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Closeauthor=LockeZ
I am okay with you making games where you say things that I very strongly disagree with. Emmych isn't. That is the difference here.
LockeZ, what are you going on about?
It has nothing to do with the actual subject - whether it's beastiality, cannibalism, rape, menstruation - and has everything to do with how it's portrayed. A game about rape can show how it can scar someone and can contain a thought-provoking, intelligent narrative. A game that plays rape for laughs or uses it as a cheap plot device is shallow and probably very offensive to a lot of people for no reason other than the creator was lazy.
I can't speak for Emmych, but all I've seen is her calling for more critical thought and research when writing about new topics or topics that could be controversial or offensive, and I can totally get behind that. I'm as against games with cheap, dumb and unintelligent discussion as you are against games with tons of grinding and poorly-designed boss battles.
(Some games are fine with unintelligent plots! But you can have cheap, dumb writing without being needlessly harmful.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well, maybe I took it the wrong way. Sorry then.
Moving the topic away from Bulmabriefs (even though he's a good punching bag), I will say that there have been games that I found deeply offensive. Binding of Isaac, for instance. The main villain in that game is a Christian mother who listens to too many televangelists on TV and starts hearing the voice of God, who wants her to horribly physically abuse and then kill her child, so she does. You play as the child, locked naked in the basement with fecal matter, dirty needles, and the dead bodies of your siblings that she let die already. (Also walking vagina enemies that fire railgun beams out of their snatches, but that's a different topic.)
This is not a healthy portrayal of Christians and even though it's played for laughs it seriously upsets me. "Lunatic who does awful things because they mistakenly believe that God told them to" is a really common negative stereotype of Christians that bothers me a lot. There are two possible messages the author of Binding of Isaac might be trying to send:
If he's being semi-halfway-serious, his message is:
1) Christians are fuckin' nuts. Their whole religion is absurd and makes them do awful things.
If he's just being a dickwad and offending people for laughs, his message is:
2) Christians are uptight and get offended by shit way too easily. You shouldn't care about this kind of stuff.
The thing is that both of these messages are controversial, and they're both offensive to a lot of people.
But even though I think he's an idiot and an asshole, and his game offends the hell out of me, I don't think he shouldn't have made it. People have the right to be offended, but they don't have the right to tell others to stop saying things that offend them. Not if the person saying those things has a point to make. And yes, I think that "you shouldn't be so offended by people who take this topic lightly" counts as a point to make.
Moving the topic away from Bulmabriefs (even though he's a good punching bag), I will say that there have been games that I found deeply offensive. Binding of Isaac, for instance. The main villain in that game is a Christian mother who listens to too many televangelists on TV and starts hearing the voice of God, who wants her to horribly physically abuse and then kill her child, so she does. You play as the child, locked naked in the basement with fecal matter, dirty needles, and the dead bodies of your siblings that she let die already. (Also walking vagina enemies that fire railgun beams out of their snatches, but that's a different topic.)
This is not a healthy portrayal of Christians and even though it's played for laughs it seriously upsets me. "Lunatic who does awful things because they mistakenly believe that God told them to" is a really common negative stereotype of Christians that bothers me a lot. There are two possible messages the author of Binding of Isaac might be trying to send:
If he's being semi-halfway-serious, his message is:
1) Christians are fuckin' nuts. Their whole religion is absurd and makes them do awful things.
If he's just being a dickwad and offending people for laughs, his message is:
2) Christians are uptight and get offended by shit way too easily. You shouldn't care about this kind of stuff.
The thing is that both of these messages are controversial, and they're both offensive to a lot of people.
But even though I think he's an idiot and an asshole, and his game offends the hell out of me, I don't think he shouldn't have made it. People have the right to be offended, but they don't have the right to tell others to stop saying things that offend them. Not if the person saying those things has a point to make. And yes, I think that "you shouldn't be so offended by people who take this topic lightly" counts as a point to make.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I think the message was less "stop saying things that offend me" and more "stop saying things so fukken stupidly and not even bothering with even the most basic research because it's really dumb."
