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Trujin
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Trujin
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CloseI would agree to WIP's points, but it's a pretty messy subject in my opinion.
After 12 years EB finally decided to give us a legal version of RM2k3, but we have been asking for this for from te beginning. It's nice that they finally released a legal version and they are 100% in there right to enforce using the legal version, but after all this time, does this mean we/rmn also need to change our stance to old rm2k3 projects.
I for one would cut myself in my hands deeply if I would agree to a ban on new projects for that old maker. As it happens to be I haven't been active in the rm2k3 community for a long time, but I still have 2 old projects lying around I plan to "finish". They are indeed made with the illigal version of Rm2k3 and they also use some patches. I haven't made a gameprofile for them yet, but it would mean I wouldn't be able too.
I would be more than happy to pay the 20 bucks for the new maker, but as it appears, you guys say you can't use patches for it ;_;.
After 12 years EB finally decided to give us a legal version of RM2k3, but we have been asking for this for from te beginning. It's nice that they finally released a legal version and they are 100% in there right to enforce using the legal version, but after all this time, does this mean we/rmn also need to change our stance to old rm2k3 projects.
I for one would cut myself in my hands deeply if I would agree to a ban on new projects for that old maker. As it happens to be I haven't been active in the rm2k3 community for a long time, but I still have 2 old projects lying around I plan to "finish". They are indeed made with the illigal version of Rm2k3 and they also use some patches. I haven't made a gameprofile for them yet, but it would mean I wouldn't be able too.
I would be more than happy to pay the 20 bucks for the new maker, but as it appears, you guys say you can't use patches for it ;_;.
Guys, keep in mind that Enterbrain wasn't using Dejica back then. It's thanks to Dejica that we have these awesome releases that went ahead, but they only came in with VXA. Before that, the only reason EB thought to send XP over here was because of the wide spread of users on an illegal engine. It's like this:
- no plans to release to English.
- Don translates and distributes.
- RM becomes huge in English.
- EB realises this and decides, hell let's try English for the next version
- XP released. Not quite so good a release as envisioned but still A Thing.
- VX comes out in English
- Recieved a LOT better. Still not that great though.
- Degica takes over as publisher
- Ace comes out.
- Sales kaboom.
- Fans start asking the actual publisher, who are open-minded and listen, to rerelease 2k/3 in English
- EB not sure of reception. Ums and Ahs about it for a while
- Slow year, sales doing well for resources, 2k3 still going strong in peoples' hearts
- EB finally decides, yeah okay let's give this a shot
- 2k3 released in English
- Hurrah!
There's probably more than a few steps that I don't know about but from what I've seen of it all, that's basically the truth of the matter. The reason we didn't get and English copy when it came out was because there were never any plans to release any RM product in English. Then some pirate up and translates and surprise! It's a hit!
Their current publisher still isn't sure, but they decide to give us XP and VX. The publishing team didn't do as good a job as they could have to sell it, so EB looks into getting a new publisher. Enter Degica who start an official site and hype up Ace to high-heaven. It's a hit!
EB is a lot more likely to listen to what the fans want now that they actually have a legit source telling them that this is what the fans want. Bonus points that the publisher is willing to work with people in the community to get this rolling and viola~ a release is born!
*fixed
- no plans to release to English.
- Don translates and distributes.
- RM becomes huge in English.
- EB realises this and decides, hell let's try English for the next version
- XP released. Not quite so good a release as envisioned but still A Thing.
- VX comes out in English
- Recieved a LOT better. Still not that great though.
- Degica takes over as publisher
- Ace comes out.
- Sales kaboom.
- Fans start asking the actual publisher, who are open-minded and listen, to rerelease 2k/3 in English
- EB not sure of reception. Ums and Ahs about it for a while
- Slow year, sales doing well for resources, 2k3 still going strong in peoples' hearts
- EB finally decides, yeah okay let's give this a shot
- 2k3 released in English
- Hurrah!
