OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

author=harmonic
I even used the word as though I was channeling the critics of her previous design. Context matters.

Exactly, you used it the same way that they used it - as an insult. Context does matter, and you used it in the same context as a total asshole would. You don't call strangers "shitheads" and then wonder why they don't want to be friends with you. If that's "social ostracization", I mean... yea.

Please, stick to your guns if you want. I'm at least glad you've accepted the fact that when you treat people like shit, they will treat you like shit back.

author=harmonic

author=slash
You have the right to say whatever you want, and no one's gonna take it away from you - but it reveals a lot about you when you insist on being insulting just because you can, and none of it's good.

You can say that people should just put up with insulting bullshit and stop complaining, but I wouldn't count on it. If you want people to turn the other cheek for you just because you're apathetic, well...

I didn't and wouldn't insult someone. You decided to pass judgment on my choice of words, none of which were directed at anyone. Also, no, I never said anything about "expecting people to turn the other cheek". What I said is that I really don't give a flying f if they do or not.

I even used the word as though I was channeling the critics of her previous design. Context matters.

This is exactly what I mean by sensitivity gestapo. You have determined what words I can and cannot say and threaten me with social ostracization. And your acceptable words will probably change with each passing week as more and more words change from innocent generic descriptor into suddenly a horrible bigoted insult, as determined by the "victim du jour".

I don't blame you because you're a Bill O'Reilly Jr. (Jr.) like the rest of them, albeit they claim to be of the left. Politics and all that.

author=harmonic

author=slash
when you treat people like shit

Jeeze louise. Mountain / Molehill.

So you got your 'gotcha' points in for the day by cherry-picking one word out of a long post, and totally derailing the subject of the thread. God bless ya. I admit it, I hadn't studied up on the latest edition of Newspeak™. I repent.

Let it go, dude.


I do agree that we should stop derailing the thread, so let's go back to it.


Why are LoL players so frickin' mad that a character is "less attractive" than before? I understand having fantasies about characters, but damn, LoL has, what, 100+ characters? How many of 'em are sexy women? Does every second of an action game, in addition to being an action game, have to be designed to make people horny, too? Mario's a fun as hell game, and he's dumpy and goofy looking and yet still a fantastic and fun character. Is it so crazy that we could have like, a short and round cartoony woman character, and still have the game be fun?

bahleted

author=Sated

author=slash
"Tranny" is a slur, don't use it if you want people to take you seriously or if you don't want to come off like an idiot and an asshole.

"Idiot" and "asshole" are slurs, don't use them if you want people to take you seriously or if you don't want to come off like an idiot and an arsehole.

Show

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

man I'm just gonna take a hot sec to talk about a thing I'm sure already came up in the past 20 pages, because this comes up every goddamned time people start complaining about "why can't I use that word" in one fashion or another

There's a difference between slurs and insults, and that difference is a very important one. Insults are rude. Idiot and asshole are insults.

Slurs are used to reinforce violence. here let me like

reinforce

not necessarily cause. Like, just to be clear on that.

If you murder someone for being an "idiot" or an "asshole", I'm going to hazard a guess people won't really support that. Chances are, your mental health will be called into question or it will be regarded as an oddity to murder someone over something so trivial.

If you murder someone for being a "tranny", while all of the above might still happen, there will be large amounts of people who view this murder as not only justified, but understandable, or even necessary. I don't know how deep you wanna go into the murder of trans folks (especially trans women who ain't white), but that's a thing that happens. It's terrifying.

Why do I jump to the extreme end of murder? Because even though it's a fairly extreme example of "violence", you don't murder people out of the blue. The circumstances that create those situations are built out of smaller blocks of violence, and that's what I mean when I say slurs reinforce violence. No, the fact someone said a slur is not the source of this violence. But if they're using that word to describe anyone, even in a joking manner, then it comes with baggage attached. At the very least, they think it's harmless and in good fun when for many people, it comes with the threat of immediate violence, or reminders of past violence.

Yes it's rude, but it goes beyond that.

Slurs come with a history attached. Treating them like any other words erases that history, and I think it's a bad idea to plug your ears and act like history + context don't matter.

Casually throwing them around creates an environment where, in the case of calling someone a "tranny", insulting someone based on their gender is A-okay. I think that's a shit-tier environment to be in. It's not somewhere I want to live, work, or mak gam in. Restricting usage of this type of language doesn't actually make people less transphobic or anything. If people wanna be shitlords about it, come hell or high water they will find a way.

Restricting the use of slurs helps make an environment where trans folks can feel more at ease in. It demonstrates that the people responsible for the space we're participating in at the very least will not allow people to use language with no other purpose than reinforcing violence. (or justifying/excusing violence, I guess, but I wrap that up under the heading of "reinforcing" because it goes back to supporting the idea, in this case, that violence against trans folks is A-okay)

Like, seriously, why else is someone using a slur? since "tranny" is the example here, like...

• As a joke, it relies on the idea that trans people are gross, undesirable, or unnatural in some way.

• As an insult, it's relying on the same ideas as a above, but with the added layer of "I think this describes you, personally" which yeah, is rude but like, idk, do I gotta write fucks of paragraphs about why you shouldn't try and shred someone's sense of self-worth with dehumanizing language like slurs?

• As a serious description of someone, you get all of the above in addition to someone who is either totally clueless as to the history of that word, or someone who knows and doesn't care. It doesn't matter to them that this word is attached to nothing but dehumanization and violence. That kind of callousness is something I want there to be less of.

