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ACCEPTING CRITICISM
Posts
CashmereCat
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CloseHaha I agree with mawk as harsh as that may seem. Depending on what is defined as "destructive criticism", though. I feel like the most destructive criticism is that which fails to pinpoint the right points and ends up disliking/liking the game for the wrong reasons. If the developer is set on the right track with criticism, then it's good criticism. If they're set on the wrong track, then it's bad.
I know that I got a couple of bad feedback from members in this community, and initially I received it wrong. I didn't think they were wrong - I thought they were completely right. And they were. But I took it one step further and called myself a bad developer. I didn't really think I could make any good games from then on, and my face was downcast. But then I realized - even good developers have their bad games, right? And even if I'm a bad developer, doesn't mean it's not worth trying?
So I'm going to pick myself up and dust myself off and make a better one. And that's what criticism does to you. It helps if you take it seriously, but don't place it as an identity that because your game sucks, you can't make any other games that don't suck. And that's the truth.
I know that I got a couple of bad feedback from members in this community, and initially I received it wrong. I didn't think they were wrong - I thought they were completely right. And they were. But I took it one step further and called myself a bad developer. I didn't really think I could make any good games from then on, and my face was downcast. But then I realized - even good developers have their bad games, right? And even if I'm a bad developer, doesn't mean it's not worth trying?
So I'm going to pick myself up and dust myself off and make a better one. And that's what criticism does to you. It helps if you take it seriously, but don't place it as an identity that because your game sucks, you can't make any other games that don't suck. And that's the truth.
RyaReisender
200
I also agree with mawk.
Probably nobody read my post about it as it was too long, but I want to point out again that even "destructive criticism" as you call it is helpful.
Here I have to disagree with CashmereCat:
Obviously the game didn't steer the player in right direction.
If you don't even try to understand where those "angry" players are coming from then you will have no way to tell if you need to change something or not. Only after you understood the way of thinking you can decide to either change or to keep it because even while you see why he didn't like it, you know you are targeting a different group (whereas a different group can also just mean "yourself" - though that is only a good idea if you don't plan to sell it and don't care whether others like it or not).
I don't think there are many people who just give criticism because they are traumatized or something. If they give you any kind of criticism, that's an effort and shows they actually care for the game at least a little (even if the criticism is purely negative).
Probably nobody read my post about it as it was too long, but I want to point out again that even "destructive criticism" as you call it is helpful.
Here I have to disagree with CashmereCat:
I feel like the most destructive criticism is that which fails to pinpoint the right points and ends up disliking/liking the game for the wrong reasons.If someone gets really angry while playing your game and he sends you some kind of hate message - that surely could be because he played the game "wrong". But if he plays the game wrong or looks at it in the wrong way, is that not also at least partly the fault of the game design?
Obviously the game didn't steer the player in right direction.
If you don't even try to understand where those "angry" players are coming from then you will have no way to tell if you need to change something or not. Only after you understood the way of thinking you can decide to either change or to keep it because even while you see why he didn't like it, you know you are targeting a different group (whereas a different group can also just mean "yourself" - though that is only a good idea if you don't plan to sell it and don't care whether others like it or not).
I don't think there are many people who just give criticism because they are traumatized or something. If they give you any kind of criticism, that's an effort and shows they actually care for the game at least a little (even if the criticism is purely negative).
@Rya Yes but as a developer or as an artist in general you need to understand that the player doesnt always know whats best for them, or even what makes a good game. Say you made an extremely innovative exploration-based game, and some player comments "it was crap, needs more guns like COD". It probably doesnt need more guns like COD at all. But it does probably need a better story. You take what you need, chuck out the rest. Filter criticism.
Edit: Rereading your comment, we probably agree actually.
Edit: Rereading your comment, we probably agree actually.
author=CashmereCat
So I'm going to pick myself up and dust myself off and make a better one. And that's what criticism does to you. It helps if you take it seriously, but don't place it as an identity that because your game sucks, you can't make any other games that don't suck. And that's the truth.