So maybe "stop being offensively stupid."
So maybe "stop being offensively stupid."
@LockeZ Yet there are Christians like this, and they end up on the news all the time. But in the case of this game, it can also be taken as a metaphorical look at what Christianity has done as whole over the centuries, from the 2nd Nicene Counsel carefully choosing which books should go into the Bible based on how they viewed Christianity, carefully excluding, and where possible, suppressing scriptures that disagreed with their views, to the megalithic, power-mongering, institution it is today.
I'm not going to elaborate more because I'll just end up writing a book. I'm just trying to say you can't assume that the person who wrote Binding of Isaac was just some asshole trying to get a few laughs at Christianity's expense. This is the whole point of controversial. Somebody, somewhere is going to find something personally offensive. Now you can look at it intelligently, or you can try to belittle the writer by putting him in a box that fits a narrow, one-sided view that doesn't take other people's experiences into account.
I'm not going to elaborate more because I'll just end up writing a book. I'm just trying to say you can't assume that the person who wrote Binding of Isaac was just some asshole trying to get a few laughs at Christianity's expense. This is the whole point of controversial. Somebody, somewhere is going to find something personally offensive. Now you can look at it intelligently, or you can try to belittle the writer by putting him in a box that fits a narrow, one-sided view that doesn't take other people's experiences into account.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Right. I don't agree with what he's saying, and I'm not even 100% sure whether he's being serious or not, but I still defend his right to say it.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
From what I've heard (I saw that indie gamer documentary once), the mastermind behind The Binding of Isaac and Super Meat Boy has always had psychological problems and art is his way of expressing his inner torment to people who might not listen otherwise. Whether it's childhood drawings of monsters living inside him or the games he creates today, it all has roots in how he views himself and his outlook on life.
The Binding of Isaac specifically speaks of his hardships with one - or both - of his parents and the lack of compassion he felt as a child growing up in a religious household that dismissed his problems as demon-possession and militantly sought to "cure" him. He spoke how his grandmother (IIRC) was his escape as she actually cared for him but lost that after she passed away and, as far as I know, has yet to find that comfort again.
The Binding of Isaac specifically speaks of his hardships with one - or both - of his parents and the lack of compassion he felt as a child growing up in a religious household that dismissed his problems as demon-possession and militantly sought to "cure" him. He spoke how his grandmother (IIRC) was his escape as she actually cared for him but lost that after she passed away and, as far as I know, has yet to find that comfort again.
author=unityThat's fair enough. I personally don't think I'd be able to pull it off, but obviously I'm not going to tell you what to do and what not to do, writing-wise.
While this isn't a bad route, I plan to possibly make a controversial game in the future about something I'm not familiar with firsthand. Besides just research, I'm going to try to get a lot of opinions from people actually experienced with it, so I can bring some authenticity (or at least not completely discredit it ^^;;;). I think there are always options, and that games can tread new ground if done so in a knowledgeable manner.
author=slashphoenixI don't know if this is in response to my post, but note that I don't have an issue with writing about controversial ideas if you've had a few experiences around the controversial area.
Totally avoiding controversial stuff is not only pretty impossible, it's also a good way of making generic, boring art. It's the reason why male writers are afraid to write female characters, why companies are afraid to make games about anything more relatable than "these guys are evil, kill them". The thing is, if you make something with some heart behind it, there's a good chance someone might take it personally, and you might hurt someone.
Resume is a valid piece of controversial satire because I know you haven't had it great with respect to the working world yourself, and are thus able to express what you've experienced in a realistic fashion. On the other hand, if you were, like, working in your dad's multi-million dollar business or something, I'd be a bit skeptical of your ideas.
An analogy: My current company uses an external trainer to teach about the company, and the guy is constantly corrected by faculty because despite all the reading he has done, advice he's gathered and slides he's prepared, he simply doesn't have the first-hand experience to understand the inner-workings of the company thoroughly enough. There's just no substitute IMO.
