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PLEASE HELP ME SOLVE A MYSTERY!
Posts
Raoul589
709
Raoul589
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Closeauthor=Link_2112
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" but you are suggesting it with things likeAll games get only a passing glance by default. There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game. A good recommendation, good presentation, or high downloads. Pretend that the last one is not true all you like.
I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now, but my claims are only these:
◾The number of downloads is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game.
◾Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
◾Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.
I don't have a low opinion of you. that is yet another thing you are incorrectly assuming.
I make games because I like making games. if it becomes popular, then it's only a bonus.
Please tell me. Can you select a single sentence that you have just quoted that you disagree with?
Do you agree with the first two dot-points? Take the first dot point. Can you think of any more accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game, other than number of downloads (It's not enough just to say that download count is an imperfect measure)?
Take the second dot point. What is your primary motive for making games? If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?
The three dot-points together form a valid argument, which means that if you accept the first two dot-points, which are the premises, you cannot refuse to accept the conclusion. You must show which premise is false, or show that the argument is invalid, or accept the conclusion.
Again,
author=Raoul589
Whether you like it or not and whether you admit it or not, there must exist some percentile p for which you - not the community, but you - think that p% of the games on this site are not as good as your most recent game.
This is strictly and mathematically true. It is true for you. It is true for me. It is true for Liberty as well. It cannot be otherwise. Read it carefully and literally and stop trying to extract hidden meaning from what I have written.
author=Link_2112
like you have everything figured out. and everybody is the same as the model player you have in your mind.
well...heh whether you like it or not, you're wrong. not completely wrong in that some people do care only about the things you are talking about. but wrong in thinking that everybody is that way and these are the only things that matter to everybody.
I did not say that everyone is the same. I did not say it because I do not think it. It is enough that many people fit the model that I describe. That is, the model of a player who takes into consideration number of downloads when deciding the next game that he or she will play. I would also expect this average player to be reluctant to admit he takes into account download count because it is not a flattering thing to admit (as evidenced by the response I have received, here).
author=Link_2112
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" ...
That's right, I didn't. In fact, I said the opposite (emphasis added):
author=Raoul589
Please notice that not once did I say that download numbers were particularly important (I really didn't, and I didn't say it because I don't think it), nor did I say that I judged my game or any other as crap just because it had low dowloads. Obviously, if 35 more people come along and download my game, it doesn't become 10% better. The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.
The fact is that a person who comes to this site has a choice of about 850 completed games to play. They do not have the time or interest to give every one of these games a fair chance. They have limited information with which to make a decision. So they might reason as follows:
- This game has an intriguing description. I'll try this one.
- This game has had good reviews. I'll try this one.
- This game has won a Misao. I'll try this one.
- This game has nice screenshots. I'll try this one.
- This game has a high download count. I'll try this one.
Any one of those is a shallow basis on which to judge a game. But these (types of information) are the only information a prospective player has to go on.
Now, maybe you would say that 'people who decide what game to play based on downloads are shallow. They should decide based on other measures'.
Personally, I can say without exaggeration that I feel exactly the same way about people who decide which game to play based on screenshots. It's exactly the same sort of shallow basis on which to decide the worth of a game.
Take - as an example - a couple of the reasons why Liberty 'wouldn't download my game':
author=Liberty
- The presentation is balls. Well, not balls exactly but it's not interesting either. Kentona recently released some CSS in the CSS article (found in the article section, of course) that you can use on your page to spruce it up a bit. Of course, editing it yourself to make it look like you want and fit with the theme of the game is a good idea too.
- Your logo isn't all that inspiring... a branch. Wow. Screams 'Top Quality game' doesn't it? You could whip up something better than that or at least ask someone else to. That's part of what the help forums are for. Or even a request blog (do that instead. It shows up in the help forum anyway.)
Please, please just take a few seconds to reflect on the above two statements. I'll give you time.
...
Seriously? Is whether or not I chose to use someone else's CSS layout (you mentioned the CSS as well) actually a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?
Is the quality of my logo really a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?
Or, let's look at a few things you said:
author=Link_2112
I've never heard of you or you're game. I've never heard you talk about it or anybody else talk about it. I've never seen it on the frontpage. Although I haven't been around much in the last 2 months, you're game has been out for longer than that. you probably never took part in any events, posted on others games, or even participated in forum topic conversations. I don't recognize your username or avatar.
So the fact that you have never heard of me is predictive of the quality of my game? I can honestly say that I was genuinely hurt by this paragraph. I actually have been involved in the community in small ways. I have responded to questions in these very help forums. I have reviewed a game. I have commented on a number of game pages. I have beta tested another person's game. I have downloaded and played a number of completed and uncompleted games (literally chosen with a random number generator, not chosen by number of downloads) (EDIT: and in case you're thinking it: I did these things long before submitting my game). But I guess since you have never heard of me, you shouldn't try my game. Please think carefully. This is what you are implicitly claiming. Even had I had no activity in this community before releasing my game, and I had signed up specifically to submit it, should I be 'punished' for not having been an active community member by having few people try my game? What a way to welcome newer members into the fold.
author=Link_2112
The first screen shows a lifeless town layout, default window skin, default font(is that default?), default faceset, default sprites, default everything. I could be wrong because im not familiar with VX games, but it LOOKS default and plain.
Judging that my game must not be worth playing because it mostly uses default art is shallow also. Shallow, like download count.
author=Link_2112
The dungeon looking maps are ok, but nothing outstanding. Same old VX looking graphics, which I personally don't like.
Then desert map, which looks like a fighting area. It's big and bland. It's not awful, but it's nothing special!
