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SHOULD THE LAST BOSS BE SUPER CHALLENGING?
Posts
0range00
0
0range00
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CloseShould the last boss be super challenging, like the final obstacle before you get to see the ending? Or is it achievement enough, that the player got that far and the boss is already part of the epic ending eye candy?
Because for me, i often stress when i know it's the last boss i'm about to face, at that point i just want finish the damn thing, if the fight ends up being easy, i'm actually relieved, instead of feeling bummed that the last boss was a pushover.
I just finished Dark Souls II, and i feel like that game did the finale well. I didn't have troubles with the last boss, but the fight before that was one of the hardest for me at least.
Because for me, i often stress when i know it's the last boss i'm about to face, at that point i just want finish the damn thing, if the fight ends up being easy, i'm actually relieved, instead of feeling bummed that the last boss was a pushover.
I just finished Dark Souls II, and i feel like that game did the finale well. I didn't have troubles with the last boss, but the fight before that was one of the hardest for me at least.
Dyhalto
7536
I want all the side quests I've finished and items/skills I've gained and grinding I've done to be put to good use. Give me a final boss that will show me the Game Over screen a few times, because when I finally beat him, I want to set the controller down, watch him disintegrate, and enjoy the ending knowing this is really the end.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
What the hell is the point of letting you get more powerful if nothing in the game requires it? The hardest boss should be balanced assuming you've gotten damn near every powerup available. Not to say it should be completely unbeatable if you accidentally missed one - but it should be obscenely freaking hard if you intentionally skipped possible ways of becoming stronger. I don't want to feel like I wasted my time getting those ultimate weapons and crap. I don't want the most climactic battle in the game to end up being a boring pushover unless I skip doing things that the game is encouraging me to do.
As for games that make the hardest enemy in the game be something other than the final boss... those just confuse me. It ruins the climactic feel of the ending, and I don't understand what the benefit is supposed to be at all. Well, I understand that it's theoretically supposed to make it so casuals can beat the game without trying, but they... don't. It has never, ever worked. They don't beat the game. They just get shown the ending without beating it. While the rest of us get shown the ending at a completely different time than we beat the game. No one wins.
As for games that make the hardest enemy in the game be something other than the final boss... those just confuse me. It ruins the climactic feel of the ending, and I don't understand what the benefit is supposed to be at all. Well, I understand that it's theoretically supposed to make it so casuals can beat the game without trying, but they... don't. It has never, ever worked. They don't beat the game. They just get shown the ending without beating it. While the rest of us get shown the ending at a completely different time than we beat the game. No one wins.
Crystalgate
694
I prefer if the final boss is harder than the rest, but not by too much. If the final boss is way harder than the rest, then either it is too hard to beat or the other bosses are too easy.
If you actually manage to make battles require tactic, then a good final boss would require you to make use of most of what you've learned trough the game. While the other bosses test what you've learned in their respective dungeons, the final boss tests what you've learned trough all dungeons.
If you actually manage to make battles require tactic, then a good final boss would require you to make use of most of what you've learned trough the game. While the other bosses test what you've learned in their respective dungeons, the final boss tests what you've learned trough all dungeons.
RyaReisender
200
In my opinion there should be two types of the final boss. One that can be beaten without doing any optional content and then a harder type that is even harder than all the secret bosses that give you ultimate weapons.
I liked for example how Star Ocean 2 did it. The final boss is hard, but not unbeatable with a bit of grinding into the 110s. But then you can leave the final dungeon again do some secret staff and suddenly he's super hard. Now you can find a bonus dungeon where you will easily reach level 200 in, fight several super hard secret bosses to all the "ultimate" item creation stuff and then you come back to the final boss and he's still a challenge.
I liked for example how Star Ocean 2 did it. The final boss is hard, but not unbeatable with a bit of grinding into the 110s. But then you can leave the final dungeon again do some secret staff and suddenly he's super hard. Now you can find a bonus dungeon where you will easily reach level 200 in, fight several super hard secret bosses to all the "ultimate" item creation stuff and then you come back to the final boss and he's still a challenge.
Desertopa
775
I don't mind having bonus bosses that are harder than the final boss, occasionally, as long as it's very clear in the narrative why the optional boss doesn't constitute the major threat that the final boss does, or something that might address that threat on its own. I tend to like it when games have a lot of optional content, and sometimes it's just not practical to calibrate the final boss so that it's challenging after you've completed all the optional content, but still possible if you haven't done any of it. If you have to complete at least some of the "optional" content to win, then it's not really optional.