With regards to writing women in games...while I would never exclude women from any of my projects, ever, I will admit that if I had the resources, I would rather actual women write them instead.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
If you're writing "controversial" stuff involving minority people (and you give a shit about them and don't want to be a douche about it) and you're not that minority, it's a good idea to get a person who IS that minority to consult with and make sure you're not jamming your foot down your throat.
You can probably find someone helpful in certain activist circles; those folks are usually interested in getting non-terrible representation going.
You can probably find someone helpful in certain activist circles; those folks are usually interested in getting non-terrible representation going.
dethmetal
990
author=Corfaisusauthor=dethmetalHere, here! Throw off the shackles of mandatory crafting/fishing systems, 8-directional movement, blue magic, steal, mini-games, day/night events and block pushing/ice sliding "puzzles"! If I've missed any keepsakes, please let me know.author=bulmabriefs144
The Answer To All Game Inclusions:
"...It's cool, let's add it in."
This is a horrid approach to game design.
I'm really late to responding to this. I said that adding things is a bad idea if it serves no purpose. Most of the things you mentioned can actually add something to the game.
Also, as the more I read bulmabrief's posts, the more I find his game hilarious. It's so bizarre and strangely offensive that it's actually kind of funny.
author=dethmetalauthor=CorfaisusI'm really late to responding to this. I said that adding things is a bad idea if it serves no purpose. Most of the things you mentioned can actually add something to the game.author=dethmetalHere, here! Throw off the shackles of mandatory crafting/fishing systems, 8-directional movement, blue magic, steal, mini-games, day/night events and block pushing/ice sliding "puzzles"! If I've missed any keepsakes, please let me know.author=bulmabriefs144
The Answer To All Game Inclusions:
"...It's cool, let's add it in."
This is a horrid approach to game design.
Also, as the more I read bulmabrief's posts, the more I find his game hilarious. It's so bizarre and strangely offensive that it's actually kind of funny.
Sort of like Epic Elf.
Housekeeping
3571
author=Sooz
If you're writing "controversial" stuff involving minority people (and you give a shit about them and don't want to be a douche about it) and you're not that minority, it's a good idea to get a person who IS that minority to consult with and make sure you're not jamming your foot down your throat.
Hi, Julio, I couldn't help but notice you're a minority, and, well, I'm making a game...
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Or, in a less asshole phrasing:
"Hey man, I'm working on a thing that has Latino elements, and I just wanted to see if I could get your input on them, since I don't know shit about them and you (presumably) do."
I mean, it's a better plan than "Welp, let's go with what the TV and pop culture tell me. They can't possibly steer me wrong!"
"Hey man, I'm working on a thing that has Latino elements, and I just wanted to see if I could get your input on them, since I don't know shit about them and you (presumably) do."
I mean, it's a better plan than "Welp, let's go with what the TV and pop culture tell me. They can't possibly steer me wrong!"
Housekeeping
3571
That actually feels more patronizing to me since you could pull my phrasing off as a joke at least, haha. I would feel weirded out if someone treated me like a representative of all white people, personally, regardless of their phrasing, and I haven't even been persecuted.
If you're wanting to write about minorities but you don't already have enough experience around them to appropriately empathize with their position, then I don't know why you would want to write about them in the first place. Maybe some introspection regarding the actual conflict in your life would be the best course of action.
If you're wanting to write about minorities but you don't already have enough experience around them to appropriately empathize with their position, then I don't know why you would want to write about them in the first place. Maybe some introspection regarding the actual conflict in your life would be the best course of action.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=HousekeepingTo be fair, having actually had someone from another question ask me stuff like this before, their questions are probably going to be less like what you're imagining, and more like "Is my reinterpretation of Greek mythology offensive to people's culture?" (it was fine, no one cares enough about Greek myths to be bothered by the idea of Zeus and some other character having a lesbian daughter) and "This map is supposed to be the inside of a coffee shop, does it look correct?" (it was wrong, coffee shops don't have soda machines inside them)
I would feel weirded out if someone treated me like a representative of all white people, personally, regardless of their phrasing, and I haven't even been persecuted.
author=HousekeepingForeign stuff is cool.