Then the dragon fight...the layout of the room is random and non-functional as a map. Where's the door? even if it's a closed space for fighting, have a way in and lock it. the boxes and shelf are randomly placed to make it not look like an empty square. those are just the default tiles available so you used them. The HP displays are basic bars of color with no text!! how can that be considered top 10% of quality?
The mapping design choices for those maps actually are correct in the context of the game. They may not make for pretty screenshots, but you would not thank me as a player if you couldn't fight or solve puzzles in those maps because there was random crap in the way so that the screenshot looked better.
But the point is this: you couldn't possibly know that as a prospective player, and I can't blame you for it. You have limited information when you choose whether to download my game, and you have to decide based on the limited information you have. One of those pieces of information is number of downloads.
The fact is that someone choosing a game to play has limited information about that game before they have downloaded it. Number of downloads is an indirect measure of quality, just like presentation style and logo design.
Now, I think my game is a good game. I would like lots of people to play it, because I think that most of them would enjoy it. I'm not ashamed of that. So, I want to increase the likelihood that people will download my game, because they can't experience my game unless they have downloaded it. It is necessary for people to download my (or any) game before they can experience it.
Let me restate what I have said and what I think, absolutely unambiguously:
- I don't think that number of downloads is a direct measure of quality.
- I want people to play my games, and I am not ashamed of this. I would like lots of people to play my games. I make games that I think are good so that other people can enjoy them because I care about other people. I am not interested in making a game that no one will play. Some people playing is a better outcome than no people, and more people playing is better than fewer people (everything else being equal).
- People cannot play my games unless they first download them. Therefore, I want many people to download my games, and I am not ashamed of this.
- As a related point, but not to be confused with the previous point, at least some people base their choice of whether to play a game on how many downloads a game has had. People choosing which game to play have limited time and limited information. Using download count as an indirect measure of quality is not more shallow than deciding based on logo design or CSS style or screenshots or whether default VX art is used.
- Because of this related point, I also care about download count to the extent that it will influence whether new people will download my game (a necessary pre-condition for their experiencing it.)
Please, please if you are going to reply to this, reply to what I am actually saying, not what you guess that I mean. I am not making this request rhetorically; I really mean it as a genuine request.
author=Raoul589
The mapping design choices for those maps actually are correct in the context of the game. They may not make for pretty screenshots, but you would not thank me as a player if you couldn't fight or solve puzzles in those maps because there was random crap in the way so that the screenshot looked better.
Because is either a bare-bones map or one with "random crap in the way", right? The fact that you, apparently, cannot entertain the thought that a map can be both visually appealing AND functional, and that you'd rather be here arguing endlessly about downloads rather than using this feedback to improve your map, is the reason why your game is probably not not worth downloading after all.
_
Also, you're fundamentally wrong when you say that a screenshot, or a logo, or perhaps even a CSS layout are just as shallow a way to tell the quality of a game as it is a download count. That's like telling an Architect the quality of a building can be measured just as well by how many people signs the guestbook, as by the the materials the building is actually made of. I mean, do you realize how heinous that claim would be? You're practically telling this person that the entire bulk of his knowledge as an Architect is no more valuable than the notions of people who could care less about Architecture but just happen to like the building well enough to pay it an occasionally visit...
Too much of a silly example? Ok, what I'm trying to say is that for someone who knows what he's looking at, even a single screenshot can tell lots about a game: The composition, the color choices, the attention to detail, the functionality of a map. etc. all are clues of the level of thought a person has put into a game. And in most cases it's not a stretch to assume every other aspect of the game has been paid a similar level of attention... What can a download count tell you, expect exactly that? It can be useful information, yes, but it's not something the creator is directly responsible of; Therefore, you can't assign it the same weight as any of the actual building blocks of a game.
Is the quality of my logo really a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?
Yes.
Am I being an antagonistic little dick because I am butthurt about my game underperforming whilst simultaneously dismissing all the useful and earnest advice I have been given?
Also yes.
Do I come off as an egotistical noob?
Yes ("Each minute of this is carefully crafted.")
I lost it right here.
Seriously, man, stop being a big whiny babby, man up and spruce up your gameprofile. It's not hard, and it's one of many things you can simply try. Also, using Download Count as your sole metric is not a good idea. (Trust me - I manage the site's codebase).
In other news, I should ruminate on my rise to RM stardom. There are probably lessons in there.
...actually, it was all just circumstance - I was noticed by prominent people and at an opportune time, and then just kept at it.
Yes.
Am I being an antagonistic little dick because I am butthurt about my game underperforming whilst simultaneously dismissing all the useful and earnest advice I have been given?
Also yes.
Do I come off as an egotistical noob?
Yes ("Each minute of this is carefully crafted.")
This game has won a Misao. I'll try this one.
I lost it right here.
Seriously, man, stop being a big whiny babby, man up and spruce up your gameprofile. It's not hard, and it's one of many things you can simply try. Also, using Download Count as your sole metric is not a good idea. (Trust me - I manage the site's codebase).
In other news, I should ruminate on my rise to RM stardom. There are probably lessons in there.
...actually, it was all just circumstance - I was noticed by prominent people and at an opportune time, and then just kept at it.
Because I am a helpful guy (hey, did you know I recently posted some CSS in the CSS article for reference? It can probably help you out and save you some time), I jotted down my "first impressions" of your gameprofile, uncensored!
1) Logo is blurry, ugly, tells me nothing about the game, and occupies 70% of the vertical space of your initial gameprofile. This obscures the important content of your gameprofile (description, screenshots, data) by pushing it down past the visible screen real-estate. It also speaks to your unfamiliarty with how gameprofiles work and your cavalier attitude towards them - "Oh this logo is big and dumpy and causes my gameprofile to be pushed way down. Oh well, I can't be bothered to remedy that." My gut assumption based on that is that you've applied that same lazy cavalier attitude into your game, so I am not going to bother to waste my time.
