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CloseFeature lists have been around forever but they often don't mean jack because they're completely removed from the context of the game. When I read "super unique alchemy system", it tells me nothing about why an alchemy system makes the game more fun. These are also frequently exaggerated, I've found. A description can be more useful but also suffers from the same problems.
Comments are the poor man's source for opinion. Everyone's got one and nothing's stopping them from posting haphazardly. They can be useful for certain information, but both positive and negative comments should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want detailed criticism and information, reviews are where it's at. Score is related to this.
Screenshots are useful because they at least show some of the care that's been put into the game. They can be exaggerated and not telling of the game, but it's harder to do than with a feature list. Video is infinitely more useful, especially if your game revolves around fast-paced action.
While number of downloads is useful to the game developer (an easy-to-understand metric, plus an ego boost and everyone needs that sometimes) it doesn't mean much to me as a player. It doesn't give me any reasons why I would like the game, it just tells me a lot of other people play it. Facebook keeps telling me about how many people play Cityville too and that hasn't convinced me yet.
---
Anyway, I make games because it's fun to make games. It's completely selfish. I try and design my games to be fun, challenging and rewarding - and seeing when they succeed is a huge validation - but in the end it's just fun to make games. It's hardly a noble endeavor. Making games for the approval of others is fine and dandy, but I doubt it's sustainable.
Comments are the poor man's source for opinion. Everyone's got one and nothing's stopping them from posting haphazardly. They can be useful for certain information, but both positive and negative comments should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want detailed criticism and information, reviews are where it's at. Score is related to this.
Screenshots are useful because they at least show some of the care that's been put into the game. They can be exaggerated and not telling of the game, but it's harder to do than with a feature list. Video is infinitely more useful, especially if your game revolves around fast-paced action.
While number of downloads is useful to the game developer (an easy-to-understand metric, plus an ego boost and everyone needs that sometimes) it doesn't mean much to me as a player. It doesn't give me any reasons why I would like the game, it just tells me a lot of other people play it. Facebook keeps telling me about how many people play Cityville too and that hasn't convinced me yet.
---
Anyway, I make games because it's fun to make games. It's completely selfish. I try and design my games to be fun, challenging and rewarding - and seeing when they succeed is a huge validation - but in the end it's just fun to make games. It's hardly a noble endeavor. Making games for the approval of others is fine and dandy, but I doubt it's sustainable.
Honestly I would listen to you just because your avatar is fucking hypnotic. I can't stop watching it.
What's with all the cat avatars lately anyway?
What's with all the cat avatars lately anyway?
Do you think having a cat avatar would get my game more downloads? (assuming I had a game (which I don't (I wonder how many levels of parentheses I can reach before this gets really confusing (I think I'm about there))))
MoonCanvas
616
author=Liberty
Well, for one, this could have been a blog post. For two, game plugs aren't allowed. You could, however, edit it to aim it more towards a general 'why don't certain games get more coverage' and/or 'how do you advertise your game better' topic.
Please do that.
But to answer your question as to why? Here's a few thoughts after checking your game page:
- Comments talk about bug issues. I mean, your last one says you fixed a bug but when your first comment is about having virus issues due to your game, you have a small problem. It might be worth it to add a line that stands out in the description area that all virus and/or bugs are fixed.
- The presentation is balls. Well, not balls exactly but it's not interesting either. Kentona recently released some CSS in the CSS article (found in the article section, of course) that you can use on your page to spruce it up a bit. Of course, editing it yourself to make it look like you want and fit with the theme of the game is a good idea too.
- Your logo isn't all that inspiring... a branch. Wow. Screams 'Top Quality game' doesn't it? You could whip up something better than that or at least ask someone else to. That's part of what the help forums are for. Or even a request blog (do that instead. It shows up in the help forum anyway.)
- Advertising elsewhere. Most games on the site that have a lot of downloads have been advertised in other forums. Since you're using VX you could advertise in quite a few places - RMWeb.com, RMVX.com, FaceBook, your own personal blog, Tumblr
- Your description doesn't really drum up any interest in the story and as it's an RPG (Action-type) a story would be appreciated. I mean, even Zelda has a story. You basically just tell us there's characters and a story but don't let us know what that is. Is it a save the world quest? A quest for redemption? Something quirky like following a rabbit down a hole or something interesting like, IDK, following a baby being protected during a war and seeing how that child is unknowingly involved in political plots and such? Or maybe just following some guy on his journey to find his father?