Excellent; that's the mindset that you need to make a good game! It really would have been a shame if you stopped, because everyone has a unique perspective to offer. We're all imperfect as developers, but we all have games we want to bring to life. Keeping that passion alive is what makes games shine.
author=unity
Excellent; that's the mindset that you need to make a good game! It really would have been a shame if you stopped, because everyone has a unique perspective to offer. We're all imperfect as developers, but we all have games we want to bring to life. Keeping that passion alive is what makes games shine.
I think it's partly due to my overarching inspiration of being the "game maker to save the world from bad games" that stops me from truly mucking around and making the best kind of games I want to make. Little games that might not change the world, but will inspire in people a place for them to dwell and call it their own little adventure. And that's what changes people - experiences, not feature lists. Let's share experiences and let's keep it all about the little things, rather than the big things. That's what I garnered from circular development experiences and thinking more than doing. Criticism actually helped me realize that. It was part of the journey that quelled the fire, but it was the wrong fire and now I've got a smaller, stronger fire that can withstand winds. If that makes any sense whatsoever.
Crystalgate
694
author=mawk
it's really lazy and disingenuous to dismiss negative criticism as a manifestation of mental illness, crystalgate.
I dismissed destructive criticism, not negative criticism. Those two are not the same. Check my first post in this topic, I explicitly stated that not all negative criticism should be dismissed.
I never told what I meant with destructive criticism, but considering my three examples, a reasonable guess would be criticism done with the purpose to go down hard on a game rather than informing. I'd also include criticism done with the purpose to mislead among destructive criticism.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Being an asshole isn't a mental illness, it's a lifestyle.
*flex*
*flex*
author=Crystalgatedestructive or negative, that's not necessarily a reason to completely dismiss criticism.author=mawkI dismissed destructive criticism, not negative criticism. Those two are not the same. Check my first post in this topic, I explicitly stated that not all negative criticism should be dismissed.
it's really lazy and disingenuous to dismiss negative criticism as a manifestation of mental illness, crystalgate.
I never told what I meant with destructive criticism, but considering my three examples, a reasonable guess would be criticism done with the purpose to go down hard on a game rather than informing. I'd also include criticism done with the purpose to mislead among destructive criticism.
Think of it this way: Why is anyone saying your game sucks? The reason is that you did something wrong or gave them a bad experience, and unfortunately, not everyone is good at relaying exactly why they don't like a game, nor do some people care that much to take the time to thoroughly explain their concerns, but it's not like that individual's opinion is "wrong" or dismissable. If he clearly doesn't like it, then you've done something wrong with your game.
Granted, it's still frustrating to hear such unspecific and destructive critique, because it gives you absolutely no direction on where to improve, and nothing sucks more than to know that you've failed, yet have no idea what to do about it. You guys should really consider yourselves lucky that this is an environment where relatively unfiltered criticism is both welcome and commonly distributed, because just imagine how the average consumer will respond to your junk heap...
Desertopa
775
author=Ratty524
Think of it this way: Why is anyone saying your game sucks? The reason is that you did something wrong or gave them a bad experience, and unfortunately, not everyone is good at relaying exactly why they don't like a game, nor do some people care that much to take the time to thoroughly explain their concerns, but it's not like that individual's opinion is "wrong" or dismissable. If he clearly doesn't like it, then you've done something wrong with your game.
I don't think this is necessarily true. Even the best games, books, movies or whatever, aren't for everyone. You could make a really great game, and some people would still think it was terrible, not because you did a bad job, but because their tastes were totally outside the sort of audience you were targeting to begin with.
The author of xkcd is, as webcomic authors go, very successful; he makes a living off his strip, and has a substantial and enthusiastic fandom. He explicitly bases his writing philosophy on the principle that if you can make something that really appeals to just one percent of the populace, then given wide enough distribution, it'll serve you better than making something that kind of appeals to half the populace. The stuff he makes is never intended to appeal to most people.
