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LIGHT, MEDIUM, AND HEAVY ARMOR: A CONUNDRUM
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Feldschlacht IV
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CloseFor the longest time I've been struggling on how to make different armor types diverse and interesting. I have no problem with the creative process on making individual equipment cool and interesting, I have a wellspring of ideas on that subject, but a fundamental aspect of my game are three classes of armor, Light, Medium, and Heavy.
Light Armor is shit like robes and magical mantles, medium armor is stuff like chestplates and the like, and heavy armor is stuff like plate mail and whatnot. These three divisions of armor continue in strength all the way up to the end of the game. My problem is, how do I make these three classes different, yet relevant? Some notes to keep in mind.
-Given nine or so playable characters, not all of them can wear all types of armor. The type of armor that they wear is dependent on what kind of stat/ability pool they have. Generally, most playable characters can wear two out of the three of type of armor.
-I have to make the differences, benefits AND drawbacks balanced to keep each type relevant throughout the entire game. In many games like FFT or the Elder Scrolls with a similar Light/Medium/Heavy armor set type, there's usually one class out of the three that's either FAR more useful than the other two or far less useful.
-What kind of differences and drawbacks? Stuff like Light (magic) armor giving more bonuses to MDEF is basic stuff that I'm already aware of. I need to be more creative, I think.
Light Armor is shit like robes and magical mantles, medium armor is stuff like chestplates and the like, and heavy armor is stuff like plate mail and whatnot. These three divisions of armor continue in strength all the way up to the end of the game. My problem is, how do I make these three classes different, yet relevant? Some notes to keep in mind.
-Given nine or so playable characters, not all of them can wear all types of armor. The type of armor that they wear is dependent on what kind of stat/ability pool they have. Generally, most playable characters can wear two out of the three of type of armor.
-I have to make the differences, benefits AND drawbacks balanced to keep each type relevant throughout the entire game. In many games like FFT or the Elder Scrolls with a similar Light/Medium/Heavy armor set type, there's usually one class out of the three that's either FAR more useful than the other two or far less useful.
-What kind of differences and drawbacks? Stuff like Light (magic) armor giving more bonuses to MDEF is basic stuff that I'm already aware of. I need to be more creative, I think.
Jalex
979
How about giving heavy armor poor MDEF? Plate mail is made of metal, which is a good conductor, so it probably wouldn't protect you from fire or electric spells. Plus it would balance out the MDEF bonus to light armor.
Yeah, that's pretty basic. I already have the idea to give heavy armor less MDEF as a tradeoff, but even in that I have to be careful, a lot of games where endgame Heavy Armor has poor MDEF usually gets shunted to the side endgame.
I would say that making all armour types possibly useful for all classes/characters in some way or another, be it small or big and obvious.
This probably sounds silly, but say instead of a tank using heavy armour the entire game(which let's say has a drawback like -agility/but high DEF) for certain battles that requires speed above all else.
Or having a mage that can use heavy armour for a battle where party members are taking heavy physical damage.
I don't know, if this sounds plain stupid or obvious or even too basic.
I wanted to contribute something though!
This probably sounds silly, but say instead of a tank using heavy armour the entire game(which let's say has a drawback like -agility/but high DEF) for certain battles that requires speed above all else.
Or having a mage that can use heavy armour for a battle where party members are taking heavy physical damage.
I don't know, if this sounds plain stupid or obvious or even too basic.
I wanted to contribute something though!
Varying degrees of attacks is one way I did it (in game x that never got released). Basically it'd be a case of matching up -
Heavy attacks would do reduced damage to Heavy, great damage to Medium and astounding damage to light armours... but in the case of light armour it'd be harder to land the hit because it'd be easier to dodge in light.
Medium attacks would do reduced damage to Heavy, hit light for great damage and sometimes stun Medium armour.
Light attacks would do little damage to Heavy (though allow for more than one attack), small damage to Medium armour (with the chance of crit hits more often) and decent damage to Light armours.
Heavy attacks based more on low speed, high damage. Medium attacks based more on steady damage over time and increased hit percentage. Light attacks based more on precise high crit rates and speed.
