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"I BASED THE MAIN CHARACTER ON MYSELF."
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Ebeth
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CloseDidn't Dante also get to chill with the girl he stalked for ages in heaven at one point in the books? Not maybe a "power" fantasy and he didn't get her in the end but still pretty self indulgy.
author=Ebeth
Didn't Dante also get to chill with the girl he stalked for ages in heaven at one point in the books?
As I recall, with The Divine Comedy, Virgil was his escort in the "Inferno" and "Purgatorio" chapters, while Beatrice was his escort in "Paradiso". Though, I'm sure Beatrice was of some significance to the author, but I'm not sure what the relationship (whether real or imagined) was off-hand.
Then shove it in the nay-sayers faces and make them swallow their words.
Fucking PUSH.
Thanks for this, Libby. I was feeling a moment of self-doubt about my entire epic creative endeavor being motivated and fueled by spite, so it helped to read this and now I'm going to double down.
XD
@Marrend
I just wiki'd it.
"Dante claims to have met a "Beatrice" only twice, on occasions separated by nine years, but was so affected by the meetings that he carried his love for her throughout his life."
So if Wikipedia is to be trusted it sounds like it was an imagined relationship.
I just wiki'd it.
"Dante claims to have met a "Beatrice" only twice, on occasions separated by nine years, but was so affected by the meetings that he carried his love for her throughout his life."
So if Wikipedia is to be trusted it sounds like it was an imagined relationship.
author=Ebeth
@Marrend
I just wiki'd it.
"Dante claims to have met a "Beatrice" only twice, on occasions separated by nine years, but was so affected by the meetings that he carried his love for her throughout his life."
So if Wikipedia is to be trusted it sounds like it was an imagined relationship.
That's moderately interesting and eerily familiar!
Housekeeping
3571
I didn't read The Divine Comedy outside of The Inferno, so I don't know, Ebeth. I think the bigger deal with The Divine Comedy (in terms of why it's celebrated) is that it captured the social importance of Catholicism of the time and the values thereof. Dante as a character is really marginalized in The Inferno, anyway, as the emphasis is on explaining the seven circles of hell in great detail so that the Catholics reading it wouldn't want to go there. Really, the idea of character being the focal point in fiction wasn't really, truly emphasized until early 20th century modernism, so The Inferno might not have been the best example.
Honestly, I sort of see The Divine Comedy as worthwhile study material and not necessarily as compelling. Fiction's changed a lot since then, so I don't think a straight rendition of The Divine Comedy would be compelling outside of the imagery (which would be pretty fucking cool, actually). That shitty God of War clone tried to humanize it, which might not be a bad idea if it weren't so poorly handled (or so I hear--actually haven't played it). I think what I would like to see is the inhabitants of hell to be humanized so it doesn't become a moral play, but then that runs the risk of becoming an indictment of Christianity, so I don't know. Could be interesting in the right hands, for sure.
Honestly, I sort of see The Divine Comedy as worthwhile study material and not necessarily as compelling. Fiction's changed a lot since then, so I don't think a straight rendition of The Divine Comedy would be compelling outside of the imagery (which would be pretty fucking cool, actually). That shitty God of War clone tried to humanize it, which might not be a bad idea if it weren't so poorly handled (or so I hear--actually haven't played it). I think what I would like to see is the inhabitants of hell to be humanized so it doesn't become a moral play, but then that runs the risk of becoming an indictment of Christianity, so I don't know. Could be interesting in the right hands, for sure.
If I remember right, throughout the Inferno, Dante specifically condemns certain groups or individuals that he didn't like (in addition to historical figures that fall into his definition of sinners). His character even stops to have conversations and mocks a few of them for their failures. That kinda strikes me as a power fantasy, eh?
It's still a beautiful and strange novel, but looking back at it, it's pretty gutsy to sit there and state who's in hell and why XD
It's still a beautiful and strange novel, but looking back at it, it's pretty gutsy to sit there and state who's in hell and why XD
author=Max McGeeThen shove it in the nay-sayers faces and make them swallow their words.Thanks for this, Libby. I was feeling a moment of self-doubt about my entire epic creative endeavor being motivated and fueled by spite, so it helped to read this and now I'm going to double down.
Fucking PUSH.
