CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE MIKE BROWN/ERIC GARNER/ETC SITUATION?

Max, just because you've been conditioned by your internet boy's-club to react with violent incredulity at the mention of the word 'privilege' doesn't mean that it isn't a seasoned and valid aspect of sociological discussion that has been present for decades. 'well sometimes white people have it bad too' is not counterevidence to the existence of privilege in society, and is in fact missing the point entirely.

the concept of privilege is essential to understanding the dynamics of oppression and prejudice in society, and it won't go away just because of that one time you saw some teenager on tumblr use it wrong.

'there are problems in this system that don't exclusively have to do with racism' does not give you the right to bully people into stopping talking about racism entirely. this is a particularly troubling choice to make in a topic concerning the extrajudicial murder of two black men and the blatant (as in, literally the KKK showed up) racism surrounding each circumstance.

author=Max McGee
The most important part of the problem is the TOTAL LACK OF ANY CONSEQUENCES FOR
Your failure to understand this actually explains a lot about your failure to understand this situation goes WAY BEYOND racism into something even MORE horrifying than racism. Government sanctioned thugs with unlimited legitimization of their violence and bullying and no fucking meaningful oversight or regulation.

Do you know why I am clinging to this so viciously as a "race issue"? Because the movements in Ferguson, New York, and other parts of the country are, yes, a response to the larger issue of police brutality, but they are also a response of police brutality towards black people. And there are no shortage of folks trying to take race OUT of the equation.

Like, I unironically agree with you about how police protect each other and that this goes beyond race, beyond shows of violence. I absolutely agree police need to be held accountable for their actions. Broadening this out to a larger talk, the police are there to serve the interests of the state. Links between business and state v frequently mean business interests are the state's interests. This is where I'd start hollerin about capitalism but y'know, not right now.

I'm taking these moments to emphasize how black lives matter, because so often ppl act like they've forgotten this. There are other issues, plenty of them. Right now, I'm talking about the race angle b/c too many people already wanna forget that.

If you think I'm racist for not focusing on white people here, I don't think there's anywhere that particular conversation can go.

Dr. Bader identified a shot to his forearm that likely came from behind. further shot wounds on the upper palm and inner arm matched the pattern of someone with their hands up. the lethal shot, delivered to the top of his head, could have only been accomplished with him on his knees. these are all the official conclusions of the forensic doctor, and not my own. also, when Mike Brown was killed, he was 148 ft. away from the cop's SUV.

this isn't the place to tell stories. I don't have time for armchair-forensics for whom no evidence is ever good enough, and yet who nurse their own hypothetical scenarios in an absence of proof.

Max, when people regularly refuse to even acknowledge your extrajudicial murder as something that merits an investigation, let alone a trial,

It bears repeating that the officers that murdered Kelly Thomas were acquitted of all charges except one officer who was seriously not even fucking tried. I don't know how often you need pigs to kill whites and get off scott free to consider it "regular" but on the other hand I fucking guarantee you this wasn't an isolated incient.

then you can pretend your insipid 'colourblind' rhetoric has any kind of merit.

I hope you are enjoying being a fucking racist. I mean I don't know what else you want to call it when you are so offended by me literally saying that everyone's lives matter equally (except maybe cops). I mean that is literally my position is that all human lives matter. I didn't even say this DOESN'T happen disproportionately to black and brown people. I just said NOT ONLY THEM. That's all. If I did actually deny that police brutality and excessive force overwhelmingly impacts black and brown people--and I really don't think I DID--I certainly did not MEAN to.

Multiple rounds of forensic analysis concluded that there were no entry wounds in his back. The evidence corroborated Darren Wilson's story.

Most eyewitness accounts say that he was turning and falling towards the cop when he was shot repeatedly, so of course there would not be entry wounds on his back. He was falling to the ground in the direction of the officer when he was shot again and again and again.

I mean, racism aside, like...what Wilson did IS understandable but not EXCUSABLE. Most likely he saw a huge black guy running at him and fucking panicked because that is a terrifying thing to see even if what he saw wasn't really what was happening: he may have had fear goggles on, like beer goggles only awful.

Anyway, he's a piece of shit coward, still, even if he's not a straight up murderer, and emblematic of the bullshit "kill before you get hurt" that's drilled into pigs nowadays making them a bunch of murdercrazed cowards.

@Max: alright, I'll settle for slighty racist and misinformed. I gotta shower and eat food and resume doing other things n'stuff, so i'm peacing outta this conversation. We got different views and different priorities and lbr, I think the closest we'll ever get to agreeing on a thing is "slight agreement with a lot of caveats and 'but' statements". I'll take it.