2) hmm! 351 downloads. That's pretty good for a game I've never heard of.
3) 4 stars, nice.
4) Description is decent, but the guy comes off as a bit big-for-his-britches. "from scratch", "not cliches", "twenty-three scripted spells" "<list of contextless spellnames>", " defy classification", " Each minute of this is carefully crafted." lol c'mon man! What I am hearing is "I am a blowhard and you should be so lucky as to experience my game!"
5) No blog. This game might be a dump-and-run (ie- a developer who posted his game and then left to never return)
6) Those are some pretty generic looking screenshots. I have little inclination to inspect any further screenshots on your Images page if this is the best you can display.
7) "Please download the game from the link above." well, duh.
8) Dont do it......I got an immediate virus infection alert. I need to run my AV stuff to see if it actually did anything. Be advised!" YIKES and YIKES!
9) Oh okay, false alarm.
10) Hey it looks like people enjoyed this.
EDIT:
it took me a long time to get to a favorable impression of your game. I doubt that the many passer's by that visit RMN will give it so much. Try to change it from "10) Hey it looks like people enjoyed this." to "3) Hey I might enjoy this!". You already have a leg up with decent download count and a 4-star review!
EDIT2:
okay, update 2. I took a look at your mini-blurb in the game's list, and it needs work too
-Get a new Main image - even just one with a sexy logo on an artsy background. Right now it looks like "My frist RPG gam."
"An original action RPG with a unique battle system and focused plot. No filler."
Thoughts:
original? not likely.
what's so unique about it? that tells me nothing
focused on what?
hey I like filler
You used a remarkable number of adjectives to tell me absolutely nothing about your game! If you saw this on the back of a game box at Gamestop, would you buy it?
1) Logo is blurry, ugly, tells me nothing about the game, and occupies 70% of the vertical space of your initial gameprofile. This obscures the important content of your gameprofile (description, screenshots, data) by pushing it down past the visible screen real-estate. It also speaks to your unfamiliarty with how gameprofiles work and your cavalier attitude towards them - "Oh this logo is big and dumpy and causes my gameprofile to be pushed way down. Oh well, I can't be bothered to remedy that." My gut assumption based on that is that you've applied that same lazy cavalier attitude into your game, so I am not going to bother to waste my time.
2) hmm! 351 downloads. That's pretty good for a game I've never heard of.
3) 4 stars, nice.
4) Description is decent, but the guy comes off as a bit big-for-his-britches. "from scratch", "not cliches", "twenty-three scripted spells" "<list of contextless spellnames>", " defy classification", " Each minute of this is carefully crafted." lol c'mon man! What I am hearing is "I am a blowhard and you should be so lucky as to experience my game!"
5) No blog. This game might be a dump-and-run (ie- a developer who posted his game and then left to never return)
6) Those are some pretty generic looking screenshots. I have little inclination to inspect any further screenshots on your Images page if this is the best you can display.
7) "Please download the game from the link above." well, duh.
8) Dont do it......I got an immediate virus infection alert. I need to run my AV stuff to see if it actually did anything. Be advised!" YIKES and YIKES!
9) Oh okay, false alarm.
10) Hey it looks like people enjoyed this.
EDIT:
it took me a long time to get to a favorable impression of your game. I doubt that the many passer's by that visit RMN will give it so much. Try to change it from "10) Hey it looks like people enjoyed this." to "3) Hey I might enjoy this!". You already have a leg up with decent download count and a 4-star review!
EDIT2:
okay, update 2. I took a look at your mini-blurb in the game's list, and it needs work too
-Get a new Main image - even just one with a sexy logo on an artsy background. Right now it looks like "My frist RPG gam."
"An original action RPG with a unique battle system and focused plot. No filler."
Thoughts:
original? not likely.
what's so unique about it? that tells me nothing
focused on what?
hey I like filler
You used a remarkable number of adjectives to tell me absolutely nothing about your game! If you saw this on the back of a game box at Gamestop, would you buy it?
3. Write the Elevator PitchOnce you’ve described the (game) to yourself – which means being able to describe the entire basic concept of the game in one paragraph, with one or two features at most – it's time to refine it.
Pretend you need to convince a major publisher executive of the viability of your game during a chance meeting in an elevator. You have ten seconds. Can you describe your game so enthusiastically, so interestingly, so mindblowingly that in that brief moment you could score a huge upfront royalty payment and publishing contract?
Write this elevator pitch down. Edit it. Make it shorter. Pretend, instead of the above scenario, this would be the text copy of the back of your game's box if it was sitting on a store shelf. Imagine a gamer picking up the box and turning it around. They have hundreds of other games to choose from, but they've decided to give you a dozen seconds of their time to considering yours. Does this pitch sell the game?
If you read it to a friend (or even better, a stranger) are they intrigued? Excited? Enthusiastic? If you can say yes to these questions you know you're on to something good.
Just for fun, and to illustrate all my points, I'm going to show you my work-in-progress for a recent game I made. The elevator pitch at the beginning went something like this:
"You are the villain. Two lovers desperately want to embrace each other. Your mission is to keep them apart by building walls that drive them farther apart without ever making it impossible. A turn-based strategy puzzle game based on A-star pathfinding."
My first impression is the same as everyone else's - that title screen is doing you no favors. It doesn't pop at all (brown letters on light-brown/gray), doesn't seem telling of your game at all (and I hope it isn't), and shouldn't be the first thing people see.
If the action-packed combat is the focus of your game, your marketing would benefit way, way more from a short gameplay video than any number of screenshots.
As an aside, I trust reputation, reviews and almost every other factor over # of downloads. I liked V&V a lot, so it's way more likely that I'll try anything Craze comes out with. This is unfair to newcomers, but such is life!
