SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN BANS ON GAY MARRIAGE IN US

author=slash
Right, but think about it - why would you be civil to someone who wants to hurt you? People have limits to their open-mindedness. You don't try and make peace with someone who's mugging you. What CashmereCat said isn't as violent as actually mugging someone, but if someone random on the internet started insulting you for no legitimate reason, you would have no reason to try and see their side of it.

Actually, that is not true - and accepting this is one of the most difficult things humans can do. Sometimes, aggression is unfortunately necessary to protect your own safety, but in most cases, it's an overreaction of our brains that Triggers at the first sign of a threat. The problem is, aggression almost always results in counter-aggression from the other side, and then a process called escalation happens. Attacking someone who is showing aggression towards you will only result in them feeling justified for disliking you and make their viewpoints even worse. If you really want an argument to end with a positive result, you have to suppress that incredibly powerful urge to lash out - but thereby, you're proving your opponent wrong in seeing you as "the enemy" and feeling like they have the right to attack you.
It's the difference between a Martin Luther King and a Malcolm X.


Let's be fair here: LockeZ's viewpoint has some merit, as it indeed is bad to reduce someone to just one part of their personality and judge them based only on that. However, in reality, it is not really possible to completely separate people and their views, actions and personality traits. After all, these define who we are as we go along, and we construct our identity around them. In a way, we are our views, actions and personality traits. So the idea of disapproving of someone's views, actions or personality traits without letting this influence your opinion of them as a person is only possible in theory, as far as I can see. What actually matters is not if, but to what degree we allow our own views to dictate our judgement of other people.

Of course, this goes both ways. I would be a hypocrite if I pretended that CashmereCat's viewpoint hasn't changed how I see him as a person. Because make no mistake, I am angry at him for having that viewpoint, and I did lose some respect for him because of it. CashmereCat knows my opinions on religion and that I am not at all opposed to it. But I think that religion can and must never be an excuse to discriminate people. And claiming that homosexuality were a sin (i.e. an act that is against the order of nature and the will of the highest being) is, in my opinion, an expression of an outrageous arrogance and self-righteousness unworthy of the benevolent God he claims to speak for.

But despite this, CashmereCat is not an evil person, he is not a monster, he is not an extremist. I still have respect for him as a human being - and that is exactly why I hope he is able and willing to learn. And no matter how offended any of us may be now, we should not deny him that possibility by lashing out against him and trying to chase him away. I think everyone here is better than that, and that's what we should show.


P.S.:
Linkis, when I first read your posts, my initial reaction was to be very annoyed. For the following reasons:
a) Many homosexual children are raised by heterosexual parents. Some of them even actually do try to "nudge" their children towards heterosexuality. Still, they are homosexual. Their very existence proves your point wrong.
b) There are billions of humans on earth right now - way too many, in my humble opinion. If anything, people giving birth to fewer children for a while is exactly what we need, and not a bad thing at all. Plus, homosexual people are still far from being the majority. So even if it were not completely absurd anyway, a "everyone is gay, no kids are born, humanity dies out" scenario would still be centuries away from now.

But then it occured to me that a lot of this is new for many of us, including you. We're humans. We have a natural tendency to be afraid of change and new things because for our brains, they mean potential danger and the prospect of the hard work of needing to adapt. This is not a good thing, but it is understandable.
That's why I hope homosexual people, and really anyone who is being discriminated against, can forgive the rest of us for not always immediately understanding the importance of their situation. We're humans. We can be slow, we can be weak, we are prone to making mistakes. That's not an excuse, I know. But many of us are going to need time to grow - perhaps a lot of it.

author=pianotm
@nhubi, you make a very good point. Straight people do breed like rabbits, so much so that we need all the counterbalance we can get.

Oh I'm waiting on the next big epidemic for that one. Spanish Influenza, mutated Smallpox, airborne retrovirus. Any of those will do.

That however is a bit of a downer on a thread originally made in justifiable celebration, so I'll save that for the next doomsday thread that rolls around.

It came up earlier and alright a bunch of people already talked about it but I am compelled by an unseen hand to offer my two cents about the word "queer".

Definitely still an insult, and I used to be super fine with it but y'know these days I'm personally okay using the awkwardly long alphabet soup acronyms like LGBTQIA+ or QUITLBAG. Always been a fan of that QUILTBAG. I'm super fine if anyone wants to reclaim it, that's their business! If I'm among friends I find it easiest to just say queer b/c it's a broad, umbrella term. But I've generally stopped using it in public spaces since...

There's no such thing as the "queer community" or "queer issues" imo! Just several different communities with frequently overlapping wants/needs. And acting like there's one even semi-unified group of "queer people" tends to shove all the intra-community shitfests under the rug.