Of course, you could go the way of passive bonuses that can be learned/equipped or adding states to the wearers or giving break chances (more likely to rip through light armour, but it costs less to repair/replace).
Actually, you could combine a few - say, the passives and statuses ideas. Maybe certain classes receive bonuses from wearing a certain kind of armour (dependant on the armour itself) or for armour sets.
Heavy attacks would do reduced damage to Heavy, great damage to Medium and astounding damage to light armours... but in the case of light armour it'd be harder to land the hit because it'd be easier to dodge in light.
Medium attacks would do reduced damage to Heavy, hit light for great damage and sometimes stun Medium armour.
Light attacks would do little damage to Heavy (though allow for more than one attack), small damage to Medium armour (with the chance of crit hits more often) and decent damage to Light armours.
Heavy attacks based more on low speed, high damage. Medium attacks based more on steady damage over time and increased hit percentage. Light attacks based more on precise high crit rates and speed.
Of course, you could go the way of passive bonuses that can be learned/equipped or adding states to the wearers or giving break chances (more likely to rip through light armour, but it costs less to repair/replace).
Actually, you could combine a few - say, the passives and statuses ideas. Maybe certain classes receive bonuses from wearing a certain kind of armour (dependant on the armour itself) or for armour sets.
Desertopa
775
What does the rest of the combat system in your game already look like? The kind of options you've got will depend on what mechanics you're using.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Def vs. MDef is about as basic as you can get, but doesn't actually change how you play very much. Your characters probably don't play any differently if they have high physical def vs. high magical def, so the only thing that really affects is which other pieces of gear you pair with it.
Here are some ideas for ways to make the different types of armor actually affect gameplay. None of these are my original ideas, they're all from some game or another...
- Different types of armor give totally different stats instead of just different amounts of the same stats; one could give defense, one could give HP, and one could give MP, for example
- Characters wearing heavier armor draw more threat, causing enemies to attack them instead of characters wearing lighter armor
- Passively give hefty bonuses to different damage types. Bonus physical damage for heavy armored characters and bonus magical damage for light armored characters; medium armor could get 75% as much bonus to both?
- Heavier armor giving explicitly better defenses around the board, but slowing your character down more, is a popular option for many games. The player is choosing between defense and offense, then.
- If your game gives the characters any kind of control over their stat growth, then stat reqs for individual pieces of equipment would help differentiate the items. Different armor types would require different stats.
- Lufia 2 had IP skills, which were basically TP skills you could use if you were wearing a specific piece of equipment. If heavy armor gave you defensive/healing skills, medium armor gave you buffs and MP recovery, and light armor gave you attack skills, this would be a very noteworthy difference.
Here are some ideas for ways to make the different types of armor actually affect gameplay. None of these are my original ideas, they're all from some game or another...
- Different types of armor give totally different stats instead of just different amounts of the same stats; one could give defense, one could give HP, and one could give MP, for example
- Characters wearing heavier armor draw more threat, causing enemies to attack them instead of characters wearing lighter armor
- Passively give hefty bonuses to different damage types. Bonus physical damage for heavy armored characters and bonus magical damage for light armored characters; medium armor could get 75% as much bonus to both?
- Heavier armor giving explicitly better defenses around the board, but slowing your character down more, is a popular option for many games. The player is choosing between defense and offense, then.
- If your game gives the characters any kind of control over their stat growth, then stat reqs for individual pieces of equipment would help differentiate the items. Different armor types would require different stats.
- Lufia 2 had IP skills, which were basically TP skills you could use if you were wearing a specific piece of equipment. If heavy armor gave you defensive/healing skills, medium armor gave you buffs and MP recovery, and light armor gave you attack skills, this would be a very noteworthy difference.
Kaempfer
1932
Part of the issue here is that you are comparing your l/m/h armour types to games that allow your characters to pick one and focus on it. By making armour type an inherent part of the character's makeup, you've already eliminated the real need for finicky balancing (although obvious you want to avoid hopelessly unbalanced armour selection).
If light armour is subjectively worse than heavy or medium armour, that's fine because certain characters are forced to wear it, and have the skills to make up for it somewhere else. Think of glass cannons.
Of course, once you're over that, you could always give armour types passive skills.