If you're wanting to write about minorities but you don't already have enough experience around them to appropriately empathize with their position, then I don't know why you would want to write about them in the first place.
But, more seriously, a lot of people will be offended if you don't include any minorities in your work. A story where the world is saved by a group of ten heroes who all happen to be straight white Christian males is going to justifiably get accusations of unequal representation.
emmych
817
Pretty much everyone else said what I woulda said to LockeZ, so thanks for that! LIKE LEGIT thanks for fielding that one so I didn't have to, ah-hahahaha. OTL
I'm just gonna reiterate: I really do think people should challenge themselves and write outside of their comfort zones, but not if they're going to be disrespectful about it or use "controversial" subject matter for titillation. People seem to forget that the groups of people they invoke to get a reaction from their audience are real people, and real people don't like seeing themselves represented in a tired and offensive way.
Also bear in mind that continuing to uphold the status quo of, for example, portraying women on their periods as crazy and out of control/weaker than usual/hulking out WHATEVER is a continued symptom of negative perceptions of women that actually influence people's daily lives. The same could be said for sexually objectifying intersex people, or any other number of the ideas in here that I've side-eyed.
Basically I would rather you keep writing shitty stories about white guys waxing on about how ~war is hell~ if the alternative is gross depictions of women or people of colour or folks with mental illnesses or queer folks or trans folks or whatever other minority group you want to use to get a rise out of your audience. The former is boring, the latter is legitimately harmful in a very real sense.
I'm just gonna reiterate: I really do think people should challenge themselves and write outside of their comfort zones, but not if they're going to be disrespectful about it or use "controversial" subject matter for titillation. People seem to forget that the groups of people they invoke to get a reaction from their audience are real people, and real people don't like seeing themselves represented in a tired and offensive way.
Also bear in mind that continuing to uphold the status quo of, for example, portraying women on their periods as crazy and out of control/weaker than usual/hulking out WHATEVER is a continued symptom of negative perceptions of women that actually influence people's daily lives. The same could be said for sexually objectifying intersex people, or any other number of the ideas in here that I've side-eyed.
Basically I would rather you keep writing shitty stories about white guys waxing on about how ~war is hell~ if the alternative is gross depictions of women or people of colour or folks with mental illnesses or queer folks or trans folks or whatever other minority group you want to use to get a rise out of your audience. The former is boring, the latter is legitimately harmful in a very real sense.
Housekeeping
3571
author=LockeZ
But, more seriously, a lot of people will be offended if you don't include any minorities in your work. A story where the world is saved by a group of ten heroes who all happen to be straight white Christian males is going to justifiably get accusations of unequal representation.
Well, yeah, that's true. I was thinking more like, "Hey, I'm a suburban white kid--let's make a game about the plight of minorities!" If you're just including characters from other races, you'd just treat them like human beings. If culture is worth noting or including in their characterization, then do a little research for the sake of authenticity. At the end of the day, people want the same basic things, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, and so on.
I thought this quote from McMillan about Binding of Isaac was pretty good:
@Yellow_Magic: Yea, I pretty much agree with what you've said - if you're gonna write about something controversial, make sure you have some experience or a lot of knowledge in the area, or find someone who does.
Anyway, writing a character who falls a little out of your realm of experience (women for men, men for women, another race, or anything, really) is a lot different than actually writing a plot about that experience. You don't have to delve into the history, political and societal effects of bigotry just because your game has a gay character, and good because that's a lot more involved and way, way easier to screw up out of ignorance. Of course, if you really did want to write a story about that, you'd damned well better be doing your research and talking to people who know more than you about it.
