ACCEPTING CRITICISM

"People put a lot of effort in their games, and they expect them to be played correctly and reviewed correctly." best comment.

Also, you guys should listen to mawk. he is an expert at deflecting criticism and knows his shit.

author=amerk
So you'd rather have a poor project that's not up to standards because you don't care enough to be "bogged down" with the feedback?

You do realize comments like this make people think you don't care about your game, and drives people away from playing them, right?

Did you even read my comment? I don't keep people who are only critical. I want constructive feedback. I want a solution even if Im not going to use their solution. I want to know they care enough to say "I don't like this bit but maybe if you changed....." rather than someone who just says "That really sucked, and I hated that bit, and the music sucks..." Why does that part suck? give me an idea why, give me an idea on how to fix it. If you are just gunna be critical I wont have you play testing my games.
I never at any point said I don't listen to criticism I said I don't listen to overly negative criticism.

Edit: Having a troll give you feedback can make you feel like dropping the entire project

So, what does "accepting" criticism really means to you guys? Because for what I've seen, it simply means to nod to all form of criticism that come your way, like if it was a proof of humility to not say anything... I fundamentally disagree with this. If you think someone has given you poor criticism is perfectly reasonable to manifest your disagreement and defend your position. Otherwise, it sends the message that criticism is infallible and this is as much true as games being infallible.

I watched the whole ordeal with this Konstandin game, and I have to say that the author's initial reaction was justified. I saw Cashmere first version of the review and I agree that it was lacking in detail. Words more, words less, this is what the author wanted to let Cashmere know, and still he was mindful enough to say things like: "I'm not attacking you, I'm not offended, I respect your opinion, you don't need to amend the review, etc" Things din't need to escalate from there, and is only lamentable that they did...

Here's the thing. Just as the author later made the mistake to assume Cashmere wasn't being honest with things like the amount of time it took him to beat the game, it is also a mistake to assume someone is not being honest when they're explicitly telling you they respect your opinion, or that they're not speaking from an offended point of view. These are not grounds to antagonize that person with a "you do sound offended" or "you're being sarcastic" but rather to argument: "you're wrong and this is why".

I think is important to understand that is completely possible to have a strong opinion about something and still not being offended. And as long as things are being discussed politely, even if it that politeness feels insincere, (Although, if you ask me, politeness has never been about sincerity. xD) you have to take people's words at face value and not complicate things unnecessarily. Misunderstandings abound even without pointing finger, so really, we have nothing to gain going down that road voluntarily.
_
Now, returning to my original point, and I'm sorry this sound like a rant (because it is a rant. =P) but I really feel this is the case sometimes. People make all kinds of dismissive arguments to justify poor criticism; I see this all the time with reviews: "Reviews are subjective" "It got accepted, that means it's good enough" "I've seen worse reviews" "You should be glad someone took their time to write a review of your game" "Go write your own review!" etc. (Really, I could be here all day) But if we were to replace the word "review" for the word "game" in each of those sentences, I think we would all see how bad that looks... So I guess what I'm trying to say is that criticism is not beyond scrutiny. And that we should learn to accept criticism of our criticism too, not just criticism of our games. ;P

Mmmm. I had a similar deal with criticism recently (not for a game, real life).

Without getting into too much detail, ignoring the critics entirely is not an ideal response. The game doesn't improve, and the critic's worst fears are correct.

Even getting angry at them is preferable, though not necessarily coming across as mature. The reason for this, is that you are at the very least engaging the critic, understanding their criticism and giving your own feedback.

Or you could completely agree with the critic, but doing so enough times compromises your artistic goal (as in, the game is ideally intended to say something to the world, or it has no larger purpose, and you might as well not waste time making it). That is, if you completely try to please others, you lose yourself and wind up pleasing nobody.

These, btw are all responses a child can make. The best way to deal with criticism you don't care for is to either stand up to it and say "You're out of line" since they went into the game with the expectation that they didn't need to level at all and then got upset when the game actually had reasonable challenge, or to agree to take some but not all of their criticism.

I think my post above is clear enough, but just to reiterate: I'm not saying the guy is without fault. It's evident that as the thread progresses he starts making bolder and bolder assumptions to the point of coming across as a complete troll by the end of it (Macross image and all, even when that's against the rules) And people is right to challenge his behavior, but not by making bold assumptions of their own! I don't know, that's just feels like poor form... (Also, I'd like to wager that anyone in his position would have lost control too)

That being said, for the first two-three posts he made, I think it's easy to understand where he's coming from. And not only that, but I'm even wondering if English is his first language because he seems to word things rather awkwardly. So I'd be a little more extra willing to dismiss the first times he misspoke as simple semantics and try to work things out... but alas, drama unsued. =P

@alterego
C'moon that developer had "being offended" and "sarcastic replies" written all over his face.