There's probably more than a few steps that I don't know about but from what I've seen of it all, that's basically the truth of the matter. The reason we didn't get and English copy when it came out was because there were never any plans to release any RM product in English. Then some pirate up and translates and surprise! It's a hit!
Their current publisher still isn't sure, but they decide to give us XP and VX. The publishing team didn't do as good a job as they could have to sell it, so EB looks into getting a new publisher. Enter Degica who start an official site and hype up Ace to high-heaven. It's a hit!
EB is a lot more likely to listen to what the fans want now that they actually have a legit source telling them that this is what the fans want. Bonus points that the publisher is willing to work with people in the community to get this rolling and viola~ a release is born!
*fixed
Minor correction; Protexis was the publisher of XP (initially) and VX (for a bit) before Degica took over (and did a much better job with things).
(sorry, had to point that out)
(sorry, had to point that out)
You missed a few bullet points in there, Liberty, and RMN was quite involved in them. But it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme. Things are much better for the RM scene than they once were.
I know, I was just aiming for the basics on the business side of things. For example, RMN was where the 'Bring 2k3 Translation to English!' campaign began after Ace was released.
(In fact, I was pretty much head and centre of that, as was Nessy, Decky and a bunch of others. I got cussed out by over 5 different forums for asking them to sign the petition, because they wanted to keep it pirated and thus, free. Fun times~ Fun, fun times~ XD)
(In fact, I was pretty much head and centre of that, as was Nessy, Decky and a bunch of others. I got cussed out by over 5 different forums for asking them to sign the petition, because they wanted to keep it pirated and thus, free. Fun times~ Fun, fun times~ XD)
author=WIP
This should come as no surprise, but I would definitely disallow new RT2k3 games. No reason to remove the existing library. It's not the same as say, attempting to bar wallpapers made with a pirated copy of Photoshop. The illegal version of RPG Maker 2003 outputs a specific collection of files that you can tell was made by a piece of ill-retrieved software.
It is also somewhat condescending to refer to using any RM software as an inconsequential hobby. It isn't really for anyone to judge how serious someone is with anything they do. And if they do do it, they should probably do it legally.
No. Unless you can personally ensure that 2k3 is at least as good of better than the old version, there will always be people who will use it.
I don't produce games commercially. This is enough.
Seriously. This is like getting bent out of shape because some people are gay. Look, in a civilized society the law of the land is that law comes into play when someone is hurt. If no one is hurt, you have a victimless crime. I can make the case that while illegal, rt2k3 is on me personally. I use the program because the new version has no plugin support, and when it does and is downloadable, it will be on me.
author=Cherry
There is a reason: The official version is lacking the advanced abilities the inofficial had, namely the use of DynRPG and other modifications. This means that people who use any add-ons and bought the new RM would still be stranded, because they wouldn't be able to publish their games here which they started earlier, because they wouldn't be able to convert their project to the official engine because it would stop working.
This. If Cherry can get things fully transferrable, and DynRPG is made compatible with this new version, by all means, make the claim that most people should switch. The thing is, we can't make them though, without coming across as enormous twits.
I have two projects that currently use heavy plugins and patches. If I made a third one, I would want to customize things pretty heavily. Unless the new version came with a ton of new features, even having a legal version doesn't change things.
You did not just go there about the gay thing, bulma. It's completely different to that issue. If anything, it's like people getting annoyed by someone stealing a program to use to make something when they had to pay for it. Not a thing like homophobia. God.
And no, it is not a victimless crime. Money is being diverted from the creators of the product by people who want it for free instead. Just because some people buy it and then use the pirated version doesn't mean all will and EB is still missing out on the money that they should have made waaaay back but didn't. Don't kid yourself in to thinking this isn't a crime that hurts people.
Just because it benefits you doesn't mean it's right. God.