Who knows? You're not telling us. All I know about your game is it's supposed to be short, Homage sounds like it might be a parody or, well, homage to another game and that it involves some stick. Maybe.
- Show only the best. Your mapping is decent for the most part (some maps are bare as balls) but it's not much more than 'generic forest, generic town, generic...'. Sad as it is to say, people aren't going to consider your game in the top percentage if it doesn't have something that jumps out at them. Look at the top percentage of games on this site and compare. Yours is sadly lacking in that one thing - heart.
It doesn't help that you're not showing off anything exciting. Hell, look at the current top buzzing games. One of them - Reincarnation - is gorgeous. Just look at it. Now compare your own.
Yes, your skills might not be up to Nessy's and Hirei's but you should at least show off the best of what you have if you want to drum up more traffic.
Lastly, no. People don't consider their games the best out there (unless they've completely lost the plot or big-noting themselves or have ego issues). I know I don't. I might be proud of a few of my ones but when matched against others I know they aren't the be-all end-all.
That you bring that attitude about your game here is insulting to all those who have worked hard on their games and have just as good, if not better, looking/playing games that you. Don't think you've made the best thing ever. If your game isn't drawing people after all of this it probably wasn't as good as you thought it was. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S TERRIBLE AND A WASTE, just not as good as you seem to think.
The thing you should be aiming for is more reviews, not more downloads. Reviews will let you know what you need to change, what you need to add and what you did well. Then pick yourself up and tell yourself this:
"Next time I'll do better."
Know what, I think I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, I saw somebody compliment Liberty's experience and I just couldn't resist to butt heads here...
Liberty is wrong. This screenshot in question is probably most of the reason you get so few downloads.
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31882/
There's a file in your resource manager labeled "Window", it seems to be on default. That is unacceptable. Go get an image for a system window, label it "Window" and then export it into your system folder.
After you complete this, delete that image and replace it with an image showing your updated windows.
Shoobinator
662
author=Liberty
I dunno, man, screenshots can show many pieces of your game - effort, writing ability, graphical ability, atmosphere, etc. A range of them can be pretty good indication of what quality a game has. It's a pretty major factor for most people and I'm not ashamed to say that I factor look as a determination as to whether I'll play a game, mainly because I don't like bare-ass maps and mis-matched graphics.
Not to mention, you can show actual gameplay elements via screenshots. The amount of customization available to the player in your menu systems, types of puzzles your game might have, different types of enemies you might encounter and what they do, different skills you might be able to learn (screenshot should probably include a description) and images of the skills in action, combat in progress whether it be a cut-away turn-based battle or ABS screen are all examples. So pretty much any "feature" you can think of you can show off in some manner via screenshot. (Note: Video would be super helpful for combat as mentioned somewhere before.)
tl:dr Screenshots are super powerful and back up your bark (i.e. game description) with some bite (i.e. example of a real, implemented feature).
P.S. Really take advice from these people and internalize it. They are a great community and have a lot to offer. Speaking from personal experience, I joined this site early this year, submitted a game page and it got rejected. I then posted a topic in the forums to get more feedback on my apparently subpar mapping, (Of course, I didn't think my mapping was really THAT bad!) and the amount of responses I got was astounding, maybe like 5 pages (hey, that's a lot by my standards). I ultimately was able to make a better product by listening to viewpoints beside my own and rethinking a few things, and I became a slightly better mapper for it. The responses I got pushed me to make a product that was closer to my true vision and capabilities and farther from the result of laziness/satisfaction with a lesser product.
For the record, I recognize that # of downloads is a factor that can influence future downloads, but that does not dismiss the above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
Two things to help your page:
- Make your logo image smaller. EASY! You can even keep the branch and cobblestone if you really want to. That image could possibly have large significance in your game for all I know (haven't played it).
- Adjust the language under "Features". "Not cliches" and "defy classification" not only sound pretentious and are merely empty adjectives, but they set your game up for making it look worse than it actually is! Those are two things that are impossible to achieve (as all our work is built off of that of our predecessors, and classifications can be made even if it is a mix of categories), so you have set the bar enormously high for player expectations! (Although most people would probably just write those phrases off as empty instead of actually enormously raising their hopes.) Give a more clear, descriptive, and realistic description of why your game is fun/interesting to play. That will get more downloads than bending the truth with false advertising! (No, I don't have statistics to back this up!)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
guys the point has been made, this topic was done a week ago
Shoobinator
662
author=LockeZ
guys the point has been made, this topic was done a week ago
This topic only dates back 3 days. Besides, I was compelled to give my own perspective on the subject.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, no, I'm calling it. Time of death: four days before the topic even started. Please cease this postmortem beating as soon as possible.
