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TO BUILD A "COMMERCIAL GAME TEAM" VS A "FREE GAME TEAM"
Posts
Illy
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CloseSo with the end of my semester here, I have about a month worth of free time and I was considering the concept behind what it takes to build a Free Game team.
I'm sure a lot of us have had this problem before. You want to design a game with custom graphics, music, and sounds - but find yourself at the wrong end of the artistic stick. A lot of us have no skill in developing artwork or music for games, so we're forced to default on the skills of others in order to truly build something unique. In the case of the commercial game, it's entirely possible that you and the people working with you will make back the money you put into the game.
But what of the individuals who want to release a game that's free to the public with no profit of their own? This is where the difficulty of being a game designer with no inherent artistic or musical talent rears its ugly head. I understand that artists and musicians work hard on their creations and deserve to be credited for their work, but that all comes at the cost of the individual making the game and, to that end, simply costs them money that they will never be able to be credited for for their free release.
Now there's the obvious solution. "Simply get together with your artistic friends and build a game together!" This is a perfectly viable option, and the one I see most individuals shoot for. However, some of us aren't particularly good at making friends, and even so a lot of artists and musicians have a lot on their plate already. Another conundrum seems to be the minority that is artists and musicians; Does it make you a terrible person to try to make friends with someone in order to get the possible access to their skills you want to make a great game together? It seems like the skill of creating games via RPGMaker or whatever engine you want is exceedingly easier to master than being a great artist or musician, so the majority of them already have this skill at their disposal and haven't the need for an extra hand to utilize the program necessary to make the game with.
I know it doesn't seem like there's a lot of options other than to suck it up and fork out the dough to hire skilled artists and musicians, even for a free game, but I just felt like spreading this to you all as one of those worried individuals who doesn't want to spend the rest of his years using ripped resources in a poorly executed manner. (I'm not the greatest mapper out there) I come for advice or suggestions more than anything else!
I'm sure a lot of us have had this problem before. You want to design a game with custom graphics, music, and sounds - but find yourself at the wrong end of the artistic stick. A lot of us have no skill in developing artwork or music for games, so we're forced to default on the skills of others in order to truly build something unique. In the case of the commercial game, it's entirely possible that you and the people working with you will make back the money you put into the game.
But what of the individuals who want to release a game that's free to the public with no profit of their own? This is where the difficulty of being a game designer with no inherent artistic or musical talent rears its ugly head. I understand that artists and musicians work hard on their creations and deserve to be credited for their work, but that all comes at the cost of the individual making the game and, to that end, simply costs them money that they will never be able to be credited for for their free release.
Now there's the obvious solution. "Simply get together with your artistic friends and build a game together!" This is a perfectly viable option, and the one I see most individuals shoot for. However, some of us aren't particularly good at making friends, and even so a lot of artists and musicians have a lot on their plate already. Another conundrum seems to be the minority that is artists and musicians; Does it make you a terrible person to try to make friends with someone in order to get the possible access to their skills you want to make a great game together? It seems like the skill of creating games via RPGMaker or whatever engine you want is exceedingly easier to master than being a great artist or musician, so the majority of them already have this skill at their disposal and haven't the need for an extra hand to utilize the program necessary to make the game with.
I know it doesn't seem like there's a lot of options other than to suck it up and fork out the dough to hire skilled artists and musicians, even for a free game, but I just felt like spreading this to you all as one of those worried individuals who doesn't want to spend the rest of his years using ripped resources in a poorly executed manner. (I'm not the greatest mapper out there) I come for advice or suggestions more than anything else!
Dyhalto
7536
The way I see it is; every hobby or other recreational activity out there costs money. If you like Lego, you need to spend money to buy Lego. If you want a cottage by the lake, you need to buy it and then pay property tax, bills, etc.
RM is nice because anybody can get startedabsolutely mostly for free and go a long way before any money needs to be spent. But that doesn't mean we have to live in this self-created perception of our games having to either be totally free or totally for-profit. A fisherman's equipment costs hundreds, so why can't we shell out a few hundred to commission an artist? A vacation to the Bahamas costs thousands, so why can't we get a music composer to fill an OST?
Right now I'm dallying with ripped resources and whatnot, but I intend to move into more ambitious projects that require $$$. I think the bigger complaint then will be dealing with flakes, like artists who bail after only fulfilling half their obligation, or composers who have one or two good songs for every pile of blech.
