OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

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Exactly what I meant, mawk. Thanks for that.

And Libby, I apologize if I came off too strongly into that direction. There is a place for it to exist and I do appreciate that. Sometimes it's just great to play a ridiculously oversexualized character (I bought and played X-Blade for that reason and got the intended experience - mediocre, but some solid fun).
It's just difficult to see something else for a change.

Anyways, with all what they are "used to see" in that context, they are still acting like pathetic idiots. But nothing we can do about that, just give them a whack and see where their rage goes to.
it is my solemn hope that reactionary gamers will eventually boycott themselves into a tiny corner of the gaming community and leave everybody else in relative peace
I hope Riot stays the course and gives a response akin to Jourdon Anderson's letter in magnitudes of "fuck off". Fuck the whole of gamer culture that breeds that kind of vitriol.

author=mawk
it is my solemn hope that reactionary gamers will eventually boycott themselves into a tiny corner of the gaming community and leave everybody else in relative peace

100% this.
To be fair, if they added a couple sizes to her bust, then there'd be an equal but opposite reaction from vocal feminists. In both cases, it's a vocal minority; the vast majority of the planet doesn't give a shit.
and we'd done so well in avoiding a vapid ~both sides~ argument so far, too! there truly is no escaping the Golden Mean

I don't have the time anymore to chastise or correct people dead-set on pretending that 'I can't jack off to this :c' and 'this is part of a trend demeaning to women' are both equally-valid opposites of an argument with no bearing on the real world, so please chastise yourself by methods of your own choosing. thank you.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
author=Housekeeping
To be fair, if they added a couple sizes to her bust, then there'd be an equal but opposite reaction from vocal feminists. In both cases, it's a vocal minority; the vast majority of the planet doesn't give a shit.

This. And let me officially identify as part of that vast majority what doesn't give a shit.

how exactly do you deal with creating characters that defy expectations of how individuals should look and be in our media?

I don't give a shit. Because there is actually no such thing as "expectations of how individuals should look and be" "in our media". There are only individual expectations of how individuals should look and be. And I don't give a shit about that, either.

If I write a gay character, or a black character, or an overweight character, or a disabled character, or whatever, I do so because that is not only intrinsic to their identity but because it also engages with the story I'm trying to tell. Not for the sake of diversity or inclusivity.

do you go out of the way to create well fleshed, genuine characters who belong in one or more marginalised groups? here i'm thinking broadly, but for example, fat people, black people, american indigenous people, arab people, south and southeast asian people, aboriginal people, intersex people, trans people (specifically trans women), women in general, disabled people...

You mean like, for its own sake? Like tokenism? Fuck no. Fuck that shit. Including an array of token "diversity hires" for its own sake is way worse than an all-white cast. Tokenism is actually harmful. And stupid.

is there a concern in creating characters that do not belong in our hegemonic cultural millieu? characters that would, and normally do, infuriate dudebros by being what they would describe as "politically correct", or, you know, people that exist and don't get the spotlight often?

I'm becoming less and less sure what is considered a "dudebro". My girlfriend is just as worried about the fast-spreading cultural cancer of extreme political correctness as I am, for instance, and is obviously neither dude no bro.

Anyway, of course I don't give a fuck about creating characters that would piss off dudebros. I'm an indie dev. I give zero fucks about anyone's expectations. I also am not interested in any kind of "affirmative action" of the spotlight. The spotlight will go on the characters I (and presumably the audience) will find interesting, whatever color and shape and sexual preference they happen to be.

With that said, I am positive that there is no such thing as "characters that do not belong in our hegemonic cultural millieu". Not to belabor this point, but I don't even know what the fuck that is supposed to mean. The phrase "hegemonic cultural milieu" does not scan to me at all, for any meaningful value.

and, if you do, how do you manage the expectation of symbolic violence which, most probably, will follow their announcement and development?

Way too interested in the actual fictional violence contained in my games, and making it and them awesome.

Announcement? Development? Again, no one here--NO ONE HERE--has the fanbase or the interaction pattern with it that these questions assume. By orders of magnitude our fan base is far smaller and more intimate and more reasonable than the sea of frothing, raging nerds of all political stripes that a AAA community manager has to wrangle.

people who are marginalized themselves, i'm particularly interested in your answers

As a marginalized person (with an anxiety disorder!), I don't think you should value my answers more (or less) than anyone else's. That feels yucky. People's ideas have merit or don't, their demographic identity labels/identity politics don't fucking matter.
author=Max McGee
This. And let me officially identify as part of that vast majority what doesn't give a shit.


you are literally a self-identified member of an extremely reactionary conservative minority
*posts in a topic to write multiple paragraphs about how I don't care and neither should anyone else, and by the way political correctness is the ~real~ bigotry just sayin :-)*

you're predictable and thoroughly unconvincing. please leave.
You know I was expecting Max to show up the moment I saw the topic.
TehGuy
Resident Nonexistence
1827
author=mawk
it is my solemn hope that reactionary gamers will eventually boycott themselves into a tiny corner of the gaming community and leave everybody else in relative peace


It won't happen as someone's always going to be set off by something others find trivial. Such is humanity, I guess
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
it is my solemn hope that reactionary gamers will eventually boycott themselves into a tiny corner of the gaming community and leave everybody else in relative peace

I fundamentally agree with this, but I'm thinking of a completely different group of reactionary gamers when I wish for this.