And no, it is not a victimless crime. Money is being diverted from the creators of the product by people who want it for free instead. Just because some people buy it and then use the pirated version doesn't mean all will and EB is still missing out on the money that they should have made waaaay back but didn't. Don't kid yourself in to thinking this isn't a crime that hurts people.
Just because it benefits you doesn't mean it's right. God.
author=bulmabriefs144
Seriously. This is like getting bent out of shape because some people are gay. Look, in a civilized society the law of the land is that law comes into play when someone is hurt. If no one is hurt, you have a victimless crime. I can make the case that while illegal, rt2k3 is on me personally. I use the program because the new version has no plugin support, and when it does and is downloadable, it will be on me.
lol come on man, what are you doing
You don't really need to justify your personal choices to everybody. It's cool. You just keep on doing your thing, everybody else will be doing their thing, and we can go on living while hopefully making games.
I'm for the idea of an archival of the historic game content here, possibly starting with a gradual phasing out of support for old and new games being made with Tsukuru 2003. That's hardly required, but seeing as how this site turned a blind eye to the legal status of these projects for so long, it couldn't hurt to bide time and wait for a few more features to be fixed in the official release.
author=Magi
You don't really need to justify your personal choices to everybody. It's cool. You just keep on doing your thing, everybody else will be doing their thing, and we can go on living while hopefully making games.
Apparently, WIP thinks I do.
author=Liberty
You did not just go there about the gay thing, bulma. It's completely different to that issue. If anything, it's like people getting annoyed by someone stealing a program to use to make something when they had to pay for it. Not a thing like homophobia. God.
I totally did just go there. You know why? Because it is something I get to deal with ON A REGULAR BASIS.
I not only have people trying to manipulate me on a regular basis (for God's sake, I am seriously moving back home, because my landlord promises, "Oh, you can stay" when all the others are leaving cause he's selling the place, "I'll just raise your rent and subject you to constant showings when you're barely there." Gee thanks, I think I'll leave), I get to deal with the assumption that I'm some type of gay. Here's the kicker, I'm trans. I don't want the surgery. I want to be full-time, I want my family to accept me, and yet I want to eventually have children with a natural pregnancy, but I get to listen every day to people who are fully convinced that all people of my group are gay, and that being gay is a sin, and that God gave them the right to make it their business. Not your business. I could potentially be bi, but I prefer women, but even if this were the case, why in this culture is it okay for people to overstep what are clearly their boundaries, to tell others how to live their lives. Yes, I did go there. Because it's the same exact place. Whether you tell someone they can or cannot do something for copyright reasons (between them and the police), or for moral reasons (morality is between us and God, or us and the state if we are secular), it's not our personal business, so we need to back off.
Okay, yes, maybe I am blowing things out of proportion. And it is definitely important for people to support megacorporations as they make yet even more money because obviously they are poor and suffering and it's our civic duty or some nonsense. But it is my responsibility to do that. And it's yours. And so on. "Piracy is not a victimless crime." Yes, I know, I've seen it on videos. However, I don't believe anyone named WIP as official moral watchdog over other people's lives. The last thing I want is for my baby that I worked for years, if I say accidentally hit the delete button to be unable to resubmit, because you know, no new rt2k3 games or you're banned or something.
Our boundaries end with us. When they don't, is precisely when other people become our victims.
You didn't have to pay for it. You made the choice to pay for it. I can't make that choice because it is currently not available to me (see below), so this comes across the same way as a Baptist preacher I heard, talking about how people in LGBT relationships should divorce because it's not a "real" relationship (I have issues). What that boils down to is resentment because others made different choices than you, and you don't like the results. I'm sorry, but that's your hangup. Mine is obviously this.
Okay, yes, maybe I am blowing things out of proportion. And it is definitely important for people to support megacorporations as they make yet even more money because obviously they are poor and suffering and it's our civic duty or some nonsense. But it is my responsibility to do that. And it's yours. And so on. "Piracy is not a victimless crime." Yes, I know, I've seen it on videos. However, I don't believe anyone named WIP as official moral watchdog over other people's lives. The last thing I want is for my baby that I worked for years, if I say accidentally hit the delete button to be unable to resubmit, because you know, no new rt2k3 games or you're banned or something.
