ACCEPTING CRITICISM

author=Nouin
What do you want from me sir?

Here is something that you need to learn: You are not, in any shape or form, obligated to respond to his review. A simple statement like:

author=Corporation
Thank you very much your feedback.
We truly appreciate your opinion, and we will consider any changes we could make to satisfy you.

Sincerely,
Developer

That could have solve the issue easily. Many people on here have an elitist syndrome, and they aren't going hesitate to show it. You can just tell by the tone of their post. Have you ever seen any game developers directly talk to the fans or critics? Rarely. Just show them that you are aware of their feedback, and if you want them to elaborate more, just say so.

Otherwise, even if the criticism is really nasty, just copy and paste the statement above. Let them know that you acknowledge them, and move on. Instead of arguing with them, use that time to work on and improve your game. Remember, the purpose of making a game is not to satisfy these people. It is merely a hobby that you do for fun. Once you start to forget that, making games isn't fun anymore.

I am not telling you to completely ignore the review or the feedback, but if you feel like things won't escalate in a good way, it's best to not keep it going. I don't see how your comments were sarcastic. It actually seemed like they were trying to irritate you and blow things out of proportion. Nevertheless, the way you handled it wasn't professional, not at all.

author=Corfaisus
The reason why this analogy doesn't work is most men, by default, are shit. If you never tell him what needs to be said, he'll continue to not care at all about your feelings and will only act as a hindrance in your life. If you don't address why sexism/objectification is a bad thing, well, you can look at just about any time this shit has come up on the net for a reference to just how heartless men can be.

How pathetic and ironic. Are you really that desperate to get into girls' panties? So desperate that you need to continuously talk shit about men to make you look good in their eyes?

By saying that all men by default are shit and heartless, you are stereotyping and being sexist against men. You whined about sexism against women, yet, you are sexist against men at the same time. If you actually think before you bark, you would have realized that.

And if you think a little more, you would realize that women aren't the only ones being sexist against. There are many kinds of sexism against men as well. And if you think deeper, you would also realized that just because your mom got raped by a straight man, it doesn't mean all men are terrible. What are you going to whine about if your mom got raped by a lesbian chick? And if you think a little deeper, you would also realize that men are usually expected to do heavy work, pay the bills, pull chairs out for the ladies, and not as organized as women. You would also realize that what you said is just another whiney post about sexism against women, while also sexist to men. You would also realize that it has nothing to do with this thread, whatsoever. You would then finally realize that you are a pathetic immature idiot who worships women and hate your own kind.

So, are we going to fall back to the old "It's my opinion and you don't have to agree" again? By the way, speaking of which, you gave Konstanding 1 star, while another one gave it 5 stars. You, and that buddy of yours, accused him of being the developer's friend and that he was trying to help him. Let me ask you this: Did you give that game 1 star because he was your enemy, and there was some sort of revenge going on?

Feel free to call in "Mr. Piano repairer who supports equality for women but always talk shit about men" for backup. Replace the word "men" with "women", and "shit" with "stuck up whores" in your statement and the entire forum would be "ZOMG SHECSHISM!!!!" Why? Because anything negative about women is a bannable offense, but if it's for men, then that's okay. Apparently, that's how things roll around here.

Actually I disagree, a simple and sincere "thank you" is still no good reaction on criticism.

I think what Darken wrote on page 4 actually says it best:

Darken
To me accepting criticism is about wanting to talk about your game both the good and the bad like you would any other game. If there's a "thanks for the review" or a "fuck off you don't know shit" there's no real discussion, just someone wanting to stay in his/her own little world.

If you just post a "thank you", it is not only most likely sarcasm, but at the very least it can be interpreted as such. If you actually go into the details and try to talk about it then you will automatically feel a lot more sincere.

There is a big difference between:

"The game isn't scary at all and that's what ruined it for me."
"Thank you for your review."

and

"The game isn't scary at all and that's what ruined it for me."
"Ah! It seems like I couldn't give the game the horror feeling I wanted it to have, any ideas on how I could improve it?"