Anyway...

Can someone meaningfully explain to me what is "hegemonic" about this portrayal of the character?



Can someone meaningfully explain to me what is "non-hegemonic" about this portrayal of the character?



SERIOUSLY GUYS...WHAT? I see very, very little difference between these two images. Personally, I see an attractive woman and a...very slightly different portrayal of the same attractive woman. The biggest difference I see is that she is no longer holding a main gauche in her off hand. I am positive that the second image does not depict a trans woman, and I cannot see why anyone would say it did other than the correctly aforementioned people being creepy assholes on the internet. Second image also doesn't look particularly old or ugly or middle-aged to me. The art style is a bit cleaner. And she doesn't have bangs. That's the biggest difference I see.

Bangs = hegemonic, no bangs = non-hegemonic??

WTF?

(Are people that are assholes on the internet sometimes assholes in physical spaces? Sure. But that's usually irrelevant because you will never have to share the same physical space with them. Just the same internets.)
author=Max McGee
I fundamentally agree with this, but I'm thinking of a completely different group of reactionary gamers when I wish for this.

then you don't understand what 'reactionary' actually means!

it isn't 'reacting to something' -- it's specifically reaction to social change with the intention of squashing it.

author=mawk
*posts in a topic to write multiple paragraphs about how I don't care and neither should anyone else, and by the way political correctness is the ~real~ bigotry just sayin :-)*

you're predictable and thoroughly unconvincing. please leave.

add *doesn't understand a term, loudly demands everyone explain it to him* to the bingo card, I guess.
author=mawk
and we'd done so well in avoiding a vapid ~both sides~ argument so far, too! there truly is no escaping the Golden Mean

I don't have the time anymore to chastise or correct people dead-set on pretending that 'I can't jack off to this :c' and 'this is part of a trend demeaning to women' are both equally-valid opposites of an argument with no bearing on the real world, so please chastise yourself by methods of your own choosing. thank you.


I'll retract my opinion with the stipulation that I don't have to have this conversation with you.
I personally think that people are at their most honest when they're fighting (through their choice of actions rather than their words, of course), but I respect your desire not to be fighting all the time, and not to compound the problems in this thread.

e: I guess that last bit was a lie, anyway, as I am currently chastising someone for similar reasons.
As an aside to everyone in this topic, it's totally okay to bow out of a topic or discussion if you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Or, at least have a full disclosure and say 'I'm not too informed on the subject, but here are my subjective thoughts...'

If more people did this than maybe...
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
I think my only disappointment about the new splash, being a League player myself, comes from why they chose Fiora out of the plethora of champions that really need a visual update like Taric or Pantheon. While someone did mention that it adds diversity to an almost universally "sexy" female cast, it's also something no one among the playerbase really asked for.

But to get on topic. I agree with Mawk that even though all of these glorified portrayals of men and women are done for the sake of fantasy, it's not very balanced as far as what men can be and what women can be.

I think it's just a mere reflection of our society (in the USA), where men have historically held more opportunities and power over women, only it's applied to character roles instead of political roles. Men are the badass action heroes, the outspoken nobodies who deal through the trials of life, the chief villains, the mentors, the velociraptor wild animal tamer, the military man, the demon overlord, the valiant vigilante, so on and so forth.

Women are typically the love interest of the main hero, the action girl who also happens to be a hooker, a horror victim or a flippant businesswoman (who also looks attractive)...

It's quite sad, really, especially because, at least in my opinion, women are more likely to be open and go into detail about their lives and interests than men will in conversations. There is so much potential for depth that I think Hollywood is ignoring for the sake of making big bucks.
yeah, you've hit upon the entire reason this is important; media portrayals both reflect and influence the views of the society that produces them. I don't think that progressive games are going to singlehandedly change the world, of course, but it's important to respect the consequences of our actions and do the best we can.
I doubt anyone really understands the point of this topic. Probably because the point is some tumblr bullshit that is impossible to understand, plus the point can also be changed depending on a number of factors and/or the mood of the person that started it.
author=SnowOwl
I doubt anyone really understands the point of this topic. Probably because the point is some tumblr bullshit that is impossible to understand, plus the point can also be changed depending on a number of factors and/or the mood of the person that started it.


get out of here dude
media analysis, and also specifically feminist criticism, predate tumblr by centuries but hey whatever dude