Our boundaries end with us. When they don't, is precisely when other people become our victims.
You didn't have to pay for it. You made the choice to pay for it. I can't make that choice because it is currently not available to me (see below), so this comes across the same way as a Baptist preacher I heard, talking about how people in LGBT relationships should divorce because it's not a "real" relationship (I have issues). What that boils down to is resentment because others made different choices than you, and you don't like the results. I'm sorry, but that's your hangup. Mine is obviously this.
And yes, Magi, I could see the phasing out of such games. But likely a result of the thing being cheap and accessible, and better than the old. I'm cool with that. What I'm not cool with, is someone saying "wait, you're still working on rt2k3? No, you're evil. To the mines with you." I'd prefer this to happen due to the fact that the new version has become superior in every way, so people want to do that (not yet), not because someone preached to them about it being "wrong."
Yes. It is probably "wrong" to release rt2k3 games. But, until rpg2k3 is released where everyone can use it regardless of whether they have steam (I can't, because I lost the access code for my username, despite having the password), is able to run plugins (the bulk of my work last year has been making a number of plugins work, making at least 1/5 of my game run on plugins of some sort), until stuff like that happens, I can't use this program.
Let's drop it.
MOVING ON...
Can anyone show screenshots of the differences? What new stuff has been added? I've seen people rave about it, but I wanna see whatever new features were added. And I wanna verify people have gotten stuff to work properly before I try. Pictures!
Ehhh I was gonna reply but I respect the "MOVING ON..."
If you need to vent out, I can lend you an ear.
BTW there are pictures on Steam and there's a difference list somewhere (I'm busy so I won't look) it shan't be too hard to find. ~ (and pictures won't help much)
If you need to vent out, I can lend you an ear.
BTW there are pictures on Steam and there's a difference list somewhere (I'm busy so I won't look) it shan't be too hard to find. ~ (and pictures won't help much)
Well, aside from the fact the new version I assume still does not have DynRPG support. If you're a person who tweaks the game alot, it makes sense to do this.
That said, as stuff becomes more and more streamlined, the only reason not to buy is if you don't have a normal income.
I could vent a little more (especially today), but if you're interested in listening, I'll PM you instead. This thread's supposed to be about the new old toy in game programming, and how shiny it is.
That said, as stuff becomes more and more streamlined, the only reason not to buy is if you don't have a normal income.
I could vent a little more (especially today), but if you're interested in listening, I'll PM you instead. This thread's supposed to be about the new old toy in game programming, and how shiny it is.
I was referring to bulmabriefs, who wants everything that Ace does, but refuses to accept it, and instead repeatedly asks if every single advanced feature in Ace can be bolted onto 2k3 instead.
I may be a newcomer to this forum but I'm not to game making as a whole so I'll give my opinion on why RM2003 is liked so much.
I've dabbled in both professional and amateur game making and what a lot of people understimate is just how darn convenient and stimulating it is for some to have an effective engine from the start. There is a very good reason why many generations of games are defined by their engine ; even among pros, not everyone want to recode how to draw basic sprites and polygons on the screen every single time you want to tell a new story or got a neat new gameplay system in play. Sometimes, you just want to sit down and have all of your coding go to event-making instead of engine finetuning.
And RPG Maker 2003, with its ATB system, hit a lot closer to home for many than the turn-based engine of XP & Ace ; simply put, RM2003 get the result you want with comparatively less mods and extra coding, which is a huge plus since for every mod and add-on you add, you risk greater instability in your game.
Of course, if you know (and is willing) to program, Ace is superior (though I think that if you absolutely need Ace's coding muscle, you may as well and go for a full game making engine/pure code but I disgress) but simply put, it is one reason to take RM2003.
But what about those who still code insanely much but still choose RM2003 over Ace?