XD
Whatever works to get shit finished. ^.^
@ Housekeeping
While Dante certainly isn't the most important figure in The Divine Comedy, and he sort of serves as a vehicle for the audience to put themselves in their shoes I would say that because he is a self insert there is definitively some power fantasies going on, like Slashphoenix said with who went into hell or not. I also say that the inclusion of of Beatrice and Virgil as the guides ,(essentially the girl you had loved for many years and the equivalent of a (dead) rockstar in the writing world then esp. for a poet like Dante) is a form of wish fulfillment. Uh thats sort of the point I was trying to make with Beatrice.
I think that if you work with a self insert character you're always going to have some amount of wish/power stuff going on even if it isn't blatant "and then I saved everyone!" And that's not necessarily bad, I think its why so many people enjoy superheroes. I don't think that having a self insert or author avatar directly equals bad writing, just,like you've said, waaaay more challenges for the author.
While Dante certainly isn't the most important figure in The Divine Comedy, and he sort of serves as a vehicle for the audience to put themselves in their shoes I would say that because he is a self insert there is definitively some power fantasies going on, like Slashphoenix said with who went into hell or not. I also say that the inclusion of of Beatrice and Virgil as the guides ,(essentially the girl you had loved for many years and the equivalent of a (dead) rockstar in the writing world then esp. for a poet like Dante) is a form of wish fulfillment. Uh thats sort of the point I was trying to make with Beatrice.
I think that if you work with a self insert character you're always going to have some amount of wish/power stuff going on even if it isn't blatant "and then I saved everyone!" And that's not necessarily bad, I think its why so many people enjoy superheroes. I don't think that having a self insert or author avatar directly equals bad writing, just,like you've said, waaaay more challenges for the author.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Holy shit you guys said a lot of things!
re: Mary Sues
Having come of age in and around a lot of fandom stuff, I've gotten to watch the definition warp over time, mainly because people were trying to define a particular writing problem with its symptoms, rather than the underlying issue.
The issue of a Sue/Stu is, at the base, just another form of Bad Writing, one that originally only mattered in a communal or ensemble setting: it's a character whose presence warps the universe so that absolutely nobody else matters except in relation to that character. Obviously, this doesn't matter if the whole POINT of the story is that character (Batman, James Bond, etc.), but in fanfic (where the point is usually supposed to be the established canon) or RP (where everyone's supposed to share the spotlight) it's a horrid black hole that sucks the fun into itself until no joy can escape to be experienced by others.
The fact that the traditional version of this character is a self-insert OC (with or without mood ring eyes, angel-devil wings, and natural highlights in the hair) doesn't really matter, nor does the fact that the character is usually awesome at everything. It's all about how the character impacts the narrative in a way that's inappropriate for the narrative.
re: "art"
I don't care much for an argument of "art = good, not art = bad," since a lot of things that are considered art also have their own stupid flaws. "Art" doesn't really mean that a thing is technically great in all aspects, and it does a disservice to everyone involved to put a work on a pedestal because it's part of a Canon of Art Things. It can be art and still be dumb.
(ETA: NeverSilent covers it better.)
re: doubleposting
YOU MADE ME THIS WAY, LIBERTY! YOU MADE ME THIS WAY!
re: Mary Sues
Having come of age in and around a lot of fandom stuff, I've gotten to watch the definition warp over time, mainly because people were trying to define a particular writing problem with its symptoms, rather than the underlying issue.
The issue of a Sue/Stu is, at the base, just another form of Bad Writing, one that originally only mattered in a communal or ensemble setting: it's a character whose presence warps the universe so that absolutely nobody else matters except in relation to that character. Obviously, this doesn't matter if the whole POINT of the story is that character (Batman, James Bond, etc.), but in fanfic (where the point is usually supposed to be the established canon) or RP (where everyone's supposed to share the spotlight) it's a horrid black hole that sucks the fun into itself until no joy can escape to be experienced by others.
The fact that the traditional version of this character is a self-insert OC (with or without mood ring eyes, angel-devil wings, and natural highlights in the hair) doesn't really matter, nor does the fact that the character is usually awesome at everything. It's all about how the character impacts the narrative in a way that's inappropriate for the narrative.
re: "art"
I don't care much for an argument of "art = good, not art = bad," since a lot of things that are considered art also have their own stupid flaws. "Art" doesn't really mean that a thing is technically great in all aspects, and it does a disservice to everyone involved to put a work on a pedestal because it's part of a Canon of Art Things. It can be art and still be dumb.
(ETA: NeverSilent covers it better.)
re: doubleposting
YOU MADE ME THIS WAY, LIBERTY! YOU MADE ME THIS WAY!