RM is nice because anybody can get started
Right now I'm dallying with ripped resources and whatnot, but I intend to move into more ambitious projects that require $$$. I think the bigger complaint then will be dealing with flakes, like artists who bail after only fulfilling half their obligation, or composers who have one or two good songs for every pile of blech.
I tend to look at it like Dyhalto; I don't mind spending some money to work with people I like and get the kind of assets I want for a game.
That said, I totally do think the team idea can work, but I think in that situation, it's more of a compromise to come up with a vision for a game that everyone on the team can enjoy making, since they're putting in the work for free.
I think it also helps a lot if you've shown you can finish projects, as I see you have a few complete games under your belt, which would give me more confidence if I was a prospective teammate looking to work with you. I always ask people seeking teams what they have completed before, and it's usually either nothing or "I totally have finished stuff! ...No, I'm not going to provide you to a link of said stuff."
That said, I totally do think the team idea can work, but I think in that situation, it's more of a compromise to come up with a vision for a game that everyone on the team can enjoy making, since they're putting in the work for free.
I think it also helps a lot if you've shown you can finish projects, as I see you have a few complete games under your belt, which would give me more confidence if I was a prospective teammate looking to work with you. I always ask people seeking teams what they have completed before, and it's usually either nothing or "I totally have finished stuff! ...No, I'm not going to provide you to a link of said stuff."
To be fair, the only time I've worked with others on games are from the McBacon Jam events and this game. Perhaps, when McBacon Jam #3 comes around, you might try joining that, and just see how it goes?
*Edit: I feel like the McBacon Jams serve as a good "test the waters" kind of thing in regards to working with others. Like, maybe you want to work with somebody, and you team up, but then find that you're style of gammak is incompatible. On the other hand, maybe you team up with a complete stranger, and you work together so well, it might as well be called magic.
*Edit: I feel like the McBacon Jams serve as a good "test the waters" kind of thing in regards to working with others. Like, maybe you want to work with somebody, and you team up, but then find that you're style of gammak is incompatible. On the other hand, maybe you team up with a complete stranger, and you work together so well, it might as well be called magic.
I do agree with everything that's been said so far. I was in the McJam 1, where I made friends like Zeigfried, Liberty, and Charblar. I was just so swamped with college work I couldn't provide worthy assistance to the project short of one map and some demo testing.
As far as finished works go, yes I have some event projects completed - Ruby Radiance of which I'm most proud of. I've really been meaning to turn an old tabletop campaign story I've ran several times now into a project, I'm just trying to find that perfect team to make it a perfect game.
As far as finished works go, yes I have some event projects completed - Ruby Radiance of which I'm most proud of. I've really been meaning to turn an old tabletop campaign story I've ran several times now into a project, I'm just trying to find that perfect team to make it a perfect game.
Yeah, McBacon Jam 2 was my first, and I really lucked out. Archeia_Nessiah and charblar were and still are both a joy to work with. Pizza was fun to work with too, but I rather got the impression he doesn't particularly like working in teams. For a free game, chemistry is important.
For a commercial game: "commercial" is the key word, here. At this point, your team "mates" are your employees. You're talking about money with a such a venture. You should have a business attitude about it. Everybody's time is worth something, but there are deadlines to set and goals to reach.
In a free team game, everyone has a vision, and they all merge to become a potentially great game. In a commercial game, you have a vision, and the rest of team is tasked with assembling it. It's hard being a good a manager. You could just sit back and handle finances and tell everyone what you want, but that leads to low morale Taking part in the creation process will put everyone on the same page, and if you care about the final product, odds are, the team will care, too.
For a commercial game: "commercial" is the key word, here. At this point, your team "mates" are your employees. You're talking about money with a such a venture. You should have a business attitude about it. Everybody's time is worth something, but there are deadlines to set and goals to reach.
In a free team game, everyone has a vision, and they all merge to become a potentially great game. In a commercial game, you have a vision, and the rest of team is tasked with assembling it. It's hard being a good a manager. You could just sit back and handle finances and tell everyone what you want, but that leads to low morale Taking part in the creation process will put everyone on the same page, and if you care about the final product, odds are, the team will care, too.
Even in a commercial game, the visions still becomes shared. It's inevitable. The difference is that the lead designer has more incentive to assert their views.
Of course he does! I learned that back during the MOG event!
author=kentonaauthor=Cecil_BeoulveMost certainly!
I've always wanted to learn how to digitally create music, but I just don't know what program to use that would be beginner friendly. I've half a mind to use Mario Paint Composer - wait, would that work?