On the other hand, it's important not to fall into the trap of convincing yourself that the people who praise your work are the only people whose opinions mattered to begin with. The fact that your work isn't meant to appeal to everyone doesn't equal a carte blanche to dismiss the opinions of the people who didn't enjoy it as irrelevant.
When critics make unqualified statements like "this game sucks" though, it makes it hard for the creator to determine whether they're dissatisfied members of the potential audience whose opinions they should be taking on board, or people who were never really part of the intended audience in the first place.
RyaReisender
200
Basically in short:
Player: "You should do A and B."
>Wrong(A)<
Developer does A and B.
>Wrong(B)<
Developer directly replies with "I'm the developer and I want it like this."
>Correct<
Developer translates what the player said in what it really is from a game design view point, think about it, act accordingly.
By the way, if someone goes so far to tell you "Your game sucks" then chances are pretty good that if you ask him, he can also tell you why. He might exaggerate and not present the best solutions but it will ALWAYS help you to see how someone could experience your game. You really EVER had someone who criticized your game but refused to give any reason?
Player: "You should do A and B."
>Wrong(A)<
Developer does A and B.
>Wrong(B)<
Developer directly replies with "I'm the developer and I want it like this."
>Correct<
Developer translates what the player said in what it really is from a game design view point, think about it, act accordingly.
By the way, if someone goes so far to tell you "Your game sucks" then chances are pretty good that if you ask him, he can also tell you why. He might exaggerate and not present the best solutions but it will ALWAYS help you to see how someone could experience your game. You really EVER had someone who criticized your game but refused to give any reason?
author=mawk
it's really lazy and disingenuous to dismiss negative criticism as a manifestation of mental illness, crystalgate.
e: you too, pianotm!
receiving criticism and extracting the salient points is just as important a skill as structuring that criticism in a useful manner. you need to be willing to meet critics halfway in these situations -- this incredibly childish and adversarial standpoint many of you seem to have is going to stunt your ability for introspection and further development, and that's a promise.
if you give yourself carte blanche to dismiss criticism that you feel isn't complimentary enough, or simply ignore uncomfortable points because 'oh, this person obviously has an agenda', you're ultimately only making yourself into a brittle reactionary who has no path forward but to stagnate.
Negative criticism vs destructive criticism.
Negative criticism:
This game has nothing but RTP music, terrible dialogue, etc, etc.
(The person has been given negative criticism, but hey, they know exactly what to improve on)
Destructive criticism:
author=TehGuy
This 'game' needs to be buried, burned, have something scary and ugly built on top of it, and sent to hell.
Though, honestly, even destructive criticism can motivate you to make a better game, if you aren't convinced to quit.
The quote in question is because the reviewer was literally trapped in a forest for like 5 hours, and couldn't figure out the way out. So yea, frustration does breed negative reviews.
author=mawk
it's really lazy and disingenuous to dismiss negative criticism as a manifestation of mental illness, crystalgate.
e: you too, pianotm!
receiving criticism and extracting the salient points is just as important a skill as structuring that criticism in a useful manner. you need to be willing to meet critics halfway in these situations -- this incredibly childish and adversarial standpoint many of you seem to have is going to stunt your ability for introspection and further development, and that's a promise.
if you give yourself carte blanche to dismiss criticism that you feel isn't complimentary enough, or simply ignore uncomfortable points because 'oh, this person obviously has an agenda', you're ultimately only making yourself into a brittle reactionary who has no path forward but to stagnate.
Mawk, I find it insulting that you could even glance at my comment and even suggest that I said anything of the sort. In fact, I have every reason to believe that you made this comment for no other reason than to edify yourself, as it is obvious that such a statement would draw attention to yourself.