On the other hand, I find that challenging final bosses tend to be significantly more satisfying, so if you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, by all means use it. I also enjoyed the Star Ocean 2 implementation above, but I'd add the caveat that it basically demands a guide; there's practically no way you're going to find the bonus dungeon by yourself, and even if you did, the trigger for powering up the final boss is separate from finding the final dungeon (which actually makes it more narratively consistent, but the trigger to power up the final boss is actually somewhat easier, although still difficult, to stumble on by accident, and if you did that without the bonus dungeon you'd pretty much be screwed.)
On the other hand, I find that challenging final bosses tend to be significantly more satisfying, so if you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, by all means use it. I also enjoyed the Star Ocean 2 implementation above, but I'd add the caveat that it basically demands a guide; there's practically no way you're going to find the bonus dungeon by yourself, and even if you did, the trigger for powering up the final boss is separate from finding the final dungeon (which actually makes it more narratively consistent, but the trigger to power up the final boss is actually somewhat easier, although still difficult, to stumble on by accident, and if you did that without the bonus dungeon you'd pretty much be screwed.)
A final boss should be challenging to a point--the characters shouldn't necessarily be lv. 99 and have the best everything, but at the same time, s/he shouldn't be a pushover, either
RyaReisender
200
It's not that hard to find the secrets in Star Ocean 2. If you leave the final dungeon after the final save point and just travel around enter each town normally and through private actions and then talk to all NPCs you will find it for sure without any guide.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
A final boss is supposed to be the endgame. The grand finale. The final exam to see if you've learned everything the game had to teach you. Simple having a hard boss with high stats just doesn't cut it. Challenging =/= hard.
If my strategy is correct, I shouldn't have to lose because my numbers weren't high enough. I don't feel accomplished beating a final boss by spending many monotonous hours grinding and getting the best equipment, spells, etc. My approach to the final boss doesn't change. The numbers do. That's not satisfying.
What DOES give the feeling of accomplishment is reading the boss' tactics, and adjusting my strategy accordingly. In one phase of the final boss, maybe a barrier pops up that deflects all magical attacks. Later, he switches elemental affinities and has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Maybe the boss starts adopting tactics that previous bosses had. As the battle gets closer to completion, the boss gets desperate and casts a spell that regenerates his health little by little, forcing you to attack with greater ferocity to wipe away that last chunk of health.
You beat a boss like THAT, and it gives you a MUCH more satisfying feeling than beating a boss with super high stats.
LockeZ has a point about balancing for having nearly every powerup available. You should definitely do that, but it's very easy to overshoot it and make the battle easy as pie with all the powerups.. To me, the best kind of bosses will still kick your ass even if you're ten levels above the recommended range. It's one thing to have all the powerups in the game. But if you don't know how to use them efficiently, you're no different than the casual gamer who just wants to beat the game.
So yes, the final boss should be super challenging. But not in the way that requires intense grinding to beat. Give the boss a wide variety of abilities. Maybe some alternate forms. The final boss is what will leave a lasting impression on the player about your game. If the final boss is too easy, it's like running out of breath when trying to sing. It could be wonderful singing, but you'll go out with a wimpwer than with a bang.
If my strategy is correct, I shouldn't have to lose because my numbers weren't high enough. I don't feel accomplished beating a final boss by spending many monotonous hours grinding and getting the best equipment, spells, etc. My approach to the final boss doesn't change. The numbers do. That's not satisfying.
What DOES give the feeling of accomplishment is reading the boss' tactics, and adjusting my strategy accordingly. In one phase of the final boss, maybe a barrier pops up that deflects all magical attacks. Later, he switches elemental affinities and has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Maybe the boss starts adopting tactics that previous bosses had. As the battle gets closer to completion, the boss gets desperate and casts a spell that regenerates his health little by little, forcing you to attack with greater ferocity to wipe away that last chunk of health.
You beat a boss like THAT, and it gives you a MUCH more satisfying feeling than beating a boss with super high stats.
LockeZ has a point about balancing for having nearly every powerup available. You should definitely do that, but it's very easy to overshoot it and make the battle easy as pie with all the powerups.. To me, the best kind of bosses will still kick your ass even if you're ten levels above the recommended range. It's one thing to have all the powerups in the game. But if you don't know how to use them efficiently, you're no different than the casual gamer who just wants to beat the game.
So yes, the final boss should be super challenging. But not in the way that requires intense grinding to beat. Give the boss a wide variety of abilities. Maybe some alternate forms. The final boss is what will leave a lasting impression on the player about your game. If the final boss is too easy, it's like running out of breath when trying to sing. It could be wonderful singing, but you'll go out with a wimpwer than with a bang.