Ironically? Resolution.
Simply put, even in today's world of high-resolution graphics, pixel art remain a distinctive and very thoroughly loved art style. And it is one that simply work better in a limited resolution. There is also the matter that not everyone who use RPG Maker want to create full-blown original projects ; many want to toy with it, create fangames, or simply don't have artistic talent or contacts to help. RM2003's resolution is compatible with the vast majority of the sprite resolutions used in pixel art games, even today.
To use Ace demand you either accept to use the RTP, make your own graphics, or use a more limited palette of graphics than RM2003.
I hope it help shine a light on why RM2003 retain traction (and relevence) even today despite being an older, simpler engine.
I've dabbled in both professional and amateur game making and what a lot of people understimate is just how darn convenient and stimulating it is for some to have an effective engine from the start. There is a very good reason why many generations of games are defined by their engine ; even among pros, not everyone want to recode how to draw basic sprites and polygons on the screen every single time you want to tell a new story or got a neat new gameplay system in play. Sometimes, you just want to sit down and have all of your coding go to event-making instead of engine finetuning.
And RPG Maker 2003, with its ATB system, hit a lot closer to home for many than the turn-based engine of XP & Ace ; simply put, RM2003 get the result you want with comparatively less mods and extra coding, which is a huge plus since for every mod and add-on you add, you risk greater instability in your game.
Of course, if you know (and is willing) to program, Ace is superior (though I think that if you absolutely need Ace's coding muscle, you may as well and go for a full game making engine/pure code but I disgress) but simply put, it is one reason to take RM2003.
But what about those who still code insanely much but still choose RM2003 over Ace?
Ironically? Resolution.
Simply put, even in today's world of high-resolution graphics, pixel art remain a distinctive and very thoroughly loved art style. And it is one that simply work better in a limited resolution. There is also the matter that not everyone who use RPG Maker want to create full-blown original projects ; many want to toy with it, create fangames, or simply don't have artistic talent or contacts to help. RM2003's resolution is compatible with the vast majority of the sprite resolutions used in pixel art games, even today.
To use Ace demand you either accept to use the RTP, make your own graphics, or use a more limited palette of graphics than RM2003.
I hope it help shine a light on why RM2003 retain traction (and relevence) even today despite being an older, simpler engine.
author=Sated
All I'm saying is that if I felt the need to use DynRPG to patch the shit out of RM2K3 to do things it can't already do, then I'd probably just switch to an RGSS engine and use RGSS to do those things instead. But I don't use DynRPG so I don't really know what people are using DynRPG for and whether or not RGSS can do those things.
RM2K3 does everything I personally need it to do so I don't see the need to switch ATM. That there is a legitimate version I can use in the future is only for the better.
I don't understand RGSS scripting though. I grew up with C++, and it makes sense to me. Ruby makes sense from the explanation given in the "teach me ruby" thread a week ago, but not enough that I consider it my coding preference.
What could be the case however, is a very easy transition by having built-in DynRPG support. As in, future versions of 2k3 simply scan for the existence of the DynPlugins and DynPatches folder, and read those files, allowing those who use it to use it without patching the rtp (which I think might be illegal), and those who don't use it to be like those who don't use scripts in XP, VX, or Ace. They just don't use it.
The problem I have with Ace is its horribly munchkin characters. And that I do not like its troops system and the every turn option (which seems to either freeze things or skip).
I don't expect you to understand, because I'm coming from a different place than you are. But basically, 2k3 developed its scripting system organically over the past few years, while RGSS went down its own path. Support for CodeBlocks created code, is quite different than the path XP, VX, and Ace went down. Trying to make things like Ace is missing the point. 2k3 is 2k3, and it was improved upon using DynRPG. Trying to brush over that, is ignoring its history.
The people who only used it while it was "legal" and are coming from Ace backgrounds, think "bulma's trying to make it like Ace without using Ace." No, I'm not. I'm trying to make it have its own script, which already developed.
