[POLL] WHAT IS THE BEST KIND OF VILLAIN/ANTAGONIST?

@Suzy_Cheesedreams, yes, I was referring to Garland from the first Final Fantasy. Garland in IX has a bit more depth to him. Around VIII, Final Fantasy writers started to get really good at writing villains, not that they weren't good at writing chaos type villains...

Ultimecia: At first glance, she seems like just another born to be bad monster from another dimension, but as the story finally starts to tie up it's threads, you learn that the reason she went on her rampage through is because she's terrified of dying. That you never actually meet her makes her seem shallow and souless, but this plays on the player's fear of the unknown. She doesn't even have a line of dialogue, unless you count her speaking through Edea or Adel.

Kuja: The fear of death is present in him, too, but what's more, he seems to loath anything that reminds him of his own origins. His main driving force is self-loathing. He's everything he hates, and he's worked so hard to become more, only to find out that it was all pointless.

Seymour: Not the main villain, but another one that resists his fate. This one kind of flopped, in my opinion as he seems to kind of fall flat; blustery with no force to wind he generates. A barking dog with no teeth.

Jecht: I can't think of him as a villain. I dislike him for being an abusive father, but he's not a bad man, and he is where he is because he was one of many people in a long line trying to save the world. Ultimately, what is his relationship to Sin? In the end, he does his best to help the heroes finally defeat Sin, but that doesn't stop Sin from continuing his reign of terror, so there is a genuine difference between Sin and Jecht, Jecht being a kind of window to Sin, and Sin being the force of nature that Pizza described.

To the other posts in general, there is definitely a sound argument the villain that is written to be the best match for the hero. Joker being a chaos personification is the perfect antithesis to Batman's order, and while he may have originally followed the old Manichean constructs, he has developed a depth of character that is unmatched by any other villain. He's chaos written brilliantly. He's not a pointless villain, yet he seems born to be bad. By highlighting his mystique instead of glossing over the unknown aspects of his character, his creator and writers really have created as near to a perfect villain as I think anyone will ever see.

Each of Batman's best villains is like a dark mirror of a different aspect of Batman; one step in the wrong direction and Batman could have been the same way.

Ra's al Ghul is Batman's sense of justice. He has the same skillset and even the same goals, with just a little less self-restraint.

Mr. Freeze is Batman's inability to let go of the past. He lost a loved one and was never able to get over it, forming his entire identity around it and spending his life gaining the skills needed to resolve the problem that caused the loss. But it was channeled more selfishly.

The Riddler is Batman's detective nature. They're a perfect match for each-other in terms of their love and expertise for solving mysteries, but one creates and the other resolves. Neither could exist without the other.

Two-Face is Batman's double life, and his hatred of crime. Two-Face was a hero like Batman, once, but now he is torn between two lives - one in a nice suit and tie, and one twisted, insane life in the city's gutters. You could say the same thing of Batman.

The Penguin is Bruce Wayne's wealth and prestige. He shows what someone else would do with the influence that Wayne Foundations has.

The Joker is Gotham. Everything that makes the city attract the kinds of people that Batman is always facing is embodied in the Joker's madness. But that's also what attracts Batman.

There's a reason why these particular villains rise to the forefront of Batman's rogue gallery. They match the protagonist perfectly, and show off his character. There are other villains who do not really follow this pattern unless you really stretch things, though. Bane and Poison Ivy are comparatively poor matches for Batman. They're used to show his limitations as a hero, but for that to work the character needs to have been very firmly established already through battles with other villains. If you're making a Batman game, that work is already done for you, but for the other 99.99% of us, I feel like you should probably wait until your fifth or sixth game to use major villains like that.

@pianotm, ah, that clears that up then. Good thing I know there are two Garlands! But I wasn't sure which one you meant.

As a sidenote, I recall Ultimecia speaking at the very end of the game when she's actually visible, and I'm sure the stuff she was saying was spelled strangely because words must have changed in the course of history leading to that spot... uh, but I can barely remember.

As for Jecht, that's why I said "abject", but I see what you mean. He is absorbed by a parasitic entity and made to inflict an endless cycle of suffering on others. Maybe to symbolise his alcoholism influencing the way he treats his son? Or to mirror the role of Seymour's mother? I don't really know, unlike FFIX, I've never analysed X at length (which is totally an important thing I should be spending my time doing XD).

Anyway, I don't know anything about Batman. But the point about matching the villain to the protagonist in terms of flaws and strengths and themes is a good one, something I may have not thought of succinctly.

author=Sooz
The kind that falls in love with the hero.

Boy has the CCC got a character for you!

I ain't gonna spoil much but basically she's a super self-serving type who is after the protags soul, but then she sort of likes him as well and then stuff happens and if you wanna find out the rest let me know and I'll PM you before June's close.

I too am a sucker for mildly-empathic character hunters, remember Snow (White?) Wolf (was that her alias? It's been a while since I've played MGS) who was known to fall in love with her targets, crazy sniper gal.

Now thinking about it, it very well could have been White Wolf to line up with Grey Fox.

Mind you all the characters are suffixed as an animal, Grey Fox, Revolver Ocelot, Psycho Mantis, Vulcan Raven, Solid Snake etc...

Fuck it I'm gonna look it up.

Edit: SNIPER WOLF!!! HRRRNGNGNGNG I LITERALLY SAID IT JUST NOT IN THE RIGHT ORDER.

bahleted

I think it depends on the mood you're going for. Some of my favorite villains aren't relatable but are just super enthusiastic about being total douches, especially if they have a goal that's just absolutely selfish in every way possible. These work best in more camp or cheesy settings- Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Dark Shadows, etc.- where you can really push the boundaries of ridiculous behavior.

This type doesn't tend to work as well in more serious works; people talk up Final Fantasy 6, but my first experience was playing it as an adult, and I can't understand why anyone ever took Kefka seriously. In the middle of this world-spanning plot with wars and magic and serious shit was this spiteful little nothing who never gave off an aura of real threat, and only seemed to survive because he was the designated big bad. A more serious setting does better with a more serious (and seriously powerful) villain.

The relatable villain works best in smaller works, I think. In something epic, generally your characters on both sides do best with really broad strokes, and humanizing them too much takes away from their symbolic qualities. By contrast, if a story is personal, it requires relatable characters, because otherwise most people won't accept the given stakes. In a contest between two random doodz over which one gets a promotion, I don't give a shit; but if the contest is between two people I've gotten to know a little, I have a lot more of an interest in the outcome.

I really think the idea is less that the villain needs to be relatable and more that their actions follow some kind of internal logic. Generally, your audience shouldn't be sitting back wondering, "Wait, why did this and this happen? Why was the villain spending time and resources on this action here?" after the story's over.

a surprise nihilistic cosmic entity bent on destroying reality.

Azatoth?

author=LightningLord2
Azatoth?

Double post you.