Heavy armour could have a chance to block an attack completely, light armour could give inherent dodge bonuses (or, if it's meant for mages, it could give a chance to absorb enemy spells), and medium armour could be some combination of these.
Perhaps your characters receive buffs on being hit, with heavy armour obviously leaning toward letting the character take more punishment (by casting protect occasionally) and mage-types dodging or nullifying damage types.
You could also make weapon selection tie into armour choice in some capacity. A knight in full plate wouldn't be able to wield a bow, and a wizard in long flowing robes wouldn't be able to swing about a greatsword without tripping over his skirts. Of course, that's probably already tied into character makeup.
FFXII's light armour increased health at the cost of a terrible defense stat, while heavy armour didn't do much in the health department but did make each HP worth far more. It meant that if you ignored your MDEF you were a sitting duck in heavy armour- not because light armour provided higher MDEF, but because heavy armour didn't give you the HP to take the damage light light armour did. It's important to think of different ways to come to the same conclusion (in this case, surviving magic).
Light armour is usually fit for mages and back-row wimps, medium armour is made for all-rounders, and heavy armour is made for tanks. There's a reason things like "heavy armour makes you slower" are so prevalent: it's because they work to highlight the obvious differences between armour types. If you work to balance them carefully, even simple ideas can be all you need.
As one last point of interest, there is always the FFV route: since people tend to equip whatever armour has the highest AC/DEF, you restrict the skills a player has available while the class that equip heavy armour is selected. Knights can equip the best armour in the game, but are otherwise pretty boring, while Dancers can equip the amazing Ribbon, but suck at combat. Without a class system, you could always have armour type make a real, major impact on the offense side of things; light armour offers no restriction, but the worst DEF, medium armour offers a small restriction on magic or skill-based endeavours but has reasonable DEF, and heavy armour offers a penalty to any magical pursuits while making you a bulwark.
If light armour is subjectively worse than heavy or medium armour, that's fine because certain characters are forced to wear it, and have the skills to make up for it somewhere else. Think of glass cannons.
Of course, once you're over that, you could always give armour types passive skills.
Heavy armour could have a chance to block an attack completely, light armour could give inherent dodge bonuses (or, if it's meant for mages, it could give a chance to absorb enemy spells), and medium armour could be some combination of these.
Perhaps your characters receive buffs on being hit, with heavy armour obviously leaning toward letting the character take more punishment (by casting protect occasionally) and mage-types dodging or nullifying damage types.
You could also make weapon selection tie into armour choice in some capacity. A knight in full plate wouldn't be able to wield a bow, and a wizard in long flowing robes wouldn't be able to swing about a greatsword without tripping over his skirts. Of course, that's probably already tied into character makeup.
FFXII's light armour increased health at the cost of a terrible defense stat, while heavy armour didn't do much in the health department but did make each HP worth far more. It meant that if you ignored your MDEF you were a sitting duck in heavy armour- not because light armour provided higher MDEF, but because heavy armour didn't give you the HP to take the damage light light armour did. It's important to think of different ways to come to the same conclusion (in this case, surviving magic).
Light armour is usually fit for mages and back-row wimps, medium armour is made for all-rounders, and heavy armour is made for tanks. There's a reason things like "heavy armour makes you slower" are so prevalent: it's because they work to highlight the obvious differences between armour types. If you work to balance them carefully, even simple ideas can be all you need.
As one last point of interest, there is always the FFV route: since people tend to equip whatever armour has the highest AC/DEF, you restrict the skills a player has available while the class that equip heavy armour is selected. Knights can equip the best armour in the game, but are otherwise pretty boring, while Dancers can equip the amazing Ribbon, but suck at combat. Without a class system, you could always have armour type make a real, major impact on the offense side of things; light armour offers no restriction, but the worst DEF, medium armour offers a small restriction on magic or skill-based endeavours but has reasonable DEF, and heavy armour offers a penalty to any magical pursuits while making you a bulwark.