I wanted Isaac to embody this duality I experienced with religion. I wanted it to show the positive and negative effects it had on me as a child - the self-hate and isolation it instilled in me, but also the dark creativity it inspired. The Bible is a very good, creatively written book, and one of my favorite aspects of it is how so many people can find different meanings in one passage. I wanted Isaac to have this in its story as well, which is why the game's final endings have many possible interpretations.
@Yellow_Magic: Yea, I pretty much agree with what you've said - if you're gonna write about something controversial, make sure you have some experience or a lot of knowledge in the area, or find someone who does.
Anyway, writing a character who falls a little out of your realm of experience (women for men, men for women, another race, or anything, really) is a lot different than actually writing a plot about that experience. You don't have to delve into the history, political and societal effects of bigotry just because your game has a gay character, and good because that's a lot more involved and way, way easier to screw up out of ignorance. Of course, if you really did want to write a story about that, you'd damned well better be doing your research and talking to people who know more than you about it.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=Corfaisus
The Binding of Isaac specifically speaks of his hardships with one - or both - of his parents and the lack of compassion he felt as a child growing up in a religious household that dismissed his problems as demon-possession and militantly sought to "cure" him. He spoke how his grandmother (IIRC) was his escape as she actually cared for him but lost that after she passed away and, as far as I know, has yet to find that comfort again.
Huh. What do you know. I was right. When I played that game, I got this feeling the guy who made it was drawing from something a lot deeper and darker than just his imagination. :(
nurvuss
958
author=bulmabriefs144author=unityLol.
These two statements don't belong in the same post.
Futanari simply means "dual form/two kinds" in japanese. It's porn that has given it a bad rap.
But... There is no futanari porn in this town, and the townsfolk talk about the reality of being intersex (such as schoolkids worrying about people from other towns making fun of them, and not understanding why). That an entire town is like this? Maybe a curse, or something in the water. Regardless, they have to cope with the fact that terms like husband and wife are no longer reflective.
Guess what, words and their meanings don't exist in a vacuum
author=LockeZ
Well, maybe I took it the wrong way. Sorry then.
Moving the topic away from Bulmabriefs (even though he's a good punching bag), I will say that there have been games that I found deeply offensive. Binding of Isaac, for instance. The main villain in that game is a Christian mother who listens to too many televangelists on TV and starts hearing the voice of God, who wants her to horribly physically abuse and then kill her child, so she does. You play as the child, locked naked in the basement with fecal matter, dirty needles, and the dead bodies of your siblings that she let die already. (Also walking vagina enemies that fire railgun beams out of their snatches, but that's a different topic.)
This is not a healthy portrayal of Christians and even though it's played for laughs it seriously upsets me. "Lunatic who does awful things because they mistakenly believe that God told them to" is a really common negative stereotype of Christians that bothers me a lot. There are two possible messages the author of Binding of Isaac might be trying to send:
If he's being semi-halfway-serious, his message is:
1) Christians are fuckin' nuts. Their whole religion is absurd and makes them do awful things.
If he's just being a dickwad and offending people for laughs, his message is:
2) Christians are uptight and get offended by shit way too easily. You shouldn't care about this kind of stuff.
The thing is that both of these messages are controversial, and they're both offensive to a lot of people.
But even though I think he's an idiot and an asshole, and his game offends the hell out of me, I don't think he shouldn't have made it. People have the right to be offended, but they don't have the right to tell others to stop saying things that offend them. Not if the person saying those things has a point to make. And yes, I think that "you shouldn't be so offended by people who take this topic lightly" counts as a point to make.
I don't think McMillen was lambasting Christians as a whole in Binding of Isaac; the mother character is a crazy individual who happens to be a Christian. It also appears to be partly based on parental abuse that he suffered in childhood. There's also a plot analysis by the website Twinfinite that suggests that Isaac is an unreliable narrator and everything is not as it appears, which McMillen has stated to be accurate to his intentions. It's a good read, if you're interested.