Anyway, those Crocker rules... What a crock, am I right?
If the action-packed combat is the focus of your game, your marketing would benefit way, way more from a short gameplay video than any number of screenshots.
As an aside, I trust reputation, reviews and almost every other factor over # of downloads. I liked V&V a lot, so it's way more likely that I'll try anything Craze comes out with. This is unfair to newcomers, but such is life!
Anyway, those Crocker rules... What a crock, am I right?
Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
You've presumed wrong! That's just a bonus.
Okay wow, after reading your short blurb I decided to re-read your game's description. You somehow managed to write like 800 words and not tell me any pertinent information about your game.
waaah why aren't people playing my game?
I say why should they? you've presented to them absolutely nothing. Why should they play a nothing?
You've presumed wrong! That's just a bonus.
Okay wow, after reading your short blurb I decided to re-read your game's description. You somehow managed to write like 800 words and not tell me any pertinent information about your game.
waaah why aren't people playing my game?
I say why should they? you've presented to them absolutely nothing. Why should they play a nothing?
Don't forget that when there's 1000+ games to look through and almost 200 at 4+ stars, you really can't expect people to read your page for more than 30 seconds... and I'd bet the average is more like 5 seconds. It's pretty common knowledge in web UX design that your visitors have terrible attention spans and it's your job to sink hooks in 'em quick.
So, design your page to look sexy to people within the first 5 seconds.
So, design your page to look sexy to people within the first 5 seconds.
amerk
2539
author=Raoul589author=LibertyI have to agree with this above bit. When I first joined here a few years ago, there seemed to be quite a decent amount of people willing to review games (myself included), but that seems to have died off quite a bit.
I don't think that's true. I could go to any game with no reviews right now, give it a 2 star review, and almost no one would ever look at it again. The requirement to review a game in order to rate it puts up such a high barrier that only the most motivated community member will write a review. Here are some statistics:
- Hero's Realm (the most reviewed game) has been downloaded 20,608 times, and reviewed 15 times, which means that 0.07% of the people who have played Hero's Realm have rated it.
- Legionwood (the most downloaded game) has been downloaded 22,382 times, and reviewed 5 times, which means that 0.02% of the people who have played Legionwood have rated it.
Perhaps if a person could just rank a game between 1 and 10 stars without having to write a review, more people would do so. We could still continue to do reviews but keep it separate from the ranking. This way a review would be based on a written opinion by the player, and not so much a numbers game.
TheNecromancer
3160
I never said any other aspect was better at determining the number of people that played your game.
author=Raoul589
Please tell me. Can you select a single sentence that you have just quoted that you disagree with?
I can pick more than one:
--
All games get only a passing glance by default.
There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game.
I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now(I can only speak for myself on this one xD)
Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.
--
I'm not going to bother going into detail as I don't want to get deeper into this.
Do you agree with the first two dot-points?
no, I don't. just the first one because of what you said next.
Take the first dot point. Can you think of any more accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game, other than number of downloads (It's not enough just to say that download count is an imperfect measure)?
and only because you are referring to how many experienced your game, and not the determination of quality before downloading
Take the second dot point. What is your primary motive for making games? If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?
my primary motive is to be able to determine what gameplay elements a game has. its fun to think of things. I have ideas for at least a dozen games, plus a have half a dozen games that aren't finished because the idea process is the most interesting part. once you start coding it gets out of hand and becomes less fun.
I cant think of a realistic scenario in which the world would exist that would prevent ppl from playing my game, so why even put thought into how this would play out?
The three dot-points together form a valid argument, which means that if you accept the first two dot-points, which are the premises, you cannot refuse to accept the conclusion. You must show which premise is false, or show that the argument is invalid, or accept the conclusion.
I don't accept the first 2 points. the first point is kind of an obvious statement. the second is you presuming things and apparently using it as a support for your entire argument.
the reason I think it's wrong is because, as many of us have been explaining over and over, there are more things to consider than downloads.
author=Raoul589
This is strictly and mathematically true. It is true for you. It is true for me. It is true for Liberty as well. It cannot be otherwise. Read it carefully and literally and stop trying to extract hidden meaning from what I have written.
I wasn't trying to extract hidden meaning. I only referenced it to highlight your attitude coming into this discussion.
but really...you can't make any kind of statement and say it applies to everybody(except things like, we all need oxygen to live). no matter what. human beings are more complex then you want to admit and there will be some people who don't give a thought to how their product compares to others. they don't care. some people don't even look at other ppls stuff so they can't even subconsciously populate that number.
I did not say that everyone is the same. I did not say it because I do not think it. It is enough that many people fit the model that I describe. That is, the model of a player who takes into consideration number of downloads when deciding the next game that he or she will play. I would also expect this average player to be reluctant to admit he takes into account download count because it is not a flattering thing to admit (as evidenced by the response I have received, here).
in the quote above, you did say everyone is the same(in comparing their game to others) xD
how do you know that even 'many' people fit that model? how many people did you ask and what were the results.
its pretty convenient that the average player wouldn't admit to it, so there's no way to prove you wrong hehe
That's right, I didn't. In fact, I said the opposite (emphasis added):author=Raoul589
Please notice that not once did I say that download numbers were particularly important (I really didn't, and I didn't say it because I don't think it), nor did I say that I judged my game or any other as crap just because it had low dowloads. Obviously, if 35 more people come along and download my game, it doesn't become 10% better. The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.
I wouldn't call that the opposite. you still place a high value on download count. even if its only to trick others into thinking its a good game.
The fact is that a person who comes to this site has a choice of about 850 completed games to play. They do not have the time or interest to give every one of these games a fair chance. They have limited information with which to make a decision. So they might reason as follows:
- This game has an intriguing description. I'll try this one.