RyaReisender
200
author=LockeZ
- Different types of armor give totally different stats instead of just different amounts of the same stats; one could give defense, one could give HP, and one could give MP, for example
I personally don't really like this. Often especially in Indie RPGs stat increases on equip are totally chaotic, every equip giving different stats. For a player who doesn't know everything out of his head that's just way too confusing. It just puts unnecessary pressure on the player decide whether it's better to have DEF+10 and SPD+2 or DEF+8 and HP+10 while in actual gameplay it doesn't really make any difference.
I like it better if each type of equipment has 1-2 stats and they can only increase those two. Then make the decision for one of those two stats (like DEF/MDEF) matter significantly.
But really if someone says remove all equip I'd find that even better. There is just not enough use of better equip in most games. Even if they try to be smart and have equipment to actually matter, you as a player will never know what equip you need for the next battle anyway, so it's always die and try again. Not very fun.
The only two uses I see with equipment are:
- in a very open world game, noticing the power increase from a better equipment actually can be fun, so I see the use here... like going back to an old village finally being able to afford that 15000g armor and then finally being able to beat the volcano dungeon, yay
- a sort of job choice without having to implement a (non-immersive) job change system, as in I can decide whether that character should be DD or tank by equipping him with armor appropriate for the job, heavy armor take most damage but you will be slow and can't deal much yourself, medium armor is good for physical attackers and light armor is good for mages
I thought that armor types were naturally dependent on a character's job. People who have to go to the front of a battle specifically choose things like mail because it is designed for close combat. Scouts need to move quickly and have no obligation to combat, so they can wear something as light as a tunic.
If magic were to exist, I don't see any reason why a magic-user couldn't wear plate mail... if not due to a lack of exercise from studying magic for so long that there were no training to bear the weight of heavy armor.
It seems like the choice of armor should be limited only to the efficacy of the character's job, and the physical properties of the character.
If magic were to exist, I don't see any reason why a magic-user couldn't wear plate mail... if not due to a lack of exercise from studying magic for so long that there were no training to bear the weight of heavy armor.
It seems like the choice of armor should be limited only to the efficacy of the character's job, and the physical properties of the character.
Travio
149
author=Zachary_Braun
If magic were to exist, I don't see any reason why a magic-user couldn't wear plate mail... if not due to a lack of exercise from studying magic for so long that there were no training to bear the weight of heavy armor.
Typically in fantasy settings, this is under the idea of encumbrance - you can't move as well in plate, which interferes with your ability to do the somatic components of spells, ie. the movements associated with a particular spell. If you're wearing heavier gear, it becomes harder to make it as precise as necessary.
Then again, if your world's magic doesn't require somatic components, it's not a big deal. But that's fantasy's typical answer for it.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
*just a random ramble, I'm not thinking this through too hard*
Think about the roles of the characters who use said equipment.
Tanks usually wear the heavy stuff, so tailor it to them. Some can boost the "Draw' rate from enemies, others can boost HP, etc. But as a drawback, it shoudl make the characters slow, or lower their attack, reinforcing their role and specializing them.
Light armor characters are usually fragile. So make it a trade off. You want more defense and use mid armor? Or do you go with the specialized light armor that makes them eve more of a glass cannon. You can even have it boost speed, so the can get off their attacks/heals faster.
Mid armor should be the middle ground. Try to make everyone capable of using it, and make the player think hard about whether it's worth going for the middle group to cover their weaknesses, or go with their specialized armor and increase both their pros and cons with it.
Think about the roles of the characters who use said equipment.
Tanks usually wear the heavy stuff, so tailor it to them. Some can boost the "Draw' rate from enemies, others can boost HP, etc. But as a drawback, it shoudl make the characters slow, or lower their attack, reinforcing their role and specializing them.
Light armor characters are usually fragile. So make it a trade off. You want more defense and use mid armor? Or do you go with the specialized light armor that makes them eve more of a glass cannon. You can even have it boost speed, so the can get off their attacks/heals faster.
Mid armor should be the middle ground. Try to make everyone capable of using it, and make the player think hard about whether it's worth going for the middle group to cover their weaknesses, or go with their specialized armor and increase both their pros and cons with it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
RyaReisender just reminded me of SaGa Frontier 2, where each piece of light armor had one of six animas, which allowed you to cast spells more easily. However, steel armor not only had no anima but also blocked spiritual energy, so you dealt and took less magic damage. This was nice if you used no magic, but with the exception of two specific steel-aligned characters (out of 30+ total characters) you could learn magic with anyone and it was always beneficial to have a couple buffs or a healing spell. So it was a legit tradeoff even for physical characters.
