OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

@Sated: I have watched the movie. It made me super uncomfortable, since it echoed experiences I've had with men, like I mentioned above. I get the context. I still think it's lesbophobic. (LIKE SERIOUSLY: men using the word Dyke is lesbophobic. This isn't rocket science.)

Who's makin' snap judgements now? (SPOILERS: It is you. You are the one assuming things.)

;D

bahleted

but seriously, who doesn't drink?
E:

author=Feldschlacht IV
Can one weave something problematic/uncomfortable into a piece or a narrative and it be okay?

not that I've seen.

great solutions to the "I want to do/say/present a thing I'm fairly certain will make some people uncomfortable for X reason"

the dreaded trigger warning

or if you'd rather break every bone in your hand than type those words, just saying something like "the word dyke gets used in this exchange fyi" (I mean you can say "there's a slur in here" but that can be too vague)

or you can post obnoxious smilies and go "wow, i can't believe you got offended by a slur" but this helps nothing

@Feldschlacht: obviously it's more complex than that, but like damn thanks for, idk, asking an actual question that can be discussed

i gotta jet for now tho so yup for now that's my ~amazing contribution~

my attempts at diffusing tension via awkward humour isn't working. I am lost.

author=Pent
@Feldschlacht: obviously it's more complex than that, but like damn thanks for, idk, asking an actual question that can be discussed

np homie but it probably gonna be skipped over anyway in favor of talking shit about each other

author=Feld
It makes me think of an interesting question though; does the portrayal of a problematic character/theme/setting in a piece mean the the piece itself is intrinsically problematic, or is it more complex than that? Does something that make you uncomfortable mean that piece is objectively uncomfortable or problematic, or is it more complex than that?

It's sort of like when George R.R. Martin responded to criticism that A Song of Ice and Fire was sexist because of its depiction of many women, and his response was "Yes, that's how I wrote Westeros, because Westeros is really fucking shitty."

Can one weave something problematic/uncomfortable into a piece or a narrative and it be okay?

Alright this is a p interesting topic so I would like to nurture this seed of discussion a little.

It's a complex thing! I'll use Chasing Amy as a bad example of this, since it's come up. The problem with a lot of media is that they play plot lines like this too straight. A good commentary should be based on subversion and discussion of the topic, rather than simply including it and saying "SEE DO YOU SEE WHY THIS IS A BAD THING LOOK HOW UNHAPPY THESE CHARACTERS ARE!!!!" which ASOIAF unfortunately falls into, especially when rape happens. In Chasing Amy, yeah, you have the really obviously homophobic guy (the main dude's bff) that flings slurs around... but you also have the main dude, who pursues a woman he KNOWS is a lesbian, and is then rewarded with her by the narrative anyway. This, at it's core, plays into the "oh well all queer women just haven't met the right man yet~" trope, which is lesbophobic.

But hey, I'm actually super invested in seeing misogyny and homophobia and all that jazz challenged in media, since yeah media is an excellent vehicle for starting conversations. A good example: I'm not one of the folks who think Mad Max: Fury Road was feminist gospel, but I can't deny the fact it started a lot of great conversations and was a step in the right direction for movies about women. Present in the movie was a violent patriarchy with implied rape and violence against women. The movie did not linger on these things, but they were There. Sure, it didn't talk about it, but they were There and handled pretty well and kicked off discussions amongst young folks about patriarchy and women's rights. That's a pretty exciting thing! And while the director was a man, he listened to the women around him, and iirc he got his wife to edit/cut the movie, since he wanted a woman to be the one to do that.

Basically IT CAN BE DONE, the key to doing it is 1) let people who are the experts talk about their own oppression, and 2) if you are including a character who experiences oppression that you don't, listen to the folks that have that experience and trust them when they say "this is cool/not cool." It is a difficult, humbling thing to do, but it's also v v v important.

bahleted

author=Sated

It's a film that fails to understand homosexual issues and relations so hard that I'm surprised it wasn't written by someone from another planet. Now apologize for calling another person a retard. That's not cool.

I disagree. It's ultimately a romantic comedy and so you lose some of the depth that's probably required to properly explore everything that's brought up (for example, Alyssa's lesbian friends don't get a lot of screen time and this does lead to a limited representation of that group of friends), but I still think it's an honest attempt at exploring the way romance conflicts with friendship in scenarios were people are confronted with things that they don't understand and/or haven't encountered before and/or aren't willing to accept about themselves. Yes, this means that some of the characters are <something>phobic. Yes, this means that some of the humour is crass (and perhaps difficult to swallow). But no, I don't think this means the movie is homophobic as a general rule. For each horrible comment, there is a tonne of character growth that someone (Holden especially) goes through to balance it out.

I think that this is a balanced review of the issues that are explored in the movie. It's certainly a better (and possibly fairer) look at it than I could write.

I'll give you that it doesn't screw up absolutely everything, and does in fact make some interesting insights, like the ones Volrath mentioned. However, it missed the mark so hard about how these issues relate to me in several ways that it was painful to watch.

author=Sated
I don't have the time nor the energy to censor myself for the sake of other people. I don't know nor want to know all the possible things that could "trigger" someone. If I want to say something then I'm going to say it. If other people don't like what I have to say then the forums give them a tool that lets them ignore all of my posts. I personally disagree with the concept but whatever, it's there.

Dude. You couldn't even stop yourself from calling someone a retard because they disagreed with your opinion of a movie. You also seem to (and correct me if I'm wrong) pick avatars based on how much they'll gross others out. Read that whole last paragraph that Volrath wrote, as I think it says a lot. Sometimes I feel like you're nearly incapable of mustering the basic levels of respect for other human beings. Which is a shame, because I respect you as a mapper and developer.

author=Feldschlacht IV

author=unity
Dude. You couldn't even stop yourself from calling someone a retard because they disagreed with your opinion of a movie. You also seem to (and correct me if I'm wrong) pick avatars based on how much they'll gross others out. Read that whole last paragraph that Volrath wrote, as I think it says a lot. Sometimes I feel like you're nearly incapable of mustering the basic levels of respect for other human beings. Which is a shame, because I respect you as a mapper and developer.

Be that as it may with Sated (and I agree with what you're saying in respect to him), what he's saying does have merit.

'Censorship', or if you'd rather, 'reining in' of ideas, thoughts, and expression is a messy, slippery concept, and I'd much rather someone say 'Hey, apologies if this bothers you, but I have to put this out there' after the fact than someone not be honest at all.

As much as can be said about not being a dick, being considerate, and thinking of others, the fact remains that we aren't owed not to be offended, and I think it could make a thought provoking argument that in some cases one must be offended and must be challenged to open ourselves up to new and different viewpoints, thoughts and ideas, even if it hurts to do so.

I don't think there's validity in the thought being uncomfortable or being put in an unpleasant situation is always objectively bad. It's rarely someone's place to say 'this is gonna be uncomfortable and its for your own good!!!', but people are too different and the world is too broad to perpetually manage 'comfortability' when it comes to expression.

You have a good point. You can't just put a lid on everything unpleasant in the world. You can't cure hatred and violence just by asking everyone to stop calling other people hurtful names. My aim has never been some sort of world-wide censorship that pretends that all problems don't exist.

I don't have some perfect answer. I just want people to have common decency and respect for others. I want the extreme hurt, despair, and fear to go away, and a world where people can say "Yes, I feel like I was born into the wrong body" or "Yes, I am in love with a fellow woman" without having to worry about insult, injury or worse. I am very aware of how naive that sounds.