HOW IMPORTANT ARE: PLOT TWISTS?
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" He..... he actually was the villain the whole time!"

This topic is to discuss the importance of a complex, winding or surprising storyline in todays's RPG adventures.
I have the feeling that in modern storytelling, there always has to be a plot twist either at the end of, or shortly before the end of the adventure. I think that puts a lot of pressure on the game designer because, well that's what's expected! It's not about saving the princess and live happily ever after anymore.
Or can there still be a good game without a dramatic plot-twist?
Pokemon games mostly don't have a plot twist, I admit. But sales aside, I don't really consider those "good games" ^^; (sorry..) I mean - well X and Y were like 'the guy with the weird hair you talked to a few times, actually turns out to be the villain' - okay, yeah, but that's not much of a plot twist ^^; everyone could see that coming.
How do you guys go about building story arcs? How important is it for you, and how do you think you can surprise and shock the player that has years of gaming experience?
I think even if the player can guess the twists and turns, it doesn't necessarily make the game bad, especially if it's well-written. I also don't think that a plot twist is a mandatory element of a story.
That said, they can be a lot of fun, but they still need to have at least a little bit of foreshadowing. If they just come out of nowhere, they feel a bit cheap :P
That said, they can be a lot of fun, but they still need to have at least a little bit of foreshadowing. If they just come out of nowhere, they feel a bit cheap :P
1) Whether a plot twist is good or not depends on whether or not the writing is good.
Final Fantasy VI's "plot twist" was that KEFKA TOOK OVER THE WORLD....to call that a twist would be pretty laughable. Its not like we didn't see that he was going to be the villain, but it was a little shock to the system to realize that the entire world you just fought to save got nuked to hell. The reason that affected people so profoundly was because the characters were so developed. Each of them had a little personality and a little history. Not too much, but enough that you were able to get a handle on who they were and fill in the blanks yourself. So when they wake up in the Dark World, it feels more personal because you're able to see how they were affected and how they lived in that world for the past few years.
2) A good plot twist is one that subverts expectations while keeping in-line with the narrative.
Dragon Quest V had a pretty decent story and decent characters. The plot is kind of weird because it doesn't have you traveling to save the world, but rather your main character is sort of shuffled here and there early in the plot and by a route of bad happenstance, gets sold into slavery. Ten years later you manage to escape and are left to wander about in the wake of a ruined homeland and broken family. Its pretty nifty: You even marry and land yourself a wife.
Seems like kind of a weird plot for an RPG, yes? So what's the twist?
That's pretty damn cool. And its kind of got this meta-logic that the Dragon Quest series is able to tread the line with so well. It also doesn't seem like the twist comes out of nowhere because it is to the benefit of the story, following the central themes the game creates.
Final Fantasy VI's "plot twist" was that KEFKA TOOK OVER THE WORLD....to call that a twist would be pretty laughable. Its not like we didn't see that he was going to be the villain, but it was a little shock to the system to realize that the entire world you just fought to save got nuked to hell. The reason that affected people so profoundly was because the characters were so developed. Each of them had a little personality and a little history. Not too much, but enough that you were able to get a handle on who they were and fill in the blanks yourself. So when they wake up in the Dark World, it feels more personal because you're able to see how they were affected and how they lived in that world for the past few years.
2) A good plot twist is one that subverts expectations while keeping in-line with the narrative.
Dragon Quest V had a pretty decent story and decent characters. The plot is kind of weird because it doesn't have you traveling to save the world, but rather your main character is sort of shuffled here and there early in the plot and by a route of bad happenstance, gets sold into slavery. Ten years later you manage to escape and are left to wander about in the wake of a ruined homeland and broken family. Its pretty nifty: You even marry and land yourself a wife.
Seems like kind of a weird plot for an RPG, yes? So what's the twist?
You aren't the hero who will defeat the forces of darkness that shattered your life - your son is. You go from losing your family, to regaining it, and building a new life with them.
That's pretty damn cool. And its kind of got this meta-logic that the Dragon Quest series is able to tread the line with so well. It also doesn't seem like the twist comes out of nowhere because it is to the benefit of the story, following the central themes the game creates.
author=NebelSoft
I have the feeling that in modern storytelling, there always has to be a plot twist either at the end of, or shortly before the end of the adventure. I think that puts a lot of pressure on the game designer because, well that's what's expected! It's not about saving the princess and live happily ever after anymore.
