WHY AREN'T YOU FUCKERS IN IRC?

Posts

Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
Yo BadLuck I'll touch on your points on greater detail later, but it's worth pointing out that we used to have a 100% automatic authorisation system for Slack until a couple spammers started wreaking havoc. Because they were always able to sign up I had to take the system down.

Also I wouldn't say there are few people using Slack. Apart from a couple of hours on the weekend there appears to be activity 24/7 - that was never the case with IRC.
Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
2236
author=Yellow Magic
Apart from a couple of hours on the weekend there appears to be activity 24/7 - that was never the case with IRC.

There is even activity right now! Haha!
(Also sometimes at like 6 or 7am English Time it's fairly quiet...)
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=BadLuck
So, reading the arguments against Slack, all I'm getting is "authorization sucks" (and that's an absolutely huge hurdle) and "it does more than is needed" which is... I mean, unless there's some huge cost to that that I'm not seeing, like it's a memory hog or something, that is just not a valid issue. If Slack does more than IRC with no noticeable cost, then Slack is better, period. And that's not even taking into consideration the vastly superior client.

Do Slack's "unfit" features actually cause a problem that I haven't seen explicitly stated here? If not, this is a non-issue.

Now, addressing the "authorization" issue... that's a big one. While it takes a matter of minutes to register, those few minutes plus the need to download a client are likely the reason so few people use it.

Is there not some way to automate this process? Can a bot not automatically verify the people signing up, and then immediately link you to slack's browser client, and the admins trim the fat afterwards? It's not like you're going to see an influx of hundreds of people by doing this.

If that's not possible, I could make an argument in favor of IRC...

The way it's done on RMN is absolutely archaic. There is no good reason why first-time IRC users should have to download a client. If you'd like to use a client, by all means do so. But being expected to download and set up a client in order to chat with people is going to be far too much time and effort for someone with a spur of the moment thought that, hey, chatting might be cool. "Oh, I have to download a client? Eh, forget it then."

The response to that can't be "Well, if that's too much time/work, fuck you then." Because that's the argument against Slack's authorization too.

Why we're not using this...

https://kiwiirc.com/

... or something like it is beyond me. I've used this for RMN IRC before. Incidentally, I stopped idling there because the community was beyond dead.

https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.snoonet.org/reddit/?nick=YourNickHere

You click the link, you put in your name, you're in chat in a matter of seconds. Is kiwi a perfect client? No. But it'll get people in the community, and that's the goal. Ideally, what I just described is what should happen with Slack with an automated authorization process. If that's not possible, IRC is clearly better, but for only that reason.

My proposal: Change the "chat on IRC" link to either Kiwi or something like it, where you need only to enter your username, encourage those currently idling there to talk, and then make a big event to get people to come to the chatroom.

FIND SOME WAY TO AUTOMATE THIS FOR SLACK IF POSSIBLE AND ABANDON IRC ENTIRELY. If that can't be automated, Slack can never be the main way for RMN users to chat.

I don't think it's a feature thing of Slack vs. IRC. There's IRC stuff available that works almost just like Slack does.

The things you described are what I meant earlier by "friction". Both have a very specific process you have to follow or they won't work. Having Slack be on auto-invite seems a hell of a lot more dangerous, just due to the way Slack expects users to operate.

As someone mentioned earlier, though, IRC is not "the new hotness" and has stagnated for a decade. I don't see Slack and IRC as equivalents, but there has been a lot of money put into Slack that IRC has never dreamed of. You will naturally get a more polished product out of that.

The site needs embedded chat. Full stop.
@Yellow Magic

Were bots doing this? If so, a captcha system should be sufficient. If not, are IP bans not a way to solve this? Were the people spamming you determined enough to get around IP blocking as well? I realize that's easy enough to do, but to have someone doing it by hand to avoid captcha as well as getting around IP bans seems like it'd still fix a lot of this.

And there's always the option of adding more admins.

As for the activity levels, all I can say is that I've participated in several IRC and Slack communities over the years and RMN's has easily been one of the least active. Either there's just not that much interest in it, or the authorization system is the problem. A totally understandable position, mind you, and not one I'm necessarily criticizing you for. But if you want to grow a chat community (which I think would be awesome, and is absolutely something you guys should do) the authorization system is a huge roadblock.
Double posting since me and WIP posted at the same time.

@WIP

"Having Slack be on auto-invite seems a hell of a lot more dangerous, just due to the way Slack expects users to operate."

Moreso than IRC allowing anyone to join? I'm not sure what the difference is if RMN Slack admins authorize pretty much anyone anyway. There's the spam issue that was talked about, but there are certainly other ways around that (like captcha as previously mentioned, or making you register an email address, but still automatically accept).


What's the danger with Slack that isn't present with IRC?

"The site needs embedded chat. Full stop."

That we agree on.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
author=BadLuck
@Yellow Magic
Were bots doing this? If so, a captcha system should be sufficient. If not, are IP bans not a way to solve this? Were the people spamming you determined enough to get around IP blocking as well? I realize that's easy enough to do, but to have someone doing it by hand to avoid captcha as well as getting around IP bans seems like it'd still fix a lot of this.