Shoobinator
662
author=LockeZ
Yeah, no, I'm calling it. Time of death: four days before the topic even started. Please cease this postmortem beating as soon as possible.
I lol'd
Raoul589
709
author=Liberty
You can make a topic too, if you want to get your exact answer. Go for it.
I don't care about an exact answer. I'm just observing that your poll doesn't refute my claims.
author=Liberty
Many games I've checked when it came to screens vs quality tended to be as I thought they would via checking out the screens. Not to say that there weren't some which didn't indicate the quality within, but most of the time they're a very good indication.
I bet everything you just said would be true of download count as well. Note that you said many, not all. The same would also be true for every other factor on your poll.
author=Liberty
And if you say you don't look at a game's graphics before choosing to play or not you're flat out lying.
Where did I say this?
author=alteregoauthor=Raoul589That's silly. The building could be a Movie Theater or a Prison. People would naturally want to visit one more than the other. But when an Earthquake hits, the one building left standing is the better one. Number of visits be damned...
The numbers of signatures in the guestbook is certainly a better measure of the quality of the building than how good the logo on the front of the building is. In fact, if you were allowed to only know one thing about a building, the number of people who visit it each day is probably one of the most predictive measures.
You're unwittingly aiding my point by taking that pot-shot about the logo in a building. You're right about it. But just like with the number of visits, the logo would also not be the direct responsibility of the Architect, but of the Graphic Designer in that case.
What you are actually talking about, then, is a structural engineer, not an architect, which changes the thought experiment. If we are going to define 'better' as 'more likely to withstand an earthquake' then guestbook numbers aren't going to tell us much. If we define 'better' as 'building that is nicer to be in' or 'building that people like' or 'building that attracts people' then guestbook numbers tell us a lot.
author=alterego
The fact that you keep insisting that all these efforts are inferior or equal to download counts, is mind-blowing!
See if you can find anywhere where I said this. 'I got this general impression when I jumped on the bandwagon' doesn't count.
author=MoonCanvas
There's a file in your resource manager labeled "Window", it seems to be on default. That is unacceptable. Go get an image for a system window, label it "Window" and then export it into your system folder.
I actually had already changed the window skin, but I am grateful for the intention behind what you did. I really mean this. Thank you.
I do find it a little bit depressing that people would judge my game as amateurish just because I use the default window skin in a screenshot. After all, how hard is it to change one file in the project folder? It would be the first thing I would do if I was trying to spruce up a crappy game. The next thing I would do is put in a gimmicky lighting system (my most popular script in another forum), and then I would swap out the default tiles for someone else's custom tiles. It disgusts me how easy it would be to take the crappiest game and make the screenshots look good. I don't think my game is crappy, so I didn't concern myself too much. I see now this was a strategic mistake.
The honest truth is that I had assumed that people would be concentrating on the fact that that screenshot clearly demonstrates a scripted custom window system and a description of a non-generic, interesting spell and the fact that the player gets to choose these spells himself. Honestly, I (naively, apparently) thought that all these other things going on would be more important to a prospective player than whether I changed the default window skin. Each screenshot demonstrates a feature:
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31884/
Where is the player? Hang on, is he that mouse?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31882/
Oh look, unique spells. I wonder what it's like to control the blade? I wonder what 'blood pact' does?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP. Ugh, default window skin.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31881/
Hmm... the player is stuck. I wonder how that puzzle works?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/29212/
Look, boss fights!
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
As I said, this was clearly a strategic mistake, but knowing it does not make it less depressing to me.
author=Shoobinator
Really take advice from these people and internalize it.
You should only internalize advice that is good advice. Good advice comes with evidence and reasoned argument. Poor advice comes with pulling rank.
author=Shoobinator
They are a great community and have a lot to offer.
The people who have posted in this thread don't constitute 'the community', they are merely some of the highest status members of the community. I care just as much about the opinions of someone who has 0 points under their avatar as someone who has 10,000. Ironically, I view status points in exactly the same way as everyone here claims to view download count. The same goes for whether you are a moderator. These things do not make your claims any more or any less factually accurate.
author=Shoobinator
For the record, I recognize that # of downloads is a factor that can influence future downloads, but that does not dismiss the above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
Thank you for finding that Wikipedia article for me. I have been trying to think of what the name of the effect was.