0range00
0
Hm. I suppose i'm in the minority here, good thing i asked about this. I don't think the last boss should be a pushover, but i don't care for overly difficult fight either. I always preferred optional bosses to be for those seeking challenge.
Also Final Fantasy VII springs to mind, spoilers i suppose...
Also Final Fantasy VII springs to mind, spoilers i suppose...
How when you finally face Sephiroth, after running after him for the whole game, he actually ends up being rather weak. Gives the feeling Cloud surpassed the guy long ago already.
Orias_Obderhode
1387
author=ShineDiamond
A final boss should be challenging to a point--the characters shouldn't necessarily be lv. 99 and have the best everything, but at the same time, s/he shouldn't be a pushover, either
I agree with this. The final boss should be challenging - especially tactics wise, but in no way should require max level and the best equipment. Requiring maxed stats and gear is better served for an optional boss / post-game boss.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
The final boss should be hard, but not wayyyy too much so.
If the player makes it to the final boss, and then dies repeatedly to the point where they feel they need to go grind for a few hours, that kills the pacing.
This, incidentally, is one of the thinks that upset me about Xenoblade. Since the game was WAY to easy if I did sidequests, I largely ignored them. Then, at the end, things got really hard and all the sidequests that were my level were no longer doable for story reasons. I still kept trying, though, and made it to the final boss...
Who proceeded to kill me something like 20 times before I threw up my hands and reloaded a previous save file to go grind.
By the time I went back to kill him, all the flow, tension and pacing had long since vanished and I wasn't all that into the final boss and ending like I should have been. :(
And that, in my mind, took it down from "the best JRPG I've ever played" to merely "A damn good JRPG".
If the player makes it to the final boss, and then dies repeatedly to the point where they feel they need to go grind for a few hours, that kills the pacing.
This, incidentally, is one of the thinks that upset me about Xenoblade. Since the game was WAY to easy if I did sidequests, I largely ignored them. Then, at the end, things got really hard and all the sidequests that were my level were no longer doable for story reasons. I still kept trying, though, and made it to the final boss...
Who proceeded to kill me something like 20 times before I threw up my hands and reloaded a previous save file to go grind.
By the time I went back to kill him, all the flow, tension and pacing had long since vanished and I wasn't all that into the final boss and ending like I should have been. :(
And that, in my mind, took it down from "the best JRPG I've ever played" to merely "A damn good JRPG".
RyaReisender
200
I actually found final boss in FFVII really hard when I first fought him (the winged angel form). That was when I went straight inside the dungeon at start of the third CD. The final dungeon was already really hard at that point, though, had to run from every battle.
I think 0range00 was referring to...
...the very last fight in the game. You know, the duel between Cloud and Sephiroth, where the only move available to you is Omnislash? It's pretty epic to see, don't get me wrong. However, I think I've heard stories of people having a Counter materia equipped, Sephiroth getting his attack in, and dying from the counter rather than the Omnislash. Which seems rather... anticlimactic?
...the very last fight in the game. You know, the duel between Cloud and Sephiroth, where the only move available to you is Omnislash? It's pretty epic to see, don't get me wrong. However, I think I've heard stories of people having a Counter materia equipped, Sephiroth getting his attack in, and dying from the counter rather than the Omnislash. Which seems rather... anticlimactic?
Desertopa
775
author=RyaReisender
It's not that hard to find the secrets in Star Ocean 2. If you leave the final dungeon after the final save point and just travel around enter each town normally and through private actions and then talk to all NPCs you will find it for sure without any guide.
That's pretty damn obtuse; the final save point comes at the end of what is by far the longest and most complicated dungeon up to that point. Getting back down at all is a pain, and not something players would be likely to do for no reason. If you simply want to go back to stock up on supplies (unlikely, Star Ocean 2 gives you the capacity to buy vital supplies in dungeons via the Familiar skill, which most players will have by endgame, and if you don't have it you're almost certainly not ready for the bonus content anyway,) then there's no reason to visit the locations with the necessary triggers. If you haven't already wrapped up all the loose ends you plan to in terms of private actions and talking to NPCs, there's really no sensible reason to go all the way to the last save place in the final dungeon and turn back again.
The trigger to power up the final boss is easy enough to find that if, for whatever reason, you decided to come back down from the very end of the final dungeon and wander around and enter private actions at random, it wouldn't be that unlikely to find it (although this is an unlikely precondition in the first place.) The trigger to access the bonus dungeon though, is an NPC who's a total face-in-the-crowd (and it's literally in one of the most NPC crowded areas in the game,) whose dialogue has remained constant from the point he first became accessible until you hit the trigger of the game's final save point, which is completely arbitrary and has no logical connection with anything he says or does.
