OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

author=Gourd_Clae
BM, I like you but I don't really understand why you keep ejecting "Stop talking, please." into this thread. I still see people getting something out of this, and as an observer, I'm getting a whole lot out of this. Seriously, I'm like 16 and I know only the bare minimum about the topics here. Just watching this thread is giving me insight that I'll probably need as a future adult. I want to see the world be a nicer, happier place where people are safe to be themselves. At the same time, I don't want to lose ways to express myself. How do I reconcile these two desires? Some people in this thread are making it out to be a horribly irreconcilable pair of ideas, but honestly other people see it as just trying/listening more. Which I don't find to be a lot to ask.

I think it's worth talking about. There are billions of people in this world a good chunk of which will live a full lifetime - which can be a lot of time. There's surely enough time and/or people to think about it at least.

Okay that's fine. I just figured it was becoming redundant by now.

author=Solitayre
This is coming closer to making me want to lock the topic than anything that came beforehand.

Let's do that and pretend we didn't.

I've already reported this thread in asking for it to be locked, you'd likely know as it was your unrelated post I reported. (can't report my own posts what is this horseshit?)

author=Alichains
It would be useful to have a framework of what's acceptable behavior and what meaningful dissent actually is.

It's an indistinguishable line, nothing is that simple, I'm afraid.

I was put on this Earth to be the anti-Max McGee.

The Agent Smith to your Neo.

The Zenigata to your Lupin.

The Javert to your Valjean.

My name is Solitayre, for I am one.

First of all, wrt to the thread closing: I'm actually on board with that? I'm not here because I want to talk about this stuff with absolutely everyone that's popped into this thread. Some folks have been fine to talk to - even folks who have disagreed with me! - but the main reason I'm in here is because there has been absolutely awful things that have been said that I'm uncomfortable leaving unchallenged, since these awful things directly affect me and people that I care about.

Really my opinion that RMN is a shit place to discuss social justice issues has only strengthened! However:

author=Alichains
It would be useful to have a framework of what's acceptable behavior and what meaningful dissent actually is.

THIS is actually a topic I'm super invested in, since yeah making places Safe for all kinds of folks is indeed possible, albeit difficult. There is no indistinguishable line - the line is actually pretty clear in most places from where I'm standing. Here's the thing: I say RMN is a shit place to talk about this, but the reason I say this is because there are no ground rules for having difficult discussions. This topic has been derailed, littered with slurs both about and directed at people involved in the conversation, and made sour by the presence of folks who's number one goal is to shut the conversation down.

The rough thing about making spaces safer is it involves moderators taking harder stances against abusive behaviour than we've seen here. Like, imo, people flinging the t-slur around? Not okay. Should not be allowed. People making homophobic jokes after pages of talking about why Slurs Are Bad? Not okay. People coming in to derail with "WOW U GUYS ARE ALL FUCKIN STUPID WHY R U STILL HAVING THIS DISCUSSION WOW YOU SHOULD TALK ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE VIDEO GAMES YOU CHUCKLEFUCKS LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"? Boot 'em out.

Basically, if people demonstrate they cannot behave while discussing the topic at hand, they should lose the privilege of participation. People might say this is unfair, and I say: hey, grow the fuck up! You wanna talk about sensitive issues? Then be respectful. You're allowed to disagree, but you do it in a respectful manner. Apologize when you upset somebody. Don't derail. Respect that other people are going to have different life experiences than your own.

This sorta thing facilitates an actual discussion where people can actually learn things if they want to participate and learn. I am a-okay with people's views not lining up 100% with my own, but I'm not okay with people being abusive and awful when that is the case. There has been a lot of abuse in this thread, and until that stuff is outlawed, I gotta maintain: RMN is not the place for social justice discussions.

Idk, if mods ever feeling like talking more, I'd be more than happy to offer suggestions about creating safer spaces...? Like it's not an easy process and it DOES involve making some Tough Calls, and if that's not something you all wanna do, that's your choice!

Perhaps a new "Social Justice" subforum is in order? One where once you're booted, you're gone for good. Like a staff forum open to the public. Screen out known troublemakers from the beginning; I'm sure we have enough evidence who those people are by now.

And to echo Mog, if someone comes in after this and says "censorship is gay and retarded and fascist", I can't promise dental coverage.

author=Cor
Perhaps a new "Social Justice" subforum is in order? One where once you're booted, you're gone for good. Like a staff forum open to the public. Screen out known troublemakers from the beginning; I'm sure we have enough evidence who those people are by now.