Let's all calm our shit, people, and get back on topic.

How do we give good feedback?
It's really different for each person. Usually I don't write reviews because 1 - I can't be fucked and 2 - I prefer doing LP/Ts instead, since I can address things when they show up and express fixes/ideas/thoughts/reactions on the fly.

Others, though, prefer to do reviews for various reasons.

Personally, I've always been one to promote the honey/stick method. It's reliable, people are more likely to listen to the advice given or at least not get their backs up about the advice and it's easy enough to do.

Honey/stick - give a little honey, whack 'em with the stick. Give a bit of good, give a bit of bad.

"This isn't scary in the slightest and that needs some major work to get the right atmosphere, but you've got some neat graphical effects that could help with that."

or

"The game has a shitload of bugs. I mean, I walked for ten minutes before I got to the door of the place I was supposed to go next... in the same map, because it lagged and the slow walk speed is a killer. Thankfully, the writing is really well done, and the characterisation is great - you really get a feel for who the characters are and each one is enjoyable in their own way. Dat lag, though..."

How best to take critique?
One thing a teacher taught me that still is relevant was how to pull out the information in a paragraph that was necessary to my goals. Pull out only the relevant parts. Let's take the below:

"Your game is shit. I hated the walk speed, it took forever to get anywhere and even when I did get where I was supposed to go the way was blocked thanks to bugs. Did you even playtest this shit? It's horrible. The only good thing in it was the writing but everything else was just bad. You should quit making games and start writing books instead."

What's relevant is not how the words are said. Pick out only the parts that apply to your game:
- the walk speed...took forever to get anywhere
- blocked thanks to bugs
- good thing ... the writing

Now what to do? Do you fire back at the reviewer? No. Ask them about the bugs, of course! If their way was hindered by bugs, of course you need to know what happened so you can fix it.

When they give you the answer (more than likely a lot politer because you didn't pick a fight back and actually are interested in what they're saying)... report their asses to the mods for that shitty review. Should never have made it past checking.

But get use out of it first. Or report first and get use out of it while waiting for a mod to respond. ;p


Oh, and for the record? Anyone sending a review like that will have it denied because fuck shit like that guys. No attacking each other or tearing each other apart please. We're a community, even if we do have issues with each other at times.

Hug~,
C--(^.^)--D

author=RyaReisender
Actually I disagree, a simple and sincere "thank you" is still no good reaction on criticism.

I think what Darken wrote on page 4 actually says it best:

Darken
To me accepting criticism is about wanting to talk about your game both the good and the bad like you would any other game. If there's a "thanks for the review" or a "fuck off you don't know shit" there's no real discussion, just someone wanting to stay in his/her own little world.

If you just post a "thank you", it is not only most likely sarcasm, but at the very least it can be interpreted as such. If you actually go into the details and try to talk about it then you will automatically feel a lot more sincere.

There is a big difference between:

"The game isn't scary at all and that's what ruined it for me."
"Thank you for your review."

and

"The game isn't scary at all and that's what ruined it for me."
"Ah! It seems like I couldn't give the game the horror feeling I wanted it to have, any ideas on how I could improve it?"

There is a difference. : ) The first one is being polite, and the second one is sucking up to the critic. Maybe if he feels the need he has to, that's the right way to go. But if they don't feel the need to, why should they?
Point is - one shouldn't try to force a personal opinion on other people, right? Forcing personal impressions and opinions on others has been reason for many wars in mankind's history. : /
Personally I would never force game makers to talk about their work, if they don't want to.

In game making -as in most projects- mistakes can be made, for different reasons. Some because of limited resources, others because of lack of knowledge of the tools - and others even because of lack of creative talent regarding art, storytelling etc. But it's okay to make mistakes, as humans we all make them - nobody is perfect and no game will be perfect either. And even if a game is close to perfect, there will still be some people that don't like it because of personal taste. : ) I doubt that you can please everyone in a community.

