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Posts
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Sooz
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Closeauthor=Craze
i'm gonna echo kentona with the "like the games, hate the controls" thing. i just hate being able to envision doing something in a game and knowing the buttons in my mind, but then not being able to press them in time. that's not what gaming's about, for me! i like gameplay complexity, not external device complexity.
Yeah, that's my problem with shit like QTEs. Like, there's a button on screen, but I'm all, "Wait, shit, what? These things don't have colors or anything, they just have positions I don't look at this shit OH GOD WHAT CONTROLLER AM I USING WHAT IS HAPPENING" and then I'm dead.
Do other people actually memorize what their buttons look like?
ETA:
author=kentona
Like, I am trying to find out why fighting games have this arcane control scheme mantra and the only answer I see reliably is "lol maybe this genre is not 4 u!". It seems like no one is really asking fundamental questions or doing deep analysis. 'Doing things this way because that's way things are done!' doesn't feel like a satisfying answer to me. idk
You must find interacting with humans to be frustrating, then, because that is the answer to like 99% of everything. (ESPECIALLY in videro gaems, where a lot of profitable demographics are not only suckers for nostalgia but often actively drag their heels against anything resembling difference.)
I mean, I am 100% for trying different stuff but if some people like their traditional pretzelfinger gameplay, that's fine. Long as we're allowed both.
author=kentona
Thinking on Nintendo and games and tradition, I notice that MOG rationalization seems to be "this is the way it's done, yo!" and no one really questioned why. Except Nintendo did. And they came up with Smash Bros. And it was a huge hit.
Like, I am trying to find out why fighting games have this arcane control scheme mantra and the only answer I see reliably is "lol maybe this genre is not 4 u!". It seems like no one is really asking fundamental questions or doing deep analysis. 'Doing things this way because that's way things are done!' doesn't feel like a satisfying answer to me. idk
That's not really fair; I did answer that. I said (and Darken touched on it) that a lot of the manuevers, strategies, tactics, and mechanics of fighting games don't work well in control schemes other than the D-Pad. Smash is a good example, but it took a very long time for Smash to integrate itself into the fighting game community because it; 1. Doesn't have the same depth of many traditional fighters because of its lack of the D-Pad controls. Smash at its tactical highest doesn't even come close to the level of play that 3rd Strike or Garou offers to even mid level fighting game players. That reason is almost entirely due to the differences in control schematics. 2. Smash is sort of almost veering into a different genre than traditional fighters, but that is disputed, to be fair.
I'm not saying 'This is how it is yo' in an implication that fighting games are fundamentally tied forever to the D-Pad scheme, what I am saying is that in the years and years of fighting game development, other control schemes have emerged and almost all of them fall flat to the incredible fluidity and depth of the d-pad mechanic.
Fighting games are one of the most analyzed genres in the history of video games (don't believe me? Check out Shoryuken.com, delve deep, and see you next year), and very rarely do people settle in tradition just because. It's been this way for so long because every attempt to replace it has failed.
author=Ratty
Good point, but then it makes me wonder why people hate Bubsy 3D and like traditional fighting games.
lol what? Bubsy 3D was not only a fundamentally terrible game, comparing it to an entirely different genre is apples and oranges.
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=kentonaThat's not really fair; I did answer that. I said (and Darken touched on it) that a lot of the manuevers, strategies, tactics, and mechanics of fighting games don't work well in control schemes other than the D-Pad. Smash is a good example, but it took a very long time for Smash to integrate itself into the fighting game community because it; 1. Doesn't have the same depth of many traditional fighters because of its lack of the D-Pad controls. Smash at its tactical highest doesn't even come close to the level of play that 3rd Strike or Garou offers to even mid level fighting game players. That reason is almost entirely due to the differences in control schematics. 2. Smash is sort of almost veering into a different genre than traditional fighters, but that is disputed, to be fair.
Thinking on Nintendo and games and tradition, I notice that MOG rationalization seems to be "this is the way it's done, yo!" and no one really questioned why. Except Nintendo did. And they came up with Smash Bros. And it was a huge hit.
Like, I am trying to find out why fighting games have this arcane control scheme mantra and the only answer I see reliably is "lol maybe this genre is not 4 u!". It seems like no one is really asking fundamental questions or doing deep analysis. 'Doing things this way because that's way things are done!' doesn't feel like a satisfying answer to me. idk
That still kind of sounds like "the old strategies aren't as effective if we shift paradigms, therefore let's stick with the old paradigm". But yeah, I totally underestimated how analyzed the genre is. I'm reading up on it a bit now.
My most recent experience with the more traditional fighting genre (other than Smash, which I agree is p.much a different genre), was Soul Caliber 3 for the Xbox. My reaction was "ffs button mashing is EXTREMELY effective in this game. lame."
LightningLord2
230
The D-Pad motion only works best for the tight niche community around it with tons of dedication towards the gaming system - it's brutalizing anyone new to the genre and nobody attempts to try a new control scheme to cater to the old community.
No fighting game comes even close to the sales of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (which the FGC almost universally hates), not even Street Fighter 4 (which falls short of Smash Wii U/3DS as well). So much for "Any attempt to replace D-Pad failed".
No fighting game comes even close to the sales of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (which the FGC almost universally hates), not even Street Fighter 4 (which falls short of Smash Wii U/3DS as well). So much for "Any attempt to replace D-Pad failed".
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=Ratty
Good point, but then it makes me wonder why people hate Bubsy 3D and like traditional fighting games.
lol what? Bubsy 3D was not only a fundamentally terrible game, comparing it to an entirely different genre is apples and oranges.