I address this to everyone on this thread: it is easy to consider your argument watertight when you're backed up by twenty people who are all jeering at your opponent. The true test comes when the situation is reversed. I am thoroughly sick of this topic, and it has made me quite unhappy. I'm now going to think carefully about whether or not I should withdraw from this community entirely, or whether I should drop back to the sidelines and just help people whoever deserves my help. This is not a threat, and I don't care whether or not you any of you care about my decision.
Shoobinator
662
author=Raoul589
author=Shoobinator
Really take advice from these people and internalize it.
You should only internalize advice that is good advice. Good advice comes with evidence and reasoned argument. Poor advice comes with pulling rank.
author=Shoobinator
They are a great community and have a lot to offer.
The people who have posted in this thread don't constitute 'the community', they are merely some of the highest status members of the community. I care just as much about the opinions of someone who has 0 points under their avatar as someone who has 10,000. Ironically, I view status points in exactly the same way as everyone here claims to view download count. The same goes for whether you are a moderator. These things do not make your claims any more or any less factually accurate.
As always, take advice with a grain of salt. And I didn't mean to imply that the community only consists of people who have responded to this thread.
author=Raoul589
I am thoroughly sick of this topic, and it has made me quite unhappy. I'm now going to think carefully about whether or not I should withdraw from this community entirely, or whether I should drop back to the sidelines and just help people whoever deserves my help. This is not a threat, and I don't care whether or not you any of you care about my decision.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but you DID invoke Crocker's Rules from the get-go. Whether or not you stay with this site is ultimately up to you, but if game making/development is truly a passion of yours, I strongly urge you to stick with this passion and keep on improving!
MoonCanvas
616
Yeah, when people see default window skin they tend to avoid games like the black plague. I still would recommend you put up a new picture thing. Cause 350 downloads is pretty low for a 4star rated game, something has to be up so it's just a guess.
I dunno about that. The default skin for Ace is pretty damn sexy, imo, though custom skins are nice. I don't pay much attention to skins unless it's really, really bad and clashes terribly.
Shoobinator
662
author=Raoul589
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31884/Where is the player? Hang on, is he that mouse?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31882/
Oh look, unique spells. I wonder what it's like to control the blade? I wonder what 'blood pact' does?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP. Ugh, default window skin.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31881/
Hmm... the player is stuck. I wonder how that puzzle works?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/29212/
Look, boss fights!
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
You just gave yourself captions that you should add to your screens (of course, rephrased without the saracasm). But I didn't even notice that you were the mouse in that one screen, and the trees were some kind of puzzle! In fact, your game page doesn't really mention puzzles at all, so it would be worth adding esp. if puzzles are plentiful in this game.
O, to be foisted by one's own mallard! ...or something like that.
Anyway, good luck in thy future endeavors.
Anyway, good luck in thy future endeavors.
author=Roul589
If we are going to define 'better' as 'more likely to withstand an earthquake' then guestbook numbers aren't going to tell us much. If we define 'better' as 'building that is nicer to be in' or 'building that people like' or 'building that attracts people' then guestbook numbers tell us a lot.
Yeah, but that's kinda the point. You can define 'better' as any random quality you want. I realize that. But who in his right mind would choose something superfluous rather that the ability of a building not to fall over their heads at random? Ugh! Not me! xP
author=Raoul 589
I do find it a little bit depressing that people would judge my game as amateurish just because I use the default window skin in a screenshot. After all, how hard is it to change one file in the project folder? It would be the first thing I would do if I was trying to spruce up a crappy game. The next thing I would do is put in a gimmicky lighting system (my most popular script in another forum), and then I would swap out the default tiles for someone else's custom tiles. It disgusts me how easy it would be to take the crappiest game and make the screenshots look good. I don't think my game is crappy, so I didn't concern myself too much. I see now this was a strategic mistake.
Heh; Up until this point I hadn't even paid attention to the window skin, and I don't think anyone really has. Also, as much as I may hate to say this (because I actually respect Link's opinion a lot) but he's only one person. If he dislikes RTP that's his business, but that's actually one attitude we try not to encourage. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to come up with original graphics, so is fair for them to use whatever resources they have at hand. But this requires some thought too. Graphics aren't just a mask for your game, there is lots more to the Visuals department than that; and you're welcome to come over the Screenshot Topic if you want to get some tips about it.
But in the other hand, if you want to fixate over a window skin graphics comment and ragequit, I guess that can't be helped.