I think this reasoning is based on a fear that the audience has grown bored with the standard formula, so you need something to keep them hooked.
I also think that while the plot twist is not inherently good or bad, a twist that is implemented lazily or just for the sake of having a twist is no better than strictly adhering to formula.
Games do not need a plot twist to be good. A game can work with or without one if both the writing and the gameplay* are good; if I'm having fun then I'm not going to care if the plot never becomes more complex than "Your princess is in another castle".
*I also think games are a unique medium than can tell the story just as well (or better) through gameplay rather than just writing, but I digress.
I think Shin Megami Tensei IV handled plot twists pretty well. You start in a medieval-esque realm with castles and swords and stuff. Early in the game, you can find relics which are little trinkets that get appraised for money. A few hours into the game, you start to notice some relics being kind of weird. You start finding things like CDs, kitchen utensils and appliances, etc. You travel deeper into a dungeon, and you end up in the ruins of a skyscraper in modern-day Tokyo overrun by demons. At first, the characters are told that it's a dark underworld of sorts, but then there's the plot twist...
It gets confusing, but sorts itself out as you learn more throughout the game. It was essential to the story line and executed pretty well and gradually, so it works out great. But then you have some plot twists like in Hexyz Force, where they consist of...
And that plot twist can only be discovered by balancing Creation/Destruction action ratings. It's also only relevant if you've been bothering to pay attention to the lore of the world.
Those are some examples of good and bad plot twists. If you're going to do a plot twist, try to make it story-relevant and able to be followed by most, if not all, players. Don't have one of the first bosses suddenly return and become the main villain, unless they've had participation in the plot since then. A lot of modern games try too hard, as well as modern movies. I figured out the plot fifteen minutes into Captain America: The Winter Soldier using only the title using the following thought process:
Avoid obvious and/or unnecessary plot twists.
The kingdom you come from is actually a land created within a cocoon before a ceiling formed above Tokyo, and the cocoon was filled with residents chosen by the "angels". Everybody living in the kingdom had either been chosen or is a descendant of the chosen, and the kingdom's religious leaders know this. They hide it from the citizens.
It gets confusing, but sorts itself out as you learn more throughout the game. It was essential to the story line and executed pretty well and gradually, so it works out great. But then you have some plot twists like in Hexyz Force, where they consist of...
"HAHA I'M NOT REALLY DEAD! I can control gravity because I'm actually an ancient hero who wants to destroy everything so the fall didn't kill me. Battle!"
And that plot twist can only be discovered by balancing Creation/Destruction action ratings. It's also only relevant if you've been bothering to pay attention to the lore of the world.
Those are some examples of good and bad plot twists. If you're going to do a plot twist, try to make it story-relevant and able to be followed by most, if not all, players. Don't have one of the first bosses suddenly return and become the main villain, unless they've had participation in the plot since then. A lot of modern games try too hard, as well as modern movies. I figured out the plot fifteen minutes into Captain America: The Winter Soldier using only the title using the following thought process:
Why would they release a movie called "The Winter Soldier" in April? Oh wait... Captain America's friend was a soldier who died in a winter operation in the first movie... Shit, he's the villain.
Avoid obvious and/or unnecessary plot twists.
^It is so freaking tempting to click on those spoilers. Damn ATLUS' Europe hate *shakefist*
I think plot twists definitely add flavour to long, drawn-out story lines, but should be kept to a minimum for smaller games. Even then, it largely depends on the overall aim of the game: if I'm making something artsy and minimalistic, I might not really be aiming to produce a well-thought out story, so there wouldn't be any real point. Something like a visual novel would really benefit from that type of thing, though.
May be common sense here, but if one were to include plot twists in their games, I'd recommend centering the story around these plot twists to begin with, as opposed to trying to shoehorn twists into pre-written narratives - otherwise they could come across as tacky.
I think plot twists definitely add flavour to long, drawn-out story lines, but should be kept to a minimum for smaller games. Even then, it largely depends on the overall aim of the game: if I'm making something artsy and minimalistic, I might not really be aiming to produce a well-thought out story, so there wouldn't be any real point. Something like a visual novel would really benefit from that type of thing, though.