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4818/media/817/
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4818/media/1964/
Secret of Battle (battle music - shamelessly "inspired" by Secret of Mana)
This is the only way I know how to make music. But it's not efficient, nor does it result in good music, so I wouldn't recommend it. It is really easy to do, though...
I could write a tutorial I guess, but like I said, I wouldn't recommend it as a serious way to develop music.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Cecil_Beoulve
Now there's the obvious solution. "Simply get together with your artistic friends and build a game together!" This is a perfectly viable option, and the one I see most individuals shoot for. However, some of us aren't particularly good at making friends,
Git gud.
Another conundrum seems to be the minority that is artists and musicians; Does it make you a terrible person to try to make friends with someone in order to get the possible access to their skills you want to make a great game together?
Also we can tell when you're just trying to get us to art for free. Much like how girls can tell when guys are just after the poontang :V
You have two other options:
A) There exist kind people who create free to use assets. Find them!
2) Develop the skills yourself! It may not look/sound super awesome, but it's free and it'll work.
You can make contacts without having to try and make friends to use them. Maybe offer swapsies of a sort? You know how to do things that others might not be able to or want to have to do, so that's always a possibility.
I admired Ocean's skills as a pixel artist long before he and I became friends, and when we first had proper contact it was through a mutual friend to help her with a game and to just hang out because she thought we were both cool. Now we're friends. I would ask for his help if I needed it, and the offer is the same for him - if he needs help with someone he knows he can ask me for it.
Why not jump on slack or irc and just shoot the shit with cool people and give opinions and ask opinions and just make contacts and friendships and just be cool, yo.
There's also offering money - that usually works, if you actually contact people one on one (not make a thread asking for everyone to make your game for you - actually investigate styles and check out if they have a set price and just get your shit together and save up for what you need).
I admired Ocean's skills as a pixel artist long before he and I became friends, and when we first had proper contact it was through a mutual friend to help her with a game and to just hang out because she thought we were both cool. Now we're friends. I would ask for his help if I needed it, and the offer is the same for him - if he needs help with someone he knows he can ask me for it.
Why not jump on slack or irc and just shoot the shit with cool people and give opinions and ask opinions and just make contacts and friendships and just be cool, yo.
There's also offering money - that usually works, if you actually contact people one on one (not make a thread asking for everyone to make your game for you - actually investigate styles and check out if they have a set price and just get your shit together and save up for what you need).
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Liberty
There's also offering money - that usually works, if you actually contact people one on one (not make a thread asking for everyone to make your game for you - actually investigate styles and check out if they have a set price and just get your shit together and save up for what you need).
Yeah, make sure to pay attention to the bolded part, because I guarantee you, you will probably vastly underestimate how much an artist's work is worth.
Yup - people think that art should be cheap. No. Art is something that people have slaved away a lot of their time to get good at so if an artist says 'this is my price' you have two options:
- accept it and pay
- look elsewhere
- accept it and pay
- look elsewhere
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Well, you DO have the option of a counteroffer, but it's unusual that an artist will accept it. I've taken a lower fee here and there for a project I believe in. (Granted, those are usually charity type things.)
Dyhalto
7536
Just to throw it out there for my own curiosity (and maybe a few others too), what kind of fees do you charge, Sooz?
Say I wanted ten different character busts with the all the appropriate facial expressions. What would be your quote?
Or say I just wanted one title screen?
Say I wanted ten different character busts with the all the appropriate facial expressions. What would be your quote?
Or say I just wanted one title screen?
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Dyhalto
Just to throw it out there for my own curiosity (and maybe a few others too), what kind of fees do you charge, Sooz?
Say I wanted ten different character busts with the all the appropriate facial expressions. What would be your quote?
Or say I just wanted one title screen?
(All amounts are in USD)
A fair amount would depend on complexity. My fee for eight-expression facesets with minimal pose variation is about $80; Something larger or with pose variation would be a bit higher.
As for title screens, that mainly depends on how much detail someone wants. For illustration, here's about what I'd charge for the following:
Virtual Grappi: Maybe like $10-20; pixels take a while, but the Grappi screen was exceedingly simple
Chase for Divinity: About $50, since it was just the figure and uni did everything else
Remnants of Isolation: Leaving aside the window skin, probably around $80-100 for complexity plus logo design.
These are on the low side for artists, and assume that I retain rights to reuse and display stuff. If you wanted sole rights to them, that'd add to the price.