- This game has had good reviews. I'll try this one.
- This game has won a Misao. I'll try this one.
- This game has nice screenshots. I'll try this one.
- This game has a high download count. I'll try this one.
Any one of those is a shallow basis on which to judge a game. But these (types of information) are the only information a prospective player has to go on.
underlined for emphasis. you keep focusing your argument on a single aspect. we keep saying that there are many things to look for.
yes, any one of those is a shallow basis. that's why you do your best to make all of those things the best they can be. so when someone visits your gamepage and looks through each of them, they see quality.
lets rework your thought:
So they might reason as follows:
- This game has an intriguing description.
and
- This game has had good reviews.
and
- This game has nice screenshots.This must be good!
Now, maybe you would say that 'people who decide what game to play based on downloads are shallow. They should decide based on other measures'.
you called it!
Personally, I can say without exaggeration that I feel exactly the same way about people who decide which game to play based on screenshots. It's exactly the same sort of shallow basis on which to decide the worth of a game.
it's not the same, because the download count is just a number. I already went over the various things that skew that number AND just because many people downloaded the game it doesn't mean they liked it or that the game was good. the screenshots are direct evendince of what you will see when you load up the game.
its not the same and it never will be.
Take - as an example - a couple of the reasons why Liberty 'wouldn't download my game':
Seriously? Is whether or not I chose to use someone else's CSS layout (you mentioned the CSS as well) actually a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?
nobody is suggesting that. your picking one small thing out of a whole bunch again and bringing to an extreme.
but, if you did just use someone else's CSS layout you might appear lazy. if you managed to do something unique and cool, then it would reflect on your ability and therefore have a real measurable indication of the quality of the game. if you demonstrate a good sense of design on the game page, then it's reasonable to think you can do the same in the game. you can't say the inverse in true. just because you don't or can't make a good css, it doesn't mean you can't make a good game.
even if it's a small measure of your skill, it alone is not going to get you more downloads.
Is the quality of my logo really a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?
no one thing is going to predict the quality of your game. logo or downloads. but the logo, like css, is a direct example of your sense of design. if your good at art or photoshop, then your game will have pretty graphics. if you have a shit logo, then your game will probably also have shitty graphics. either way, it's just one thing on a list that people look at. so having more good points in that list will be more likely to land you a download.
the reason downloads can't do that, is because even bad games get high downloads. that point has already been made and many examples can be given. not to mention the fact that you yourself can click the download button all day(only once an hour on RMN, tyvm) to inflate the download count. so when you first posted the game, it was crap. but now that you've inflated it to 3000 download, it's better :)
someone can look at the download count, then see a shitty game in every other aspect and they are smart enough to figure out that download count for this game means jack shit.
So the fact that you have never heard of me is predictive of the quality of my game?
again, something else I did not say. I was merely stating that you have little to no "street cred". having a good reputation for making good games and good art or good anything, will make people think "hmm, his games are probably pretty good too. I should check them out".
I can honestly say that I was genuinely hurt by this paragraph. I actually have been involved in the community in small ways. I have responded to questions in these very help forums. I have reviewed a game. I have commented on a number of game pages. I have beta tested another person's game. I have downloaded and played a number of completed and uncompleted games
hey, that's great. keep at it then, and maybe you'll wow some people enough for them to recommend your games.
But I guess since you have never heard of me, you shouldn't try my game.
never said that, or even (meant to)suggested it. but, since you are an unknown dev, I'm not drawn to your games in the way I might be drawn to play a game by someone like Craze or Deckiller. without even seeing their game page, I know that they know their shit so the game is going to be solid. although it'll probably be VX RTP so I wont wanna play ;P
Please think carefully. This is what you are implicitly claiming.
naw, this is what YOU'RE implicitly claiming
Even had I had no activity in this community before releasing my game, and I had signed up specifically to submit it, should I be 'punished' for not having been an active community member by having few people try my game? What a way to welcome newer members into the fold.
I can give you a perfect example. Rastek. creator of the game Wither. he came in as an unknown dev, posted a little Gameboy looking game, and it exploded. it was insanely popular and was featured on other sites like Rock Paper shotgun.. orsomething, whatever that site is. when that happened his download count went up by 1000 in about a week. because it was a good game and it got major publicity. the reviews poured in about how awesome it was, and the comments were just as glowing.
he came in and showed his game to the world and it stood up on its own 2 legs and said "play me. twice"
Judging that my game must not be worth playing because it mostly uses default art is shallow also. Shallow, like download count.
i'm not judging it because is uses the default art. im judging it because I've played many games that use the default art and they almost always suck or don't have anything outstanding. I need outstanding. other people are more lenient but not me. I've been gaming far too long and my interest is waning enough without having to sit through more crap. if something doesn't use the default art then I know that the person put effort into it and it's more likely to better. it doesn't it will be better, its simply more likely.
The mapping design choices for those maps actually are correct in the context of the game. They may not make for pretty screenshots, but you would not thank me as a player if you couldn't fight or solve puzzles in those maps because there was random crap in the way so that the screenshot looked better.
alterego covered this well enough :)
But the point is this: you couldn't possibly know that as a prospective player, and I can't blame you for it. You have limited information when you choose whether to download my game, and you have to decide based on the limited information you have.
try this thought on for size...what if you gave me more pieces of information and better pieces of information for me to base my opinion on? perhaps I would choose to overlook some of the perceived negatives and give it a shot.
One of those pieces of information is number of downloads.
1 out of like 10
The fact is that someone choosing a game to play has limited information about that game before they have downloaded it. Number of downloads is an indirect measure of quality, just like presentation style and logo design.
again, no. they are not equal. you can fluff a download count. you can't fake a good quality map and graphics and logo.