Accepting criticism doesn't mean saying yes to any suggestions (in fact this is wrong as well! only say yes if you agree). It means reacting to them as if they are something positive. Because they are! They are something helpful. They help you to understand how players see your game. Even if you don't agree to them.

The problem that most developers have is that they don't see them as something positive but rather as a personal attack. And you can see it on their reactions. There are those are very blunt and are like "You didn't understand the game" or "That was completely immature" or an even more direct insult. Others try to be polite because they aren't the type to insult, but in the subtext you can read "Buhuhu, he didn't like my game =(". Then again there are those sarcasm / passive aggressive developers that give a weird comment that sounds positive but in the subtext you read something along the lines of "You are a failure in live and I hope you rot in hell for not liking my game".

But in the end it all comes down to the first thing I said: They are seeing criticism as something negative rather than something positive. Accepting criticism requires to see it as something positive.

I guess it's hard to explain it words, it's better to see examples, too bad most of them are private and often my criticism was also deleted (I'm usually sending it via e-mail and if that's not available write it on the developer's forums).


I guess here is an example on how game developers react to feedback:
http://www.blossomsoft.com/talks/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=51#p1224
In that thread I basically bring up the problem of developers using RPG Maker default assets and that players getting "fed up" with them as indie RPGs become more popular and that's why the sales on indie RPGs that use default assets stagnate.

Okay so I was wrong with Amaranthia using default assets and I completely accepted that reaction - this is a good reaction to criticism. Elder in fact goes so far and does not only say it's "wrong", he even explains why he thinks I though it was the case and why it is not. Very good.

All fine so far, I have a good talk with elder about game design no problem. That's how it works.
Then you can slowly notice he gets more and more defensive - where I don't even criticize him. He even starts telling me how much free stuff I'll get as compensation despite me not even asking for any!

Then suddenly, another developer nyx starts showing up (I assume related to Aldorlea, but not sure!). Highlight of the discussion:

Elder - There is NO reason for you to have to defend yourself. Your games are amazing IMO. Some ppl are just opinionated and do not know when to stop.

Um... okay? Opinionated huh.

Elder tries to calm it down by saying nyx refers to something else but the next post of nyx shows he is talking to me, because what else can happen now? Exactly! A developer pulling the "Don't criticize games if you can't make better games" card. Classic!

Rya - Have u ever designed/made an RPG game?

V

Name of the game?

V

I am NOT going to get into a war of words with you and this is the ONLY post I will make on this particular topic.
I checked out your game and, IMO, compared to ANYTHING from Aldorlea, Amaranthia, and Elder your game is Sophomoric.


TY

At least here you should "feel" how angry this developer is out of no reason. I didn't even criticize any game in particular but the developer wants to know the name of one of my games just to insult the game via unconstructive criticism. And I never even claimed I can make better games either. How should I even understand what "your game is sophomoric" should mean? And that reply came 16 minutes after I posted a link to the game! Doubt the person even played it.
Of course the person ignores me afterwards too.

Then it continues with me writing some criticism about Darkblood Chronicles (the original post was in another thread that was deleted). Basically it was complaining a bit about demo of the game being too buggy and the fact that while there was SO much effort put into the graphics it still using the default graphics for treasure chests and switches. It is something I see that will put off potential buyers if they look at screenshots and see it just like it did with me so I really just posted that to "hint" that if he but 2000+ hours to do the other graphics he should probably put in another 2 hours for a switch and chest sprite.

Again same story, Elder react in a good way, he doesn't fully agree to me, he points out the point in my arguments that seem to contradict. This again gives me the opportunity to explain them. This is how it should work.
Then once again another developer shows up.

You can only really complain about RPG Maker games if the developer seems to release a game each month or every other month as it shows laziness. If developers are using RPG Maker and develop a game over 9 months, then you have to give them credit that they actually put effort into it.

Isn't that one epic too?
Rephrased: Criticism is only allowed if the developer didn't put effort into making his game.
Okaaay.

If you think that an RPG Maker game should have 100% original assets, then please make a game that uses 100% unique stuff. Make a game that makes it seem like RPG Maker wasn't used.

Uh cool, here we have it again. The "Don't criticize games if you can't make better games" card! I was waiting for it, really.

You can't complain about RPG maker games using RPG Maker assets.