It was an extreme example, I know, but I'm just wondering how an objectively difficult to master control scheme works in one game but doesn't in others. At least by my incredibly limited knowledge of game design, doesn't an easy-to-pick-up control scheme lead to players having fun with their games?
But meh, I guess it all comes down to whether you enjoy games with any kind of steep learning curve involved. I enjoy them to an extent, but if I feel like I can't even get past the basic of basics when playing a game around the first or second trys, I typically abandon it quickly.
author=kentona
That still kind of sounds like "the old strategies aren't as effective if we shift paradigms, therefore let's stick with the old paradigm".
New paradigms have been tried though, is what I am saying!
author=LL
The D-Pad motion only works best for the tight niche community around it with tons of dedication towards the gaming system - it's brutalizing anyone new to the genre and nobody attempts to try a new control scheme to cater to the old community.
Literally, demonstrably wrong on both accounts, and I have touched on both of these points in the past few posts. It's like you're implying there's this brutalized underclass of oppressed, disenfranchised gamers who are throwing themselves on the ramparts because they can't throw a fireball, but MEANWHILE IN THE REAL WORLD people are teaching their grandpas how to cancel into Super Combos.
author=LL
No fighting game comes even close to the sales of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (which the FGC almost universally hates), not even Street Fighter 4 (which falls short of Smash Wii U/3DS as well). So much for "Any attempt to replace D-Pad failed".
Most of Smash Bros fame comes from its name, its very famous roster of legacy characters, and its accessibility. All three of these are fine to have, but I am not talking about just sales here. When I say "any attempt to replace the D-Pad failed", I am not talking about DOLLA DOLLA BILLS YA'LL or even the number of people who play. I am talking about the attempts to "replace the D-Pad have failed in terms of replication the same depth of mechanics, gameplay, and technique", which is what is important to traditional fighting game fans (and I reiterate, there are a fucking ton and not a niche at all).
The financial success and the amount of people playing Smash is great for Smash, but perhaps for the very same reason that Smash is successful (simpler controls, non traditional motions, etc etc) it doesn't come close to the amount of depth that have kept millions of fighting game fans going for years and years. No shame on Smash though! Do your thing, Smash!
It's the same argument I used before. If someone invents Bikini Chess! that's sexier, easier to play, and more accessible than Chess, does that mean that classic Chess as a game should have to change or something? Uh, no. Basically what I'm hearing is, 'why not make arbitrary changes that nobody who actually currently enjoys, participates, and pays for this community asked for or cares about. You know, just because!'
I'm not a stickler for tradition or whatever, I'm just of the common sense notion that if you're going to change something, great, just have a good reason for it, and change is only effective if its better than what came before. Nobody is reinventing the wheel just because, and if something does come about that's better than the wheel, great! By all means, keep trying! Until then, people drive their cars, push their carts, and pull their wagons on wheels.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
It's super not fair to attribute Smash's success totally toward controls; it'd be like saying that a blockbuster movie got more profits than an indie horror because the music was better. There's a whole lot going into Smash's overall success.
author=Sooz
It's super not fair to attribute Smash's success totally toward controls
I never said that.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
EDIT: I can't read.
the best part of conversing with Feldschlacht IV is the casual facetious use of very stereotyped black slang by all participants.
yo.
yo.
I like both kinds of games. Even though I'm not great at either of them.
Back when I used to go to a weekly anime club, when a new fighting game came out they'd often hold a tournament. That was the best time to play for me because no one knew how to play yet and hadn't spent like 100 hours learning stuff. I even won once XD
Back when I used to go to a weekly anime club, when a new fighting game came out they'd often hold a tournament. That was the best time to play for me because no one knew how to play yet and hadn't spent like 100 hours learning stuff. I even won once XD
LightningLord2
230
I'm not gonna try arguing anymore - arguing with Fighting Game players never goes anywhere.
It's not a fighting game thing, but the hardcore communities in games generally tend towards being the kind of people who are very firmly believing their game can do no wrong.
It's not a fighting game thing, but the hardcore communities in games generally tend towards being the kind of people who are very firmly believing their game can do no wrong.
author=LightningLord2
I'm not gonna try arguing anymore - arguing with Fighting Game players never goes anywhere.
It's not a fighting game thing, but the hardcore communities in games generally tend towards being the kind of people who are very firmly believing their game can do no wrong.
That isn't the conversation we seem to be having here. The conversation from my angle, seems to be the the asking of a question and not liking the answer.
author=LightningLord2
It's not a fighting game thing, but the hardcore communities in games generally tend towards being the kind of people who are very firmly believing their game can do no wrong.
You should go on the League of Legends forums a lot more. There are so many people who not only think the opposite, but whine and moan about it almost daily.
Competitive gaming as a whole feels like a freaking nightmare at times.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Simmer down, kids, or I'll turn this thread around and we're going back home.
TBF I commonly appropriate Black slang wherever I'm posting.
author=kentona
the best part of conversing with Feldschlacht IV is the casual facetious use of very stereotyped black slang by all participants.
yo.
TBF I commonly appropriate Black slang wherever I'm posting.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
There are some fairly good arguments against that, but this is really not the thread for it.
author=Sooz
There are some fairly good arguments against that, but this is really not the thread for it.
I know, and I've heard them, but I don't agree with really any of them. True, this isn't the place for it though.
author=Ratty
Competitive gaming as a whole feels like a freaking nightmare at times.
It's pretty much what you put into it, I think. The best part about competitive gaming is that you don't have to participate in it to enjoy most games!