Now, I think my game is a good game.
tell us why! show us why! kentona has much to say about this.
I would like lots of people to play it, because I think that most of them would enjoy it. I'm not ashamed of that. So, I want to increase the likelihood that people will download my game, because they can't experience my game unless they have downloaded it. It is necessary for people to download my (or any) game before they can experience it.
by doing the many things we're telling you, you can get those downloads. you can't put the cart before the horse and expect to make it to the next town over by nightfall...(whut?)
anyways, it's been a blast and i'm moving on. i'l definitely keep following this thread
<3
Raoul589
709
Okay, I'll summarise my position a little more succintly and unambiguously.
Read into my hidden intentions all you like. I have not been convinced by your counterarguments with respect to these three claims. Saying 'download count is only one imperfect measure among others' does not refute any of these three claims.
Actually, the first two points are premises, and the third is the conclusion. Together they form a valid argument. The more 'obvious' the premises, the better.
I certainly can. There are an infinite number of such statements. Here are a few:
These statements are strictly and mathematically true. I know that they apply to you, because they apply to everyone. Any one of these statements is true whether you like it or not, and in fact whether or not you understand how mathematics works.
Yes it is. CSS layout is one measure among many that it predictive of the quality of a game, and people will tend to download games that they predict will be high quality.
Just like bad games can have a cool title logo, bad games can have pretty sprites, bad games can have good CSS layout, bad games can be advertised everywhere, bad games can have a good review...
But all of these things are predictive of the quality of a game.
Exactly. And download count is one of those 'good points'.
In other words, download count correlates with quality. Download count is a measure which is indirectly predictive of quality. You have just used it as such a measure.
Exactly. The use of default art is predictive of low quality. As is a low download count.
Just like high download count.
You can fake a good logo by getting someone else to do it for you. After all, do we at least agree that if I went and changed my logo now, the quality of my game would not change?
I'm glad we agree now that it is a factor. That's progress.
I started this thread to find out how to convey this, and then I was attacked for claiming that I thought my game was really good. I did not choose for it to devolve into an argument. I'm not trying to argue you into downloading my game, I'm trying to persuade you that pursuing downloads is not a vain or unworthy goal.
The problem with this thread as it currently stands is that there are two discussions going on. The first is a discussion about what I should do to get more downloads of his game, but the second is a discussion about why pursuing downloads isn't a worthy goal. In the quote you took from me there, I was engaging in the second discussion (why I think pursuing downloads is legitimate), and you frustratingly switched it back to the first discussion (how I can get more downloads). If I start talking about how to get more downloads, you'll switch it back to: 'Oh, how vain! Downloads are not a measure of quality!'
The numbers of signatures in the guestbook is certainly a better measure of the quality of the building than how good the logo on the front of the building is. In fact, if you were allowed to only know one thing about a building, the number of people who visit it each day is probably one of the most predictive measures.
- Download count is important because we all want our games to be played by real people and real people cannot play our games unless they download them. Download count is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have played your game.
- Download count is also an indirect, imperfect measure that is somewhat predictive of game quality. Does any of you really think that download count has zero correlation with download quality?
- Some non-trivial portion of prospective players will treat download quantity as somewhat predictive of game quality, and this will influence how likely they are to try a game. For this reason as well, I care about download count (see point one).
Read into my hidden intentions all you like. I have not been convinced by your counterarguments with respect to these three claims. Saying 'download count is only one imperfect measure among others' does not refute any of these three claims.
author=Link_2112
I don't accept the first 2 points. the first point is kind of an obvious statement. the second is you presuming things and apparently using it as a support for your entire argument.
Actually, the first two points are premises, and the third is the conclusion. Together they form a valid argument. The more 'obvious' the premises, the better.
author=Link_2112
but really...you can't make any kind of statement and say it applies to everybody(except things like, we all need oxygen to live
I certainly can. There are an infinite number of such statements. Here are a few:
- You were born in some year, y1. You will die in some year, y2. Therefore, you will live for approximately (y2 - y1) years.
- Last year you earned some amount of money through income, i. For that income i, there is some p such that p% of the people in your home country earned less i. You earned in the top (100 - p)% of income.
- Assuming you have made one or more games, you have a game-that-you-completed-most-recently, g1. For any other game, g2, if you were made to guess whether g1 is better than g2 on whatever information you had, you would have to guess that g2 is either (not as good as g1), (as good but not better than g1) or (better than g1). You could do this with every game on this site. At the end of doing so, you would have some number of games that you guess are better than your game, some number that you guess are the same quality, and some number that you guess are lower quality. The percentile p at which you believe your game falls can be calculated from this. It will be some number between 0 and 100. Even if you had never seen another game in your life, you could still take a guess at p, and p would be some real number between 0 and 100.
These statements are strictly and mathematically true. I know that they apply to you, because they apply to everyone. Any one of these statements is true whether you like it or not, and in fact whether or not you understand how mathematics works.
author=Link_2112
{With reference to CSS layout} ...even if it's a small measure of your skill, it alone is not going to get you more downloads.
Yes it is. CSS layout is one measure among many that it predictive of the quality of a game, and people will tend to download games that they predict will be high quality.
author=Link_2112
the reason downloads can't do that, is because even bad games get high downloads.
Just like bad games can have a cool title logo, bad games can have pretty sprites, bad games can have good CSS layout, bad games can be advertised everywhere, bad games can have a good review...
But all of these things are predictive of the quality of a game.
author=Link_2112
so having more good points in that list will be more likely to land you a download.