For anyone who's been around supposed queer-safe spaces, just look how the trans folks get treated by the LGB folks half the time. Or you could talk about the ways bisexual folks often get the shit end of the stick from both straight folks for being "gay" and lesbian/gay folks for being "straight". Orrr you could talk about the ways that white, mainstream gay movements have been upholding white cis gay men as the standard of Acceptable Homosexuality and pushing assimilation and "we're no different from straight people!" as endgame goals.

IDK, there's a lot of examples and I dunno if this is the best place to talk about that kind of thing, but this is why I'm less in favor of an umbrella term like queer these days.

Coincidentally, this is also why I'm very lukewarm about the supreme court's decision! I don't really care about marriage and am way more concerned about trans rights and overall better access to housing and healthcare. The way that many QUILTBAG movements have been focusing on gay marriage for several years now marks an emphasis on individual rights vs. things that would benefit entire communities. My best hope is that now that people can get Gay Married it won't turn into a "you're equal now! you have all the rights straight people have!" situation. I'm bitter and cynical but y'know, if it's important to other people let them celebrate. Still a historic decision and there's a lot of couples (and single ppl) who are happy about it.

Politics within the "queer community" (generally not an offensive term and absolutely a community in the sense that people within it regularly have dialogue via various methods about the state of their community and it's relations to others) are a completely different and complex issue, PentagonBuddy. Though it is really a bunch of separate communities with different interests/attributes but are commonly united by their "queer-ness".

Trans people are ignored severely, as are the other sexualities and genders that aren't cisgender gay and cisgender lebsian folks, in queer politics and the advancement of our rights. People can have many dissenting opinions about the specifics but the next steps are clear, and the majority of them involve progress in the rights of trans/nonbinary people.

author=InfectionFiles
Adon, aren't you like 12?

i'm only 17 sis but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. nice try though.

irl makes me feel young, but rpgmaker just makes me feel old.

author=slash
It's not our responsibility to teach people not to hurt others. In theory, it was their parents'. Still, if I can help by talking about it, I'll try, but it's never a role I'd want to force on anyone. It's exhausting and frustrating and it feels like it never ends.

My mother's a devout Christian. I can tell there's still a lot of bad blood between her and homosexuals. Up until very recently, she'd just go off on a tangent and start blurting out the 'f' word (in its entirety, at that) like it was candy. She still gets into the old homophobic/transphobic shtick when we're in the car (her most recent being her being offended when gay men call each other "girls").

I changed for myself, because my parents sure as hell weren't going to lead me down the right path. I saw a gay man on deviantart going off on heterosexuals, claiming that they're "the problem with society", and originally I was a lot like some of the people here: taken aback and offended with a desire to lash out with "who are you - being who you are - to insult me?!" (this is what I actually felt, and it's important that I'm honest with who I used to be).

I decided to withhold my anger and try to come to terms with why they might feel that way, and I've spent the past few years now slowly coming to terms with and unlearning my homophobic past. Now I'm a staunch supporter of the LGBT and I really don't care if my parents know (I've told them many times and posted my feelings all over Facebook for the rest of my family and friends to see).

With the passing of this marriage equality act, I've seen a traditional Christian minister quake at the altar when discussing what he called "the thing that happened Friday, you know what it is". He talked about the "colors and the hashtags" and putting his Christian spin on his own "day that love won". He's fearing how this might impact society and straight up said "the United States isn't mentioned in Revelations" in the context of its proposed destruction.

The only thing I want to do right now is try and bridge the gap between his Christianity and everyone else's Christianity, specifically that of the gay Christian churches. I know that something can be done and that he has no reason to fear, but I also know that he's dismissive of this proposal as everything is a sin to him and to "deviate" from his teaching is to do God a disservice. And I'm not saying these things to tear him down, because I respect the hell out of him. He's more human than any other pastor I've met, even if I'm not one of his "sheep".

It would be easier to walk away, but we need to keep discussions open so that others (like myself) might change.

You can find the church and their sermons at: http://aboutfaithbible.com/#/media
As of this post, the relevant sermon ("In Times Like These") isn't available, but should be shortly. I also noticed yesterday that, at times, he sounds a bit like Heath Ledger's Joker.

I was gone all weekend and lol @ reading ten pages of rmn users being the kind of people who'd post on a site like rmn so have a favorite picture from the gay pride weekend:

author=PentagonBuddy
Coincidentally, this is also why I'm very lukewarm about the supreme court's decision! I don't really care about marriage and am way more concerned about trans rights and overall better access to housing and healthcare. The way that many QUILTBAG movements have been focusing on gay marriage for several years now marks an emphasis on individual rights vs. things that would benefit entire communities. My best hope is that now that people can get Gay Married it won't turn into a "you're equal now! you have all the rights straight people have!" situation. I'm bitter and cynical but y'know, if it's important to other people let them celebrate. Still a historic decision and there's a lot of couples (and single ppl) who are happy about it.