Now, as proof that you are only posting to be an asshole, I submit a direct quote from the very post you criticized as "dismissing negative criticism" "carte blanche".
author=pianotm
Even if the most inept and irrational critic write's his or her drivel on the bathroom wall, there is always value in criticism. It is a gift I say. The critic has taken his or her time and spent energy on you.
author=bulmabriefs144Not a good example in the slightest. Even though the tone was harsh and it essentially offered nothing for improvement, it's an attack on the game, not the developer. In that sense, I can't say it's destructive at all.
Destructive criticism:author=TehGuy
This 'game' needs to be buried, burned, have something scary and ugly built on top of it, and sent to hell.
Biggest thing I notice with some people in the creative field is that they confuse harsh criticism with a personal attack. It's only when "you" is put into a sentence like TehGuy's quote does it become destructive.
Also, why are we name-dropping, by the way? It's pretty rude.
amerk
2539
True, but that's not to say there aren't those who wouldn't say something like that other than to troll and start a flame war. How many? I don't know, but most people who bother with a review usually offer something more constructive than that, so it's pretty moot.
But even if you get harsh criticism that you feel may be trolling, or even a personal attack, I find it best to simply thank the player/reviewer and continue on, or at least ask questions to get him to discuss in more detail. If a troll knows you're not going to bite the bait or fight back with insults, they're likely to go somewhere else.
Luckily, RMN has some standards for reviews, though, so a simple "burn the game" comment won't suffice, unless there is something more to back it up.
But even if you get harsh criticism that you feel may be trolling, or even a personal attack, I find it best to simply thank the player/reviewer and continue on, or at least ask questions to get him to discuss in more detail. If a troll knows you're not going to bite the bait or fight back with insults, they're likely to go somewhere else.
Luckily, RMN has some standards for reviews, though, so a simple "burn the game" comment won't suffice, unless there is something more to back it up.
Hey, speaking of accepting criticism, can someone please read through the comments on this review I wrote and see if I have a point? I just want to know if I'm in the right or wrong regarding this review:
Link to Review
Link to Review
Haha, I literally just read your review and skimmed through the comments before I saw this.
It sounds fair to me, given that the game itself is ten minutes long, and the author asked you for a review. I'd have to play the game myself to be absolutely certain, but I think the fact that you're going back and putting in more details is very nice of you and, like you said, the fact that you took time to play through the game and leave your criticisms (without leaving a negative score, either) shouldn't be unappreciated.
It sounds fair to me, given that the game itself is ten minutes long, and the author asked you for a review. I'd have to play the game myself to be absolutely certain, but I think the fact that you're going back and putting in more details is very nice of you and, like you said, the fact that you took time to play through the game and leave your criticisms (without leaving a negative score, either) shouldn't be unappreciated.
I agree. If you don't understand what's going on, you don't understand what's going on. That's never the fault of the audience. I don't like how handles his discussion with you. It's like a Southern insult (you know, one of those comments that's like a kiss and a slap in one). He's right to thank you, correct to address your concerns, and wrong to twist your words and say you didn't give a proper review.
Lol, I saw your comment Unity. Thanks for both of your words as well. I didn't mean to call for backup but it makes me feel better knowing that I'm not being a total egghead. I'll edit the review with more details and just leave it at that. No need to engage anymore with him, and hopefully it will just be resolved.
Just to be clear, like I said, I read the review and comments before you posted about it here. I was offended by the developer's attitude before you called it to attention and had intended to respond regardless. And you have exactly the right attitude about how to continue from here.
Housekeeping
3571
This is what's happening: that guy asked you for a review because he thinks he's a genius and he wanted you to tell him he's a genius. Since you didn't tell him he's a genius, he's wracking his brain for any possible reason why his game wasn't well-received, and so the only possible conclusion was that you must have rushed. In other words, he's a dick acting like you would expect a dick to act so you should clear your conscience and move on; your review speaks for itself.