No, there's plenty of instances of police brutality on white people. It's just that the black instances are the easiest to find, and Kelly Thomas is a good example of a white man murdered by police. That said, of the roughly 550 people killed by police in the past year, roughly 150 were black. That seems like only a third of the people killed were black, but if you factor in percentages of the number of black people versus white people living in the nation, you actually find that the percentage of blacks killed are twice as many as white people.

I didn't list Tamir Rice because his murder brings up another issue: guns. The police didn't see race when they killed Tamir, a problem illustrated by the fact that literally hours later, police elsewhere killed a 13-year-old white kid under the exact same circumstances. It is not illegal in this country to own a gun or possess a gun, and it's well known that toy guns are prevalent. Children are allowed to play with toy guns and do so all the time. Toy guns often look real (it's no fun playing with a toy that doesn't look real). A police officer may be in fear of his life if he sees a gun, thus by this logic, a police officer can shoot you at any time, with no warning, for no reason. Again, we can demonstrate that the problem is with the police.

The argument is that guns, not the police, are the problem, but if we go to the current trend of outlawing guns, police, criminals, and the military will still have guns. You see the circular logic. We point to places like England and Australia and Germany and we say, "See, they've outlawed guns and the crime rate has dropped!" No, that's not exactly true.

England has outlawed firearms for both citizens and police. England, does have some gun advocacy groups that stand against the laws and there are allowances for gun collectors, hunters, and target shooters.

Australia:

author=Wikipedia
A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. While it's true that Australia has restrictive firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within a narrow set of criteria.

As of 2007 about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people) own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, security work, and target shooting.

Germany has the strictest gun laws in the world, allowing only licensed hunters to own them. Single shot guns made before 1870 are not banned and require no license. Police and military are allowed guns, but gun policies are so strict, it's easier to just consider them essentially unarmed.

In other words, gun violence and crime in general are lower in these countries because police policies are better.

This is the only disarmament that I would agree with. As long as police are allowed guns, citizens must also be allowed guns. There can be no liberty when people are not on equal terms with each other. So long as the U.S concerns itself only with disarming law abiding citizens, I will be against disarmament. Indeed, all proposed laws only target registered, law abiding gun owners. The very reason the 2nd Amendment exists was to prevent the standing army that now exists in our country (and just tell me our police aren't militarized. Go on, I dare you.).

So, back to Tamir Rice. The video is plain. Police exited the car shooting. There is no question this was homicide, but it now becomes a platform for the anti-gun lobby. They can justify Tamir's murder by pointing out the fact that even though he was breaking no laws, he had an object that was perfectly legal to possess. Because police didn't know, they were allowed to act, except for those times when they're not allowed to act when they don't know (if a police officer doesn't know if you are doing anything illegal, he's technically not legally permitted permitted to approach you). Do we see the circular logic again?

You see, guns are weapons and weapons are used in crimes (this is my favorite argument). You know what? So are cars (and they are classified as a weapon). So are scissors. Absolutely anything can be used as a weapon, is used as a weapon, and anything can be used in crime, and is used in a crime. We pick on guns because they're the easiest and most logical weapon to use. If guns no longer exist, gun crime will cease to be, and that's right. But people will continue to commit crime. Why? Because we're animals. The policeman's logic will not relax when guns are gone. But they still have knives. They still have cars. They still have scissors. They still have books (and don't tell me this is ridiculous! Books are among the top things people want regulated and controlled). Taking away objects solves nothing, and in the case of the U. S., it would put the citizenry at an unacceptable disadvantage against a police force that thinks it's perfectly okay to kill sleeping children and children playing with toys on a playground.

Now, I don't know if I'm right. I'm pretty sure there's a reasonable counterargument to my position. I do know that I don't feel safe in this country unarmed. I know that I am afraid of the police.

author=mawk
just see this as an opportunity to haze social-justice types.

I'm white straight male able-bodied gamer.

Social justice types are my enemy.

Or rather, I'm the enemy of social justice types. I'm not the one shaming and censoring them on an hourly basis.

Mike Brown was not a racially motivated crime. It was not a crime at all.

#handsupdontlock

Facts regarding those of you on the left side of the isle:

1) 100% of black people killed by white cops will result in you blaming the white cop for being racist and just hunting blacks.

2) 100% of black people killed by other black people - you will ignore.

3) 100% of white people killed by black people - you will ignore.

4) 100% of black people killed by civilian white people - clearly racist white people hunting blacks.

There's not much point in trying to prove anything when the narrative is so effective and pervasive.