• As part of a threating statement, you get...all of the above, plus the potential for direct, physical harm.

It's less about specific words and more what's going on behind it. Sure, in the case of this lol character, not everyone is calling her slurs. But even "looks like a man" as an insulting description goes back to...the same ideas about trans folks being gross and bad and all that bullshit!

And since I said "dehumanization" in addition to violence in that list, even tho I keep going on about how "slurs are used to reinforce violence".... You know how violence against specific groups of people becomes widespread? Part of it includes when that group is seen as less than human, which happens when dehumanizing words (like slurs) are created and used in reference to them. So...slurs reinforce violence.

It's also not just about the feelings of everyone involved. I think the feelings of other people matter! What a thought! So yeah, for me if someone is uncomfortable with the language I use, for me it's generally not a huge issue to use something else. Not everyone is like that, whatever.

When you use slurs, you are reinforcing violence. There are plenty of other words you can use that don't do this, especially if you just want to insult someone or be rude or w/e. You don't gotta throw other groups of people under the bus to do so.

When someone lobs a slur my way, sure, I feel offended. I don't think there's any shame in being upset by language that reinforces violence against people like me. But depending on the context, this language is probably being used to silence me, make me afraid, and...wait for it... works to reinforce violence.

If you wanna act like you're above Irrational Human Emotions, I don't give a shit. Go ahead. From the outside it might look like "words are just words and u give them the power" but for a lot of people it's a very personal, close-to-home matter. Telling them to suck it up is incredibly callous and doesn't do anything good.

Even if some scientist discovered the Magical Cure For Offense, that does nothing for the way that slurs reinforce violence, because one of the ways they do that is by relying on the idea that "X group of people is worthless and gross and bad". This idea is the root of pretty much all violence against certain groups, trans folks included. Slurs do not reinforce violence because people get offended by them.

I mean I guess I could have also just written "wow if you replace some of the ingredients with the word POISON in a cookbook it sure seems sinister, doesn't it??? Almost like...words have meanings! And context matters!" but I bet someone already made that comparison.

Sigh.

This generation of special snowflakes who enthusiastically support the thought police should remember something.

Be careful what weapons you create, because it can later be used against you. You're going to miss the latest edition of Newspeak™ and unwittingly use a word that, as of 5 hours ago, is now considered taboo.

It is much, much easier for a society to learn how to discern between something that matters and doesn't matter. I'm a redhead. I could try to make a case that calling me "ginger" is some sort of trigger warning and I prefer to be called an Auburn-American. But I instead, in the hundreds of times I've been called that (sometimes with an obvious rude tone) chosen to shrug it off... because it just doesn't matter. Life is too short to get offended by everything.

In short, it is impossible to be sheltered from every single... how do you say... ah yes. "Micro-transgression" or whatever. It IS possible to take ownership of your life and take control of your emotions and reactions. Don't be vulnerable, be too stronk to be hurt by words.

Careful, don't get too stronk, you'll then be an honorary member of the oppressor class like me. Much checking of your privileges will be asked of you.

author=PentagonBuddy
yeah these kinds of responses are why I focus so much on violence, as unpleasant as that is. Also ginger is not a slur, and the oppression irish & catholic folks once faced in america is no longer a widespread social issue. (which is usually why people bring up ginger as if it's still a slur)

I'll just leave these here:

Abuse of redheads
Mocking of redheads
Ginger hate crimes
Refused service for being a redhead
"Kick a ginger day" taken literally

Want more?

The abuse and violence doesn't happen because of the word "ginger." These bags of shit didn't wake up in the morning and go "You know what, ginger is a funny word. Therefore, I now hate redheads and am going to beat one up."

The word didn't beat up gingers. The people did.

Nice reframe there.

I think his point was to establish that he isn't asking for any special rights just because he's ginger. That's at the least been my issue with this whole debacle, I don't mind if people don't want to be called sudden things, in most cases I'll adhere because contrary to how much I curse, I'm actually a pretty tolerant human being.

It's the narcissistic elitism and entitled pleas for mercy even when the peons themselves are being just as rude that annoys me. Corfaisus' example earlier in this thread which I jumped on is a perfect example.

I understand where you're coming from Penta, and you're probably the most level-headed I've seen speak on the topic. I'm glad you did bring up the difference between a slur and a label.

Slurs are a thing I am pretty careful about, because I know they were used for hate mongering. Insults are fine in my book, I get them on a daily basis, and give them on a daily basis, in jest or not.

What me and fellows like Max, Harmonic and others are concerned about is that Slurs will become in-distinguished from insults and that we will no longer be able to say 'idiot' or stuff like that. That is the goal of zealous Social Justice Warriors, and it's horrible.

I have said the f word (the other f'word not, fuck, come on... I use that all the time!) once here and I got a warn for it, and even though it was in jest, I understood why I had action taken on me and humbly accepted it.

If I said idiot and I got warned for it I don't think I'd be so willing to accept it, hell, who am I kidding, I'd start rallying people to say all the most insulting non-slur things they can just to prove a point. The perfect world of the social justice warriors is one where they themselves won't be happy. Humans have a baseline need to be dicks, that's what gets us anywhere.

You don't need slurs to be a dick, but you do need insults, imagine a world without insults?

Yeah, pretty boring, huh? And impossible.