Legend of Dragoon. I had top defensive items, and the White Dragon with MP Regen Ring. The battle took six hours (physical attacks didn't hit for much, so attacking went in cycles while MP regen'd)! The final battle should have:
Final Fantasy's Yunalesca was Final Boss material. Yu Yevon... kinda wasn't.
- Epic battle length
- At least one attack that party kill (hence the party needs a workaround like rare equips, or levels above the threshold where it one hits)
- possible puzzle elements
- Multiple form/attacks changes
Final Fantasy's Yunalesca was Final Boss material. Yu Yevon... kinda wasn't.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisender
In my opinion there should be two types of the final boss. One that can be beaten without doing any optional content and then a harder type that is even harder than all the secret bosses that give you ultimate weapons.
I liked for example how Star Ocean 2 did it. The final boss is hard, but not unbeatable with a bit of grinding into the 110s. But then you can leave the final dungeon again do some secret staff and suddenly he's super hard. Now you can find a bonus dungeon where you will easily reach level 200 in, fight several super hard secret bosses to all the "ultimate" item creation stuff and then you come back to the final boss and he's still a challenge.
One of the Persona games does the same thing. Beating the hardest optional sidequest in the game adds a new final boss at the end of the last dungeon.
I personally would usually rather the easier form just not exist, but this method is certainly a nice compromise. In games where the optional endgame content is obscenely difficult compared to the rest of the game, it's probably the way to do it - you don't really want a majority of players who get to the final boss to be unable to beat it.
One thing I really like about this method compared to the "pushover final boss, super-hard optional boss" method that so many games use is that you don't have to fight the final boss multiple times, and the hardest boss is put at the climax of the story. This makes sure that the final boss and the ending has 100% of its maximum impact. You don't feel like there's still stuff to do afterwards, which always makes me feel sort of cheated out of a proper ending.
Desertopa
775
author=bulmabriefs144
Legend of Dragoon. I had top defensive items, and the White Dragon with MP Regen Ring. The battle took six hours (physical attacks didn't hit for much, so attacking went in cycles while MP regen'd)! The final battle should have:
- Epic battle length
- At least one attack that party kill (hence the party needs a workaround like rare equips, or levels above the threshold where it one hits)
- possible puzzle elements
- Multiple form/attacks changes
Final Fantasy's Yunalesca was Final Boss material. Yu Yevon... kinda wasn't.
Braska's Final Aeon is a pretty solid final boss though, if you haven't done the optional content (I wasn't using a guide, and simply failed to find the vast majority of it.)
Six hours sounds too long for a final boss fight, to me. You don't want it to be over in a flash, but you don't want a fight that your players might have to put off for a long time until they finally have a chance to finish it in one go, or force them to play through it in multiple sittings. That just kills the tension.
The Strategy RPG/Visual Novel Aselia the Eternal had this problem. You could save at any time during battles, but the last few battles were so long, it's pretty impractical to finish them in one sitting, and you lose a lot of tension putting a battle on hold midway through.
Atmosphere does help (example: Ganon in the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time) but have it drag on too long and the controller/keyboard/handheld/phone/what have you may go flying against the wall
My keys to a good boss fight:
--Make it challenging, yet appropriate for that point (a six hour final boss is overkill)
--Make it fun in some way (This is one reason why I love the Zelda series--many of its bosses are fun to fight)
--Keep it simple, silly! A boss need not have fifty forms and a billion HP (unless you just want him/her to)
My keys to a good boss fight:
--Make it challenging, yet appropriate for that point (a six hour final boss is overkill)
--Make it fun in some way (This is one reason why I love the Zelda series--many of its bosses are fun to fight)
--Keep it simple, silly! A boss need not have fifty forms and a billion HP (unless you just want him/her to)
No.
The rationale being that it is the ONE BATTLE that cannot be avoided, thus any build or party combo that got the player to the end of the game should also be able to defeat the final boss. Which means that a wide swath of strategies should be able to take him down.
A final boss that is ball bustingly hard is like a kick in the crotch to anyone who didn't build the 1 SUPER OPTIMAL BUILD PATH.
The rationale being that it is the ONE BATTLE that cannot be avoided, thus any build or party combo that got the player to the end of the game should also be able to defeat the final boss. Which means that a wide swath of strategies should be able to take him down.
A final boss that is ball bustingly hard is like a kick in the crotch to anyone who didn't build the 1 SUPER OPTIMAL BUILD PATH.