Exactly. And download count is one of those 'good points'.
author=Link_2112
when that happened his download count went up by 1000 in about a week. because it was a good game and it got major publicity. the reviews poured in about how awesome it was, and the comments were just as glowing.
he came in and showed his game to the world and it stood up on its own 2 legs and said "play me. twice"
In other words, download count correlates with quality. Download count is a measure which is indirectly predictive of quality. You have just used it as such a measure.
author=Link_2112
im judging it because I've played many games that use the default art and they almost always suck or don't have anything outstanding
Exactly. The use of default art is predictive of low quality. As is a low download count.
author=Link_2112
if something doesn't use the default art then I know that the person put effort into it and it's more likely to better. it doesn't it will be better, its simply more likely.
Just like high download count.
author=Link_2112
again, no. they are not equal. you can fluff a download count. you can't fake a good quality map and graphics and logo.
You can fake a good logo by getting someone else to do it for you. After all, do we at least agree that if I went and changed my logo now, the quality of my game would not change?
author=Link_2112
One of those pieces of information is number of downloads. (Me, quoted)
1 out of like 10
I'm glad we agree now that it is a factor. That's progress.
author=Link_2112
Now, I think my game is a good game. (Me, quoted out of context)
tell us why! show us why! kentona has much to say about this.
I started this thread to find out how to convey this, and then I was attacked for claiming that I thought my game was really good. I did not choose for it to devolve into an argument. I'm not trying to argue you into downloading my game, I'm trying to persuade you that pursuing downloads is not a vain or unworthy goal.
author=Link_2112
by doing the many things we're telling you, you can get those downloads.
The problem with this thread as it currently stands is that there are two discussions going on. The first is a discussion about what I should do to get more downloads of his game, but the second is a discussion about why pursuing downloads isn't a worthy goal. In the quote you took from me there, I was engaging in the second discussion (why I think pursuing downloads is legitimate), and you frustratingly switched it back to the first discussion (how I can get more downloads). If I start talking about how to get more downloads, you'll switch it back to: 'Oh, how vain! Downloads are not a measure of quality!'
author=alterego
That's like telling an Architect the quality of a building can be measured just as well by how many people signs the guestbook, as by the the materials the building is actually made of. I mean, do you realize how heinous that claim would be? You're practically telling this person that the entire bulk of his knowledge as an Architect is no more valuable than the notions of people who could care less about Architecture but just happen to like the building well enough to pay it an occasionally visit...
The numbers of signatures in the guestbook is certainly a better measure of the quality of the building than how good the logo on the front of the building is. In fact, if you were allowed to only know one thing about a building, the number of people who visit it each day is probably one of the most predictive measures.
TheNecromancer
3160
omg haha ok, well it's true I am done arguing that point. after reading that post and looking back over the entire thread, I do have some things i'd like to say about your apparent view on how this whole 'posting games online' thing works.
tomorrow. it's late.
thread, please don't die on me
tomorrow. it's late.
thread, please don't die on me
If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?
Fuck yes. Because gam mak is fucking fun. I have quite a number of projects I've started that I'll never show off because I either don't want to or just haven't got enough to show (and never will). I still mess around with them from time to time, too, because, hell, it's fun to do so.
Also, I'd like to refer you to THIS TOPIC which might help you get over your love of download numbers as a base of being able to tell what's best or not.
Also, check out a little game called Final Tear 3 and tell me if it warrants the amount of downloads it has or not. Be prepared - it takes 20 hours before the story 'gets good' or so the author says.
Also: Think MacDonalds = download count. It may get a lot of people through the gates but that doesn't make it quality food now, does it? Just trashy shit that tastes good and is fast to nom. Can't compare to an expensive 5-star meal. Just chew on that for a bit, eh~
Fuck yes. Because gam mak is fucking fun. I have quite a number of projects I've started that I'll never show off because I either don't want to or just haven't got enough to show (and never will). I still mess around with them from time to time, too, because, hell, it's fun to do so.
Also, I'd like to refer you to THIS TOPIC which might help you get over your love of download numbers as a base of being able to tell what's best or not.
Also, check out a little game called Final Tear 3 and tell me if it warrants the amount of downloads it has or not. Be prepared - it takes 20 hours before the story 'gets good' or so the author says.
Also: Think MacDonalds = download count. It may get a lot of people through the gates but that doesn't make it quality food now, does it? Just trashy shit that tastes good and is fast to nom. Can't compare to an expensive 5-star meal. Just chew on that for a bit, eh~
Raoul589
709
author=Liberty
If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?Fuck yes. Because gam mak is fucking fun. I have quite a number of projects I've started that I'll never show off because I either don't want to or just haven't got enough to show (and never will). I still mess around with them from time to time, too, because, hell, it's fun to do so.
Also, I'd like to refer you to THIS TOPIC which might help you get over your love of download numbers as a base of being able to tell what's best or not.
Also, check out a little game called Final Tear 3 and tell me if it warrants the amount of downloads it has or not. Be prepared - it takes 20 hours before the story 'gets good' or so the author says.
Also: Think MacDonalds = download count. It may get a lot of people through the gates but that doesn't make it quality food now, does it? Just trashy shit that tastes good and is fast to nom. Can't compare to an expensive 5-star meal. Just chew on that for a bit, eh~
This survey does not actually answer my claim, because I have not claimed that number of downloads is the deciding factor, only that it is a factor. For instance, if I did the survey (and I'm the guy who you're proving wrong, remember?) I would not choose downloads; I would choose reviews. LockeZ is a voice of reason here:
author=LockeZ
This would be better as a vote with multiple answers. Maybe a ranking. I mean, no one cares more about the presentation and visual quality of the page that the game is hosted on than they do about the presentation and visual quality of the game itself. So that's never gonna get any votes, except possibly just to spite me for posting this. But that doesn't mean it's not a major factor on some people's lists.
Also, page presentation, hype, and several others of these things are more subconscious influences than conscious ones. We're told not to judge a book by its cover and not to pay attention to hype, and we claim we don't, and we try not to, but we do it anyway by accident sometimes.