Celebrating is important! I agree that the SCOTUS ruling wasn't ideal (they went marriage as a fundamental right rather than sexual orientation being protected status as well) and as the nature of a culture war you always need to fight but you still need to rest and reflect on the progress made. It's both important for your mental health and the health of the cause as long as the culture war continues.

CashmereCat, and everyone else who sort of half went along with this opinion (I dunno I'm not really gonna get mad at specific people here), there's a specific point you're missing here.

I don't care one way or another about homosexuality, because it's not really my preference. But as a transgender, I have been "co-opted" into the LGBT community. That is, not only do they claim me, but people against what I think and feel also recognize me as part of that group. So I'll go ahead and speak.

I don't believe LGBT is inborn. That may come as a shock, but I can trace being trans to a few specific incidents when I was 6 or so. I assume the same to be the case for many gay/lesbian people, they had something happen that made them prefer a certain gender more than others. But here's the point. We don't have the right to tell them what to do.

• If LGBT is a choice, then this means they have the choice to fall in love with who they want. Telling a person to make the choice we want them to is not choice. It's coercion. And I've had enough of coercion.
• If LGBT is not a choice, then this means they were born with this preference.
• Given the following, whether or not it is their choice, it is not our choice to make for them.

While what amerk said is okay, it sort of follows the assumption that well, this is not acceptance but lukewarm tolerance. Further, homosexuality is not a sin. Yes, you heard that right. It's not.

"Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."

There were things that were actually considered sins against God. And there were things that were culturally detestable. I'm not personally into it (mainly because of having creepy males hit on me). Maybe you're not. But this is not a sin.

So what about Sodom and Gomorroh?

"Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Angels don't have specific sexes, so this is more about rape. Speaking of which, there are several passages in the Bible that are translated to imply homosexuality, but are only put as sexual immorality. What is sexual morality? A faithful, committed, consensual, and honest relationship. What is sexual immorality? Well, the opposite of that, and also this below.

Temple prostitution.

Homosexuality is sinful if it's in the context of prostitution. Or if it's butt rape in prison. But then, so is heterosexuality in that context. You are using your body not for joy or pleasure or procreation, but trading it for money. Or you are using your body in a way that is against someone's will.

So, now, let's talk about a few things. Namely, sin and righteousness, and about the sanctity of marriage.

Tell me. Is murder a sin?

"Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him."

Every 29 hours a transgender person is killed.

This is a consequence of belief that LGBT life is sinful.

What is righteousness?

37“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!

You've been lied to by your church. You mission on this Earth is not to avoid sin, but to have mercy. That is righteousness.

I attended a trendy fundie church in Richmond. You know, the kind where people sing songs from hit Christian rock bands, and get sermons displayed on massive powerpoint projections. I attended until they gave a sermon on family, where the guy said under a Q&A this "I'm a LGBT person in a relationship, should I divorce?" and he was like "Normally, divorce is evil, but in this case that marriage/relationship was a sham and you need to leave." No, wrong. Divorce is a sign of broken relationships. We do not turn our backs on loved ones because of stupid moral rules. Maybe because of heartbreak, or because we're upset with them. But never because this rule says we can't be together.

Well, I left alright.

I walked out of that church, in the middle of things, out the door, and cut ties with it. Another church I saw at Pride had a banner that said "The Body of Christ has AIDS." I'm like "that's quirky, so I asked about it." The body of Christ is the people, and when the people suffer, Christ suffers.

The body of Christ has been beaten and killed by homophobic thugs claiming to be Christians. Tell me again how Christianity says homosexuality is a sin. If you were killing the worst off LGBT person, you were killing Jesus!

One last thought. Let's remove the "gay" label from this topic. Think about this as people, not "gay" people. Are you against the idea that people have the right to be married? To have profitable jobs? To be happy and safe? If so, what can be said about you?

author=bulmabriefs144
One last thought. Let's remove the "gay" label from this topic. Think about this as people, not "gay" people. Are you against the idea that people have the right to be married? To have profitable jobs? To be happy and safe? If so, what can be said about you?

"SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN BANS ON MARRIAGE IN US"

It's kind of an important distinction. It'd be the same as saying "Ice cream recalled" instead of "Blue Bell ice cream recalled".

author=amerk
Edit: I find it kind of odd in the course of this topic, and even on other sites (even media-related ones) that the term "queer" has not yet been made to be insulting, especially in a politically correct era where such terms as "fag" and the n-word (I can't even compell myself to say it even as a matter of point) have already been deemed as condescending and spiteful.

Calling somebody "queer" to me is kind of like calling them weird, strange, out of the norm, etc.

> "fag"
> won't use "n-word" as if it's foundationally worse

That's a scary line to draw.