I don't think we need to fundamentally alter the structure of the site to maintain standards of discussion. Just foster an environment that breeds intelligence and consideration.

I find catering to absolutely all kinds of people's sensibilities site-wide is an impossible task. Someone, somewhere down the line, is going to get offended about something, and having situations where a person can get punished because the offended party got their way at all times by calling papa moderator is going to become quite unfriendly to people who are (or should), at the very core, be free to express themselves however they please without fearing reprisals from others, even if their ways of expressing are not tasteful to some and downright offensive to others.

Making individual threads that are policed though, could work. As in, make x thread about y discussion and place a little tag or disclaimer appointing certain rules that should be followed inside the thread in order to participate in them, with moderator cooperation for that thread to be patrolled. This way people can get their happy places and people with malicious intent could be rightfully punished for wanting to intentionally start shit with someone.

But site-wide? Pls no. I already had quite my fill of forums that used to be active but which activity slowly dyign until it completely dried up because the place became a complete minefield or sensibilities, where you couldn't take two steps without something blowing up or stepping on a mandragora and getting yelled at in protest. I'd like to continue my freedom of being able to make games where i can call someone a faggot or a retard without people assuming i'm doing it because i hate gays or because i'm an ableist piece of shit.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like my teeth are compromised!

If it's contained to one sub-forum that has higher standards of discussions than the rest, it might not be an issue.

I liked the forums better when the discussion wasn't about topics like this. It's important, sure, but it's also creating a really bad enviroment, because people won't ever agree about this and will inevitably start hating each other for not having the same opinion.
I don't see what's wrong with a forum that is mostly about not deadly serious topics. Surely there are better places than RMN to discuss social justice, and creating an entire new forum for it would be a mistake, I think.
Tell me I'm trying to silence important discussions or whatever, but I don't think there's honestly a single person that thinks this thread has brought mostly positive things here.

author=SnowOwl
I liked the forums better when the discussion wasn't about topics like this. It's important, sure, but it's also creating a really bad enviroment, because people won't ever agree about this and will inevitably start hating each other for not having the same opinion.
I don't see what's wrong with a forum that is mostly about not deadly serious topics. Surely there are better places than RMN to discuss social justice, and creating an entire new forum for it would be a mistake, I think.
Tell me I'm trying to silence important discussions or whatever, but I don't think there's honestly a single person that thinks this thread has brought mostly positive things here.

You can't blame the thread for causing arguments. Its a chicken-or-the-egg kind of deal. Is it the topic of the thread that creates the issues or the attitude of the posters within it? I've already laid down my stance on that. TLDR: Its the poster's fault. You don't toss a guy off a bridge into a river and then blame the river for drowning him.




The thread has been derailed, the OP is nowhere to be found (having likely given up on the thread and wanting nothing to do with any of you) and once again the topic has become a debate boiling down to "This is the internet, people are hateful, ignore them because you can't do anything about what people post." And other miscellaneous bullcrap.

I have learned, however, that apparently making threads about topics like these is very irritating to a lot of people, and I think its because we always see the same faces coming out of the woodwork, bringing their soapboxes with them. If the issue is "this is a video game forum we don't need topics about heavy issues" why must there always be these same posters frothing at the mouth to debate them? Obviously there are people very invested to make sure that these kinds of discussions don't go unchallenged and un-soiled upon. Whether by a difference of opinion, malice, or annoyance.

Then again, I hold the opinion that any and all discussion on internet forums is worthless, useless, vain ego-stroking. So this is just par for the course. But even conceding that point, why get so worked up over a trans thread? Leave the trans thread alone and let those who are invested in it be invested, and it will die on its own no harm done. But nooooooooooo.

If someone made a thread about how much they respect the military returning from the field for all their service and self-sacrifice, and then you had dissenters with differing opinions coming in to expound that the soldiers don't deserve the respect they get because of whatever hackneyed reason, you can bet that nooooobody would be tolerating that shit.

So why all the hooplah about this thread, which is very serious to some people? Individuals who have no point of reference to speak about the issues and who have no real investment in the issues at hand have no place to speak in it. You cannnnn but you'd be a jackaaaaassssss.


See now I'm bringing my own pointless bullshit into this I'm gonna stop talking right now

Heated discussion is fine but when you start slinging around insults and creating a hostile environment to discuss (which requires back and forth, not an 'I say it's fact so it must be fact and anyone who says otherwise is wrong nyaaar' attitude) then it turns into a shit-storm. And ain't no-one like shit storms.

A lot can be learned from spirited argument, as long as you're willing to listen to each other instead of drown/chase each other out.