However, the survey does constitute some small amount of weak evidence for your claim.
Before taking this survey too seriously, I would want to see an effort to reduce response bias (see the second paragraph of LockeZ's comment), as well as non-response bias, which is a confusingly named but distinct concept (where are the responses from people who don't have an account on this site, but who come here to download games?). I would also want to see a statistically significant sample size.
However, if you did mitigate these statistical problems and the distribution still came out as it is now, I would change my mind about download count being a factor in other people - on this site, at least - deciding whether to play a game. That is if you did a proper survey, which I am fairly confident that you will not make the effort to do.
In such a situation, I would still hold this claim: download count is important to me as well as many other people as a measure of how many people have played their games. This would remain as my primary reason for caring about download count. I don't think it is particularly noble that you make games only for your own pleasure. I don't particularly like making games; I make them anyway for the benefit of others. I don't see why you consider this such a suspicious motive. Make fun of my efforts to provide good games to others all you like; this isn't some sort of morally reprehensible motive.
The second thing I would do if the results truly came out in this way would be to cease involvement with this site. I am not interested in focusing my efforts on making pretty screenshots and networking. Perhaps you don't find it distressing that almost no one voted for 'game description', 'comments', 'score', 'reviews', or 'features', but I do. Personally, I think that you should be ashamed, not proud, if you do a proper survey and find that by far the greatest consideration of the community is screenshots. It is they that are the equivalent of a meal at McDonalds.
You can make a topic too, if you want to get your exact answer. Go for it.
Frankly, the reason behind that poll wasn't to do with this topic but to look at what on the site, if anything, can be looked at to enhance. Just seeing what people do look at and what isn't necessary.
I dunno, man, screenshots can show many pieces of your game - effort, writing ability, graphical ability, atmosphere, etc. A range of them can be pretty good indication of what quality a game has. It's a pretty major factor for most people and I'm not ashamed to say that I factor look as a determination as to whether I'll play a game, mainly because I don't like bare-ass maps and mis-matched graphics.
Many games I've checked when it came to screens vs quality tended to be as I thought they would via checking out the screens. Not to say that there weren't some which didn't indicate the quality within, but most of the time they're a very good indication.
And if you say you don't look at a game's graphics before choosing to play or not you're flat out lying. The visual representation of a game is what we, as players, look at and it's the easiest indicator of decent game creation. When added with other things (game page presentation, written information, comments, reviews) it can be a great asset.
Which is why I get annoyed when new people don't realise that you should be showing off your best or at least, high-quality maps and such so that people will want to play their games and give them a chance.
More so than numbers that don't tell you if someone has gamed the system and downloaded their game 20 times (which can be done, btw) or gotten their friends to do so, or lost a download and had to redownload (I've downloaded HR about 15 times since it's release) and the like.
Frankly, the reason behind that poll wasn't to do with this topic but to look at what on the site, if anything, can be looked at to enhance. Just seeing what people do look at and what isn't necessary.
I dunno, man, screenshots can show many pieces of your game - effort, writing ability, graphical ability, atmosphere, etc. A range of them can be pretty good indication of what quality a game has. It's a pretty major factor for most people and I'm not ashamed to say that I factor look as a determination as to whether I'll play a game, mainly because I don't like bare-ass maps and mis-matched graphics.
Many games I've checked when it came to screens vs quality tended to be as I thought they would via checking out the screens. Not to say that there weren't some which didn't indicate the quality within, but most of the time they're a very good indication.
And if you say you don't look at a game's graphics before choosing to play or not you're flat out lying. The visual representation of a game is what we, as players, look at and it's the easiest indicator of decent game creation. When added with other things (game page presentation, written information, comments, reviews) it can be a great asset.
Which is why I get annoyed when new people don't realise that you should be showing off your best or at least, high-quality maps and such so that people will want to play their games and give them a chance.
More so than numbers that don't tell you if someone has gamed the system and downloaded their game 20 times (which can be done, btw) or gotten their friends to do so, or lost a download and had to redownload (I've downloaded HR about 15 times since it's release) and the like.
author=Raoul589
The numbers of signatures in the guestbook is certainly a better measure of the quality of the building than how good the logo on the front of the building is. In fact, if you were allowed to only know one thing about a building, the number of people who visit it each day is probably one of the most predictive measures.
That's silly. The building could be a Movie Theater or a Prison. People would naturally want to visit one more than the other. But when an Earthquake hits, the one building left standing is the better one. Number of visits be damned...
You're unwittingly aiding my point by taking that pot-shot about the logo in a building. You're right about it. But just like with the number of visits, the logo would also not be the direct responsibility of the Architect, but of the Graphic Designer in that case. Those are two very different disciplines. -- In the case of a Game Profiles, the logo is still YOUR responsibility. Even if you can't make your own, or if you are working on a team; the logo would still have to fit/be-done based on YOUR ides as the lead developer. Neglect that or any other area of the game (no matter how small) in which YOU are expected to take diligence, and people will take notice of it.
author=Raoul589
I think that you should be ashamed, not proud, if you do a proper survey and find that by far the greatest consideration of the community is screenshots. It is they that are the equivalent of a meal at McDonalds.
Dude, staph! Seriously. You don't know what you're talking about... To begin with, the whole of RMN was built around Game Profiles. That's what took us apart from most other RM communities. We have Profiles to showcase all the good qualities of a game, including graphics. Yes, graphics are important. That's the reason why we have a Screenshots Topic and a section for feedback in the Development Portal. That's also why we're trying to encourage an enviroment of critical thinking, to avoid things stopping at a "Oh, shiny graphics!" level. -- The fact that you keep insisting that all these efforts are inferior or equal to download counts, is mind-blowing!