No, it was real people (or some seriously advanced AI). Slack doesn't support IP bans, but I guess even those wouldn't really be a complete fix as many ISPs offer dynamic IPs, and even static IP bans are easy enough to get around.

And there's always the option of adding more admins.

We already (at least in theory) have a follow-the-sun team of admins.

As for the activity levels, all I can say is that I've participated in several IRC and Slack communities over the years and RMN's has easily been one of the least active. Either there's just not that much interest in it, or the authorization system is the problem. A totally understandable position, mind you, and not one I'm necessarily criticizing you for. But if you want to grow a chat community (which I think would be awesome, and is absolutely something you guys should do) the authorization system is a huge roadblock.

Honestly, at this point I think it's just a question of interest (end of the day, how many people are interested in RPG Maker development?). I developed a means of speeding up the authorisation process through which members are usually onboarded within minutes of signing up.
"I developed a means of speeding up the authorisation process through which members are usually onboarded within minutes of signing up."

Honestly? The issue is having to click more than twice. If you need to go back to your email to get in, you're going to lose like 90% of the people that were interested.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
Honestly, in 90% of cases I'd agree that the multiple clicks are an issue - unfortunately there's no real way around that (that isn't auto-authorisation anyway).

One could make the assumption that the average RMNer has a high enough attention span to spare that many clicks, but you never know. Jury's out on that one, and there's a lot to think about.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
Sorry to double post, but did you guys know that you can connect to the RMN Slack group over IRC?

Check this out. (Admittedly, there are a few caveats - such as having to fill in user/pass details)
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=BadLuck
Double posting since me and WIP posted at the same time.

@WIP

"Having Slack be on auto-invite seems a hell of a lot more dangerous, just due to the way Slack expects users to operate."

Moreso than IRC allowing anyone to join? I'm not sure what the difference is if RMN Slack admins authorize pretty much anyone anyway. There's the spam issue that was talked about, but there are certainly other ways around that (like captcha as previously mentioned, or making you register an email address, but still automatically accept).


What's the danger with Slack that isn't present with IRC?

Slack comes with more personally identifiable information than IRC. I shouldn't have to use dummy email accounts for Slack purposes.

If there was a way to tie real-time chat together with RMN's existing user database, you'd get immediate and powerful benefits.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
author=WIP
If there was a way to tie real-time chat together with RMN's existing user database, you'd get immediate and powerful benefits.

Urge to develop custom chat app rising...
Easier and faster for me to have Slack load up automatically on start-up. No mess, no fuss. It just logs me straight in and I don't have to remember anything at all. :shrug:

Besides, I like it better, function-wise. Having images and videos show up in the chat without having to open a browser to look at, having custom emiticons and phrases... much more fun and dynamic. IRC is a bit bland and clunky to me, I'm afraid.

Also, hate to have to say it, but it's been pretty toxic in the past and I've had a few times where assholes were just being fucks for no reason. Sure, there's a different kind of asshole on Slack, but I like most of the people there and having alternate channels to ignore them in and talk to just your friends is neat, whilst still being able to see when said chucklfucks finally leave.

That said, yeah, it has it's issues, but hey, what doesn't?


...that's why I don't use IRC.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
I don't have any stakes on this, but I remember meeting a lot of untechnical people using IRC. These were guys who couldn't copy files or print without help. If they could use it, anyone can.

The registration for Slack is very simple, *clicky clicky*, email confirmation and it's done.

It doesn't make much sense for me to be discussing about how to get people who are too lazy to either learn IRC or get through the authorization process of Slack into the RMN chat community :P
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=Yellow Magic
author=WIP
If there was a way to tie real-time chat together with RMN's existing user database, you'd get immediate and powerful benefits.
Urge to develop custom chat app rising...
Wouldn't be crazy. As I stated earlier in the thread, I wrote out a Node prototype piggybacking off IRC quite easily. That's the same realm as what Twitch did/does. You use IRC as the tech to handle the actual chat implementation.

author=Liberty
Easier and faster for me to have Slack load up automatically on start-up. No mess, no fuss. It just logs me straight in and I don't have to remember anything at all. :shrug:
Just about every IRC client can do all of that. -_-
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
author=WIP
Wouldn't be crazy. As I stated earlier in the thread, I wrote out a Node prototype piggybacking off IRC quite easily. That's the same realm as what Twitch did/does. You use IRC as the tech to handle the actual chat implementation.

Node! Too sick. Did you use socket.io? If you ever feel like sharing your source code I'd love to have a look.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
I'm not really convinced the website itself would benefit from a constant chat stream ala FB or Twitch.
I used mIRC. It didn't do that. :shrug:
Cap_H
DIGITAL IDENTITY CRISIS
6625
author=Kloe
author=Yellow Magic
Apart from a couple of hours on the weekend there appears to be activity 24/7 - that was never the case with IRC.
There is even activity right now! Haha!
(Also sometimes at like 6 or 7am English Time it's fairly quiet...)


I usually log in right after all discussion ends (yeah its an Endlish evening).

IRC would win me over if there were an RMN on site client or RMN dedicated app. All functionality I ever use is text writing, image posting abd link share.
Agreed. Integrated chat on the site would totally nab me as a willing participant.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
I'd love an RMN chat feature.