Mufufufufu~
I had this story idea once that followed a Mary Sue who had infiltrated a group that fought against the use of them in writing and was spying in order to help win the war for the Mary Sue/Gary Stu... only to slowly start becoming a real, well-rounded character. The idea was that she kept trying to hide her perfection but in doing so actually started to become flawed (the age old 'you become what you do') and 'real'.
IDK, just throwing that out there for the hell of it because when will talking about Mary Sues become relevant again?
I had this story idea once that followed a Mary Sue who had infiltrated a group that fought against the use of them in writing and was spying in order to help win the war for the Mary Sue/Gary Stu... only to slowly start becoming a real, well-rounded character. The idea was that she kept trying to hide her perfection but in doing so actually started to become flawed (the age old 'you become what you do') and 'real'.
An elite group of professionals delve into the world of fables and
tales to tackle the evils that await there. They are trained to
battle terrible tropes, chaotic cliche's, evil step mothers, and
other nasties of the written plane, but can they stand together when
a greater evil arises.
The birth of fanfiction has given rise to a new evil, once few and
far between - the dreaded Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Amidst all this is the new member, a Mary Sue trying to hide her
identity from her new workers, caught up in the battle between what
she has been taught is right, and the new world that she must face.
For though she was originally a spy for the MSGS, perhaps now she
will turn and through redemption become a better, well-rounded
character...
tales to tackle the evils that await there. They are trained to
battle terrible tropes, chaotic cliche's, evil step mothers, and
other nasties of the written plane, but can they stand together when
a greater evil arises.
The birth of fanfiction has given rise to a new evil, once few and
far between - the dreaded Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Amidst all this is the new member, a Mary Sue trying to hide her
identity from her new workers, caught up in the battle between what
she has been taught is right, and the new world that she must face.
For though she was originally a spy for the MSGS, perhaps now she
will turn and through redemption become a better, well-rounded
character...
IDK, just throwing that out there for the hell of it because when will talking about Mary Sues become relevant again?
@Sooz:
Hahaha! This is cool! I was just about to post that you managed to say exactly what I attempted to express, but you said it better and needed fewer words. Well, if nothing else, at least it shows we're both capable of being self-critical.
@Liberty:
That is one of the greatest ideas for a meta-literary story I've ever seen. Please make this happen!
Hahaha! This is cool! I was just about to post that you managed to say exactly what I attempted to express, but you said it better and needed fewer words. Well, if nothing else, at least it shows we're both capable of being self-critical.
@Liberty:
That is one of the greatest ideas for a meta-literary story I've ever seen. Please make this happen!
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=NeverSilent
@Sooz:
Hahaha! This is cool! I was just about to post that you managed to say exactly what I attempted to express, but you said it better and needed fewer words. Well, if nothing else, at least it shows we're both capable of being self-critical.
I liked yours because it actually goes into some more concrete detail. I like me some good thinky thoughts! (Especially about writing/art.)
suzy_cheesedreams
1480
author=Housekeeping
@Suzy: Maybe a better way to have phrased it is "if you're writing for yourself, then power fantasies are fine." But, I do agree with you in the way that you were thinking of it.
I have a tendency to be inarticulate, haha.
Housekeeping
3571
No, I meant when I said, "If we're looking at writing as a sort of therapeutic exercise." You're plenty articulate; here I am using vague pronouns.
suzy_cheesedreams
1480
Well, that illustrates my point: I have difficulty understanding exactly what others mean when they say something. I feel underqualified to speak in threads like these, but I comment anyway... One of the things I was worried about before joining this site was that I wasn't sure I'd be able to communicate effectively about game design or theory because I always misinterpret what people say :/
I would write it but A - I'm not interested in doing so and B - I doubt I'd be able to do it justice. It was a throw-away idea that I had after reading something about Mary Sue about a year ago. If anyone wants to run with it, feel free. XD
Housekeeping
3571
author=suzy_cheesedreams
Well, that illustrates my point: I have difficulty understanding exactly what others mean when they say something. I feel underqualified to speak in threads like these, but I comment anyway... One of the things I was worried about before joining this site was that I wasn't sure I'd be able to communicate effectively about game design or theory because I always misinterpret what people say :/
Don't worry about it. I swear, 80% of forum discussion consists of communication breakdowns and quibbling over tangents and unimportant details.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=suzy_cheesedreams
Well, that illustrates my point: I have difficulty understanding exactly what others mean when they say something. I feel underqualified to speak in threads like these, but I comment anyway... One of the things I was worried about before joining this site was that I wasn't sure I'd be able to communicate effectively about game design or theory because I always misinterpret what people say :/
You can always ask. :D