Apparently there are also things you are not allowed to complain about by default! Someone should write a list.

Some people don't have the money to pay for better graphics... You have to use what you are given if you cant do it yourself, and complaining about people using default assets is not very spirited. From what I am reading, you seem to think that indie developers have enough money to get their games having better stuff, and if they don't they probably use crowd funding. This isn't true. If I could have better graphics in my games, I would, but unfortunately, I don't have the money to do so. So you could either put up with the assets and enjoy an amazing story or you can just leave it at the side and wonder what you have been missing.

And here is what I meant when saying how developers react overly defensive. I feel like I strongly offended the developer at this point that he has to tell me how poor he is and that he just can't help it. I DO like the games I mentioned. The reason I give criticism is because I see potential in the games and try to help by pointing out things that could be a problem - I really don't want to offend anyone I want to help, why does someone need to react this protective?

Oh yeah and then the actual developer of Darkblood Chronicles shows up. He already reacted very offended in the other thread that is now deleted, but you can still see it in the subtext of his post:

I don't mean to come across as rude, but I just want to explain my position. The switches and chests (and other small items here and there throughout DBC) weren't that big of a deal in my mind.

Sure, because there weren't a big deal in your mind I gave that criticism! So you see it is a big deal for others.

Maybe you don't think this is the case, but if that's all it takes to break immersion, well ... I don't really know what to say.

Here the subtext is strongest. This is not accepting criticism, this is replying with the usual passive aggressive comment indicating I might be strange or dumb or something.

I appreciate the feed back, and I hope you don't take offence when I say it just isn't that big of a deal for me.

What I take as offence is the sentence before. If you don't think it's an issue then that's fine. I don't take THAT as offence. Why should I? Either I was right and your sales suck or I was wrong and your sales are good. It's a win-win situation for me as I wish the game success.

Me changing a few switches around isn't even on the priority list.

With sentences like that I really don't feel like I'm reaching the developer at all. I didn't want to inquire about the current priority list, I wanted it to be changed!

Luckily Elder is still doing everything right and closed the thread!

How the story continued:
1. I wrote a review on the full game after deciding to buy it after all to support the developer: http://www.blossomsoft.com/talks/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=84
2. Sales were bad.
3. Developer got all angry because of bad sales and removes the game from the stores.
4. Later developer said it was removed because it was pirated too much.
5. Then suddenly developer creates a kickstarter about Elder reworking his graphics (what? Elder is supposed to work on his own game!)
6. Me and other people point out why the kickstarter won't be successful in its current form, the game was already praised for graphics and criticized for other things so why make a kickstarter on reworking the graphics?
7. Upon receiving criticism on the kickstarter campaign, developer cancels the campaign. Not only that, he goes so far and deletes his kickstarter account:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2123876660/darkblood-chronicles
(read the comments for bonus fun)


Long story short, learn to accept criticism if you don't want to wake up to cruel reality unprepared.

I have a confession to make. I thought The Plunge system in The Way was good. I even cheated in the plunge system and bad mouthed anyone who thought the plunge system was bad. Instead of engaging in the discussion I covered my ears and pretended Lun was a master at making a luck based duel system that spanned for the entire game for some reason. I opted out in discussions about the quality of The Way and didn't want to clash with people who disagreed with me.

But that's kind of wrong. Because that line of thinking leads to wanting to ignore things that are contrarian to your beliefs on what a good game (your own in this case). If you can't come up with things that could be better in your game or even your favorite game then there's no room for discussion. There's not really a way to prevent people from being insecure about their own faults, because that generally develops over time and reflection, and still people have to deal with it no matter how sincere they come across when responding to a review.

To me accepting criticism is about wanting to talk about your game both the good and the bad like you would any other game. If there's a "thanks for the review" or a "fuck off you don't know shit" there's no real discussion, just someone wanting to stay in his/her own little world.

That's an interesting story, Rya! I read all of it. I overreact all the time to criticism because I inevitably take it personally. Sometimes I lash out, oftentimes I make jokes, and sometimes I get depressed. Usually I can come back to it later when I am less emotional and deal with it better - acknowledging the criticism, defending, explaining or rationalizing the criticisms I disagree with, and developing an action plan for the criticisms I feel are feasible to deal with.

Sometimes criticism is valid, but the return on the effort to change it isn't enough to address it. (many times it is because the project is finished, but sometimes it is because to change it it would take a monumental effort, and if that is the case you just have to leave it as is (or make minor changes to minimize the negative impact) and acknowledge it as a weakness of your project).

Okay, then that was just misunderstanding on my part.