May be common sense here, but if one were to include plot twists in their games, I'd recommend centering the story around these plot twists to begin with, as opposed to trying to shoehorn twists into pre-written narratives - otherwise they could come across as tacky.
One thing that I would definitely suggest avoiding at all costs; it is pretty much never a good idea to write a story around an idea, decide it's too straightforward, and then add a plot twist. The plot twists should be consequences of the main ideas of the story, not add-ons.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Like with gameplay, a big part of what keeps people interested in a story for an extended period of time - like, say, 30+ hours - is the sense of discovery. If there's nothing new, it's not exciting. Plot twists are necessary to create any kind of suspense or anticipation.
Not everything that the player discovers has to be unexpected, of course. Some of it might just be things they wondered about but didn't know the answer to. "Why does one of Barret's arms have a machine gun where his hand should be?" The answer is the least surprising thing possible: his hand had to be amputated after he was shot by the organization that he's been fighting against for the entire game. But still, the game waited 15 or 20 hours before telling you so, to build up your curiosity. As a result, instead of Barret just mentioning it in a line of dialogue, your anticipation for the answer was high enough that the game could get away with showing you a flashback of the entire story of Barret losing his arm.
I think this kind of arc is important. You have rising action building up to a climactic reveal. But for the sake of the game's pacing, you need some small reveals and some big reveals. The big reveals are what we call "plot twists", usually.
Not everything that the player discovers has to be unexpected, of course. Some of it might just be things they wondered about but didn't know the answer to. "Why does one of Barret's arms have a machine gun where his hand should be?" The answer is the least surprising thing possible: his hand had to be amputated after he was shot by the organization that he's been fighting against for the entire game. But still, the game waited 15 or 20 hours before telling you so, to build up your curiosity. As a result, instead of Barret just mentioning it in a line of dialogue, your anticipation for the answer was high enough that the game could get away with showing you a flashback of the entire story of Barret losing his arm.
I think this kind of arc is important. You have rising action building up to a climactic reveal. But for the sake of the game's pacing, you need some small reveals and some big reveals. The big reveals are what we call "plot twists", usually.
Well... there are good games and bad games with/without plot twists.
If you decide to use plot twist then they are very important: not spoiling it beforehand, twisting enough to that it makes a real difference in the plot, but keeping the story in a logic way at the same time.
If there are not plot twist at all, or maybe mild ones, not strong enough to say it's a TWIST but just some kind of slight desviation or gradual develation of your real main goal, the player will not miss the twist if the story is a good one. BOF series are good examples of this, I think.
If you decide to use plot twist then they are very important: not spoiling it beforehand, twisting enough to that it makes a real difference in the plot, but keeping the story in a logic way at the same time.
If there are not plot twist at all, or maybe mild ones, not strong enough to say it's a TWIST but just some kind of slight desviation or gradual develation of your real main goal, the player will not miss the twist if the story is a good one. BOF series are good examples of this, I think.
author=DesertopaI don't want to be a stickler, but that is pretty much exactly what I just wrote...
One thing that I would definitely suggest avoiding at all costs; it is pretty much never a good idea to write a story around an idea, decide it's too straightforward, and then add a plot twist. The plot twists should be consequences of the main ideas of the story, not add-ons.
Thanks for all your interesting comments, opinions and examples on this topic. : ) It's really nice to read all this. Especially observations from other famous games / movies as examples and your feel on it are interesting and, I think, helpful.
That's a powerful statement, too. In the end I suppose it depends on what the individual game maker / prot writer is better in constructing, too.
@LockeZ : I had a good feeling, when reading your explanation with Barret as example, too. : ) Cool, when you think about it.
author=]Games do not need a plot twist to be good. A game can work with or without one if both the writing and the gameplay* are good; if I'm having fun then I'm not going to care if the plot never becomes more complex than "Your princess is in another castle". [/quote
That's a powerful statement, too. In the end I suppose it depends on what the individual game maker / prot writer is better in constructing, too.
@LockeZ : I had a good feeling, when reading your explanation with Barret as example, too. : ) Cool, when you think about it.
author=Yellow Magic
I don't want to be a stickler, but that is pretty much exactly what I just wrote...
Sorry, I had the tab open a long time before I came back and wrote anything. When I wrote the comment up, I didn't have yours in front of me.