You could do something like this. Have each piece of medium armor empower one class of abilities and each piece of light armor empower two or three classes of abilities. Where "classes of abilities" could be elements (as long as heals/buffs/ailments are given elements), or arbitrary categories like "dragon skills" and "sword techs", or intuitive categories like "ailments" and "single-target physical attacks"
You could do something like this. Have each piece of medium armor empower one class of abilities and each piece of light armor empower two or three classes of abilities. Where "classes of abilities" could be elements (as long as heals/buffs/ailments are given elements), or arbitrary categories like "dragon skills" and "sword techs", or intuitive categories like "ailments" and "single-target physical attacks"
I've done a few different implementations:
In my latest project I'm rolling with armor category being equal but with an emphasis on difference niches. For example chest armor has light and heavy categories and both cover physical and magic defense with a magic and physical emphasis respectively. Light armor also resists the affliction of status effects or debuffs and heavy armor reduces damage of various types which in turn can also reduce the damage taken from status effects like bleed and toxins which do DoT based on the damage dealt when they were applied. Anybody can equip anything too and you could change equipment midbattle too (with some same-turn penalties) so you'd equip what you needed at the time.
In another game I had a weight attribute for equipment and characters. All equipment had weight, all characters max weight would increase with each level. Again anybody can equip anything but if the sum of their equipment weight exceeded their weight bad things happened to that character (actually they just did zero damage, this was me mucking in Ace Lite). Equipment was in tiers as the game progressed and over tiers equipment weight would slowly increase. In the same tier there was light and heavy equipment. Heavy equipment was better than light but it had more weight so only those classes that had a greater weight stat could use them effectively. The heavy equipment was also restricted by rarity and cost.
There's a third one that had light/heavy equipment across armor slots and what characters could equip was a bit all over the place. I don't remember much about this one or the reasoning besides throwing shit at the wall so have a .gif of a dude in plate:
In my latest project I'm rolling with armor category being equal but with an emphasis on difference niches. For example chest armor has light and heavy categories and both cover physical and magic defense with a magic and physical emphasis respectively. Light armor also resists the affliction of status effects or debuffs and heavy armor reduces damage of various types which in turn can also reduce the damage taken from status effects like bleed and toxins which do DoT based on the damage dealt when they were applied. Anybody can equip anything too and you could change equipment midbattle too (with some same-turn penalties) so you'd equip what you needed at the time.
In another game I had a weight attribute for equipment and characters. All equipment had weight, all characters max weight would increase with each level. Again anybody can equip anything but if the sum of their equipment weight exceeded their weight bad things happened to that character (actually they just did zero damage, this was me mucking in Ace Lite). Equipment was in tiers as the game progressed and over tiers equipment weight would slowly increase. In the same tier there was light and heavy equipment. Heavy equipment was better than light but it had more weight so only those classes that had a greater weight stat could use them effectively. The heavy equipment was also restricted by rarity and cost.
There's a third one that had light/heavy equipment across armor slots and what characters could equip was a bit all over the place. I don't remember much about this one or the reasoning besides throwing shit at the wall so have a .gif of a dude in plate:
author
What kind of differences and drawbacks? Stuff like Light (magic) armor giving more bonuses to MDEF is basic stuff that I'm already aware of. I need to be more creative, I think.