But I understand that some critics think they act with good motive / in good intend when they point out flaws. However, that does not always work out as planned. The reason is, the critique was either not friendly written or not requested.
A good critic understands that he/she carries the main responsibility here.
So, let's say there is a game (either complete or wip) that is far from perfect - you played it and feel the burning urge to help the game crafter to improve his 'masterpiece'...

-Etiquette: An option would be " I didn't like / couldn't enjoy this game. If you want, I can give you advice on what I would improve if it was my game. "

In this example you do offer to open a dialogue, but without forcing your opinion on what to improve on the game maker, giving them an option to listen to you or ignore.

-Make use of the critique sandwich: "First of all, I liked the (enter variable here , expl. idea / concept / graphics / music... your balls to upload this, whatever) - however, I did not like the (enter variable you didn't like, but not all on one heap, just the one or two WORST things you can remember) - but all in all it was ( enter other positive variable here, expl. pretty amusing / quite unique / a nice effort).

Everyone likes a good sandwich - it's much better than just leaving a burning bag of critique-poop on the crafter's front door ^^; - I mean, look at it that way: the game you played, someone spent much time to build it, even if it isn't good. You wasted maybe 1 hour playing - but they spent 40+ hours to offer you this gameplay and already thought you'd appreciate it. ^^;

Long story short:
When reviewing a game by a fellow game maker, I think it is our responsibility improve "constructive criticism" and cut away the "destructive cynisism".


(edited- 'cause it didn't show my sandwich properly XD )

author=Mr_Detective
How pathetic and ironic. Are you really that desperate to get into girls' panties? So desperate that you need to continuously talk shit about men to make you look good in their eyes?

If I was just trying to "get into girls' panties", wouldn't it make more sense to, instead of telling them how much shit men are (of which I am one), lie to them and tell them I'm perfect?

author=Mr_Detective

Show

By saying that all men by default are shit and heartless, you are stereotyping and being sexist against men. You whined about sexism against women, yet, you are sexist against men at the same time. If you actually think before you bark, you would have realized that.

And if you think a little more, you would realize that women aren't the only ones being sexist against. There are many kinds of sexism against men as well. And if you think deeper, you would also realized that just because your mom got raped by a straight man, it doesn't mean all men are terrible. What are you going to whine about if your mom got raped by a lesbian chick? And if you think a little deeper, you would also realize that men are usually expected to do heavy work, pay the bills, pull chairs out for the ladies, and not as organized as women. You would also realize that what you said is just another whiney post about sexism against women, while also sexist to men. You would also realize that it has nothing to do with this thread, whatsoever. You would then finally realize that you are a pathetic immature idiot who worships women and hate your own kind.

So, are we going to fall back to the old "It's my opinion and you don't have to agree" again? By the way, speaking of which, you gave Konstanding 1 star, while another one gave it 5 stars. You, and that buddy of yours, accused him of being the developer's friend and that he was trying to help him. Let me ask you this: Did you give that game 1 star because he was your enemy, and there was some sort of revenge going on?

Feel free to call in "Mr. Piano repairer who supports equality for women but always talk shit about men" for backup. Replace the word "men" with "women", and "shit" with "stuck up whores" in your statement and the entire forum would be "ZOMG SHECSHISM!!!!" Why? Because anything negative about women is a bannable offense, but if it's for men, then that's okay. Apparently, that's how things roll around here.

Here's something special just for you. Look at it when you're alone. ;)

author=bulmabriefs144

The reason why this analogy doesn't work is most men, by default, are shit. If you never tell him what needs to be said, he'll continue to not care at all about your feelings and will only act as a hindrance in your life. If you don't address why sexism/objectification is a bad thing, well, you can look at just about any time this shit has come up on the net for a reference to just how heartless men can be.

Well, I intended the analogy around that girl who actually finds Mr Right but can't stand some habit of his (maybe he's clingy or something).

There's no such thing as "Mr Right". Even so, if someone has a behavioral fault that affects not only the way you look at him but those whom he comes in contact with, it's your responsibility to point out that this is an issue that should be resolved. Clingy, for example, is one of the worst things someone can be in a social context. Would you be willing to sit back quietly while someone stalks and sends possessive messages to people that have no interest in him? I wouldn't.