Another point I think it's important to keep in mind; make sure that you don't end up bending over backwards or employing contrived coincidences to preserve secrets you've decided to hide. There should be good reasons for the information not to make it to the characters/player before the reveal, beyond the meta level consideration of "it would mess up the plot."
I don't necessarily think a plot twist is needed as in a very sudden change that makes the player "oh wow I totally didn't see that coming". But I DO think that any story in a movie or game needs to be unpredictable. It simply makes it interesting. Instead of single plot twists I prefer it to be unpredictable the whole time, though.
As Locke wrote, it's the sense of discovery that's needed. And there are multiple ways to accomplish that.
Also on semi-related side-note: Sometimes RPGs have a really boring story, but I like the gameplay in them. In those cases I often ignore all dialogue and just play for the gameplay. So in theory some kind of game that plays like an RPG but doesn't even have a story might actually be viable.
Edit: And think of western RPGs. They often don't get their sense of discovery from plot twists as there is usually not even a main story path to follow, but rather from small thinks, like going into an unexplored cave and find a secret passage and then you suddenly get attacked by bats.
As Locke wrote, it's the sense of discovery that's needed. And there are multiple ways to accomplish that.
Also on semi-related side-note: Sometimes RPGs have a really boring story, but I like the gameplay in them. In those cases I often ignore all dialogue and just play for the gameplay. So in theory some kind of game that plays like an RPG but doesn't even have a story might actually be viable.
Edit: And think of western RPGs. They often don't get their sense of discovery from plot twists as there is usually not even a main story path to follow, but rather from small thinks, like going into an unexplored cave and find a secret passage and then you suddenly get attacked by bats.
I think a good rule of thumb is that if someone can guess your ending easily, and if you can't pull said ending off in such a way as to either make it 'new' or at least convincing, then you might need something to throw them off the scent a bit.
It's not really a necessity - you can certainly have a game where you know how things will fall out and it can play out well if you put the effort in to distract the player from the fact that they know what will happen, but in the case that you can't distract from it, it's best to throw something in the way to make them second-guess their thoughts on the matter.
It's not really a necessity - you can certainly have a game where you know how things will fall out and it can play out well if you put the effort in to distract the player from the fact that they know what will happen, but in the case that you can't distract from it, it's best to throw something in the way to make them second-guess their thoughts on the matter.
I honestly don’t think plot twists are necessary or important at all. Sure they can make the story more interesting, but they aren’t essential. A good, well written, well told story can still be good even if the eventual outcome is telegraphed miles away perched atop a radio power with a huge banner that reads “this is precisely what you are expecting”. Things don’t have to go exactly the way the hero’s expect them to, but not having a big huge supplies it completely changes the dynamics of the story isn’t going to hurt the quality of the story.
In fact one of the worst things you can do is have a twist for absolutely no other reason than to have a twist. If you are going to have a twist though, probably the best thing to do is have one huge twist and have the story build up to it.
In fact one of the worst things you can do is have a twist for absolutely no other reason than to have a twist. If you are going to have a twist though, probably the best thing to do is have one huge twist and have the story build up to it.
It can also be a plot twist to not have a plot twist. Like you put in a lot of signs that make the player predict a plot twist and in the end there is none! Hahaha, surprise!
author=nurvuss
Just be sure to never, ever use the plot twist "it was all a dream" to end a story. Ugh.
Brave Story: New Traveler. Ruined my enjoyment of the game. Up until the ending, I thought it was well made for a random non-mainstream RPG. Not only was it all a dream, but after you find out it was all a dream, you and your friend go to see a movie that is based upon the events of the game that just occurred.
And Final Fantasy X to some extent. Half your party is either already dead and are just ghost-zombies or they're figments of a dream.
Also, Children of Mana. The end of the game implies it was all just a story being told to some children, and it then proceeds to tell the child (the player, presumably) to go to bed.
Haha! I wasn't able to finish Brave Story because almost every NPC just spouted gameplay mechanics tips rather than anything interesting. I'm glad I didn't, now.
Let me guess, the movie he goes to see is the original Brave Story movie that the game spun off from?
Let me guess, the movie he goes to see is the original Brave Story movie that the game spun off from?





