my biggest issue with this kinda thing is, like you said, you get equipment based on your stat pools and at that point it's like
if your level raises your magic/mdef, and your equipment raises your magic/mdf, and they both follow the same pace (ofc there are games where levels and equipment are gained at totally different paces), what's the point in making it more difficult to balance things for yourself? it does get a bit more interesting for characters who can equip multiple types of armor, but only if their battle abilities support a mix-up or focus (e.g. being able to equip ~leather or plate~ doesn't matter much if you get AGI from leather and all the guy's skills rely on AGI for bonus damage while having no abilities that draw attacks to him or let him take hits in some other way)
i don't really have a helpful addition to this because i just finished this bottle of hard cider and am busy crafting shit in ffxiv but i wanted to say the above because it always kinda bugs me. it's the kind of EVERY RPG DOES THIS issue that causes meaningless status effects and items you never use even when you have 99 of them
YO MY DICKHOLE FRIEND AT WORK CLOSED MY BROWSER WHILE I WAS TYPING UP A REPLY
here let me try again
Rys and Locke sort of got it right; in my game, metal is fundamentally resistant to magical forces, so anyone wearing a heavy metal armor, for instance, will have trouble concentrating their energies into a spell.
SO, that's sort of the angle I'm playing here. Heavy armor is for frontliners and people who tank (and yes, proper tanking is something in my game), light armor is for magic users and people looking for elemental defenses, and medium armor is for those who want to strike a balance between the two. Not everyone can equip everything, but anyone can cover their specialties. Here are some thoughts I've had so far on this. Keep in mind that Light Armor is synonymous with armor with a magical scale, like robes and such.
-All armor has a Weight to it, similar to a lot of games, on the JRPG side, Breath of Fire III and IV for example. The lighter the armor, the lighter the weight.
-To make up for the lower defense, Light Armor generally gives elemental bonuses. Medium Armor can do, but at a lesser extent.
-Heavy Armor automatically makes the wearer immune to being Stunned for a turn.
-Light Armor gives bonuses to AP. Heavy Armor gives bonuses to HP. Medium Armor gives lesser bonuses to both.
-Heavy Armor has a penalty to AP (MP) Regeneration upon Defending, and Light Armor has a bonus to it. I'm trying to make this work,
so if any of you janky ass dudes know how to do this, help me out.
I still need a way to make Medium Armor a bit more relevant.
here let me try again
If magic were to exist, I don't see any reason why a magic-user couldn't wear plate mail... if not due to a lack of exercise from studying magic for so long that there were no training to bear the weight of heavy armor.
Rys and Locke sort of got it right; in my game, metal is fundamentally resistant to magical forces, so anyone wearing a heavy metal armor, for instance, will have trouble concentrating their energies into a spell.
SO, that's sort of the angle I'm playing here. Heavy armor is for frontliners and people who tank (and yes, proper tanking is something in my game), light armor is for magic users and people looking for elemental defenses, and medium armor is for those who want to strike a balance between the two. Not everyone can equip everything, but anyone can cover their specialties. Here are some thoughts I've had so far on this. Keep in mind that Light Armor is synonymous with armor with a magical scale, like robes and such.
-All armor has a Weight to it, similar to a lot of games, on the JRPG side, Breath of Fire III and IV for example. The lighter the armor, the lighter the weight.
-To make up for the lower defense, Light Armor generally gives elemental bonuses. Medium Armor can do, but at a lesser extent.
-Heavy Armor automatically makes the wearer immune to being Stunned for a turn.
-Light Armor gives bonuses to AP. Heavy Armor gives bonuses to HP. Medium Armor gives lesser bonuses to both.
-Heavy Armor has a penalty to AP (MP) Regeneration upon Defending, and Light Armor has a bonus to it. I'm trying to make this work,
so if any of you janky ass dudes know how to do this, help me out.
I still need a way to make Medium Armor a bit more relevant.
Kaempfer
1932
Why would heavy armour negate stun? Generally the only weapons effective against heavy armour were blunt weapons which transferred much of their force through the often static plate of metal and into the body.
also yo man why did you make this topic if you already had it figured out
also yo man why did you make this topic if you already had it figured out
author=Kaem
Why would heavy armour negate stun?
i dunno lol
author=]also yo man why did you make this topic if you already had it figured out[/quote
I didn't, I promise. I'm figuring it out as I go along.
Desertopa
775
author=Feldschlact IV
Rys and Locke sort of got it right; in my game, metal is fundamentally resistant to magical forces, so anyone wearing a heavy metal armor, for instance, will have trouble concentrating their energies into a spell.
Does it follow from that that encasing yourself in a suit of metal armor will be extremely resistant to other people's magic? Does heavy armor let them tank spells as well as physical attacks?