NebelSoft
There is a difference. : ) The first one is being polite, and the second one is sucking up to the critic.

I don't see the first one as polite. It might look polite saying "thank you", but to me it feels very rude and sarcastic. A thank you is an accurate reaction on a compliment like "You're game is the best I've ever played!" "Thank you". That's polite, yes. But if a "thank you" follows a negative criticism it's just trying to avoid talking about it and that's rude towards someone who actually put some thought into it and tries to help.

This is NOT forcing the opinion on someone, because the developer isn't obligated to listen to the criticism, he can also give counter-reasons and explain why he won't change it, that's just as fine!

But yes you could say it's forcing someone to talk about his project. A developer SHOULD talk about his game if he wants to improve. This is what accepting criticism mean.

A developer who doesn't want to talk about his game at all? Yes, someone like that might exist, but he should be aware that he will never become a good developer and will have to live with a lot of hatred towards him should he make his game public. I'm not sure if that's a good way to live. Worst case you still believe you're that super awesome epic game developer, release a game for sale and then nobody buys it and you suddenly wake up to cruel reality. In my opinion that's not the way to go.

Plus if the developer is like that, well first of all, he shouldn't ask for his game to be reviewed of course. And if he still gets feedback rather than being passive aggressive, why not just honestly say that you are not interested in feedback because you only made the game for yourself? Or even better - just completely ignore it. Alot less trouble and hurt feelings.

I still think it is good practice to thank someone for taking the time to play the game and write a review. Not "thanks for the criticism!" or "thanks for the suggestions!" but "Thanks for INVESTING TIME in my work."

Anything else I'd say would be contextual based on the content of the review and my project.

Yes, sometimes you do get people who want you to change something that you know will come in critical later or that you feel is best left as is and it's like "okay, I'm glad you like my characters enough to resonate with them (don't you touch my babbies!!!) but how did the rest of the game play plox?"

I mean, there's a world of difference between "I didn't like x character/device/system because it wasn't what I would have done/wanted it to be" and "I didn't like this character because it makes no sense/this device because it doesn't work/this system because it's bugged/doesn't fit in/is too complex to understand/I'm using it in mine (I've had that before XD - that one you just ignore)".

It's like, prime example of something being changed by someone else - One Piece (stop me now, lads and ladies~) One of the arcs were changed by the English publishers because they didn't think that it should be kept in - it's just a little island arc, how important could it possibly be? Very, it turned out. Cutting that arc out caused a major plot-hole for a character's reason to join up with the crew at all.
So, if someone presents a good, well-written cast of characters and you want them to change one because you don't like that one because it doesn't fit what you would have done... just keep in mind that your demand of change might just end up creating plotholes all over the joint. Or piss off the creator. Don't piss off writers, guys. That is how G.R.R. Martins come into existence.

from RyaReisender
For me criticism means finding flaws in the game design and pointing them out.

That's an important aspect of criticism, but it's not the only one. Critical analysis of a game shouldn't only find what's broken, but also what works. If your review is meant to help the developer improve the game, of course you'll be pointing out the issues you spotted. However, like the sandwich that was mentioned earlier, it's good to let them know what you thought worked well. It tells them they're on the right track.

Furthermore, criticism shouldn't stop at just stating the problems. You should explain why you felt it was a problem and offer possible solutions. For example, say the criticism was "These battles last WAY TOO LONG!!!" Alone, it's not very helpful, but if you explain further that the heroes can't dish out much damage and the enemies have tons of HP, then the dev knows where they can improve on. Sometimes, they may not know how to fix the problem, or might not see why it's a problem at all. Explaining yourself clearly is very important to giving criticism, and it helps its reception by making it more receivable.

That's the thing, though. If the developer knew it was a problem, they would've fixed it already. We're not professionals here; you can't expect an amateur to know anything. It only comes with experience, and giving helpful feedback is a big part of how that experience is gained. Like I said, they may not know how to fix the problem, or why it's a problem in the first place. That's why you have to be detailed and fully develop your criticisms.