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NeverSilent
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Closeauthor=kentonaI mean, if that's an outlook you're willing to adopt, you do you. But I can safely say I don't like that mindset. And being aware of certain pitfalls of the human mind is the best starting point for making a conscious effort to avoid them, so now I will try even harder to never let this happen to me.
It's not really about broadening my horizons. It's about legitimately games grow more boring as you get older
author=kentonaYep, I agree. If those are your tastes and you can't or don't want to question them, ever, I can only repeat myself: Don't play Undertale. You're not going to enjoy it.
(To close off this Undertale sidebar, I am reasonably certain that I will not enjoy it for a few reasons: ... )
Particularly the meta aspect and the whole clean slate part you mentioned are what I find awesome, as it makes me feel the game takes me - the person behind the screen - seriously, and makes my choices feel truly meaningful. You find it limiting and immersion-breaking. I might disagree with your points, but they are fair points nonetheless.
(Oh, and as a silly aside: Your angry remarks about it actually made me curious enough that I checked out Homestuck for myself. And, well... It's really freaking weird, often to the point of being completely ridiculous, sometimes even totally pointless and random... But still, I actually think it's not half bad. I'll probably keep reading it for a while and see where it goes. So, uh, thanks, I guess? What irony...)
author=kentonaSee, this I can actually understand to a certain degree. I also enjoy coming up with clever strategies and optimising them. It's probably part of why I like real-time strategy games a lot, too. The difference seems to be that I don't care for the numbers/stats part of it. The whole min-maxing on a mathematical level really doesn't feel interesting or rewarding to me.
I love min/maxing stats and parties and classes in RPGs. Basically, the "preparation" side of RPGs.
Basically, picture two different RPGs. In one, you have access to a whole bunch of different equipment that alters your characters' stats, so you can assign them their roles the way you want. In the other, equipment provides no stat bonuses at all, but instead each piece in some way modifies the workings or effects of your characters' abilities. I would choose the second game over the first any day, because finding powerful combos and building strategies around them is much more fun to me than juggling numbers.
Similarly, I've found I like having a fixed party with clearly assigned and limited powers that can however be developed and twisted into many different directions for different playstyles. It's fun having to work with what you have within a relatively clearly defined system, which however encourages you to push it to the very limits. On the other hand, huge open systems that offer lots of classes and such often seem to result in a few less than optimal outcomes: the options you get either all play kind of same-y and the choices you make as the player become devoid of any sense of meaning or depth; or they produce a certain meta-approach that makes one setup objectively better and thus the only valid choice; or they allow for such a huge variety in widely different abilities and playstyles that trying to understand what options you even have is such a monumental task that it becomes boring or frustrating.
Maybe it's just me though.
And bicfarmer has a good point. There are so many games available right here on RMN that were made by individuals who either adapted or consciously chose not to incorporate elements of the games we've come to know and like or dislike. Just looking at the material we find here can already teach us a lot about games and the thoughts behind them. Plus, not only is it easy to help fellow RMNers and make them happy by just leaving some constructive feedback. But since most games here are free you won't even have to get upset over losing money if you try to get out of your comfort zone or happened to come across something you didn't enjoy.
eplipswich
2728
author=NeverSilentauthor=kentonaI mean, if that's an outlook you're willing to adopt, you do you. But I can safely say I don't like that mindset. And being aware of certain pitfalls of the human mind is the best starting point for making a conscious effort to avoid them, so now I will try even harder to never let this happen to me.
It's not really about broadening my horizons. It's about legitimately games grow more boring as you get older
Um, this only applies if you're serious about becoming a game developer/playing games. In the case of kentona, he isn't actually serious about being a game developer. He just develops/plays games as a hobby.
The thing is, there are a lot more things that have high priority in life than games. I don't know if you're married, but if not, once you're in that shoes like kentona, you're going to think otherwise and have other priorities in life that far supersede games.
I am not advocating that mindset, just pointing out it is a reality that you ought to acknowledge about being human. Because it will happen to you
also, I'd pick the first option.
also, I'd pick the first option.
author=eplipswichSure. But first off, you're wrong about kentona. As far as I know, he is currently planning on building and releasing an improved commercial version of Hero's Realm. So if that signifies not being serious about being a game developer to you, I don't know how to respond to that.
Um, this only applies if you're serious about becoming a game developer/playing games. In the case of kentona, he isn't actually serious about being a game developer. He just develops/plays games as a hobby.
The thing is, there are a lot more things that have high priority in life than games. I don't know if you're married or whatnot, but once you're in that shoes like kentona, you'll going to think otherwise and have other priorities in life that supersede games.
And second off: I don't think the whole mindset part is just about video games per se. It's more about a certain defensive reflex in the human brain that results in making new impressions and challenges seem like a threat, and thus makes us unwilling to get invested in anything beyond what we already know. And I don't think that's a healthy or productive way to go about interacting with any form of art, or the world in general.
Edit:
As I said, kentona, you do you. But surrendering to defeatism is not an option in my book. And the human brain isn't just a container for predetermined conditions you cannot avoid. It is a constant conflict between impulse, learning, and will, and you can consciously influence the way your mind and personality develop. It's part of the process called socialisation, without which we wouldn't even be here discussing this.
Ironically, my defeatism arose partly because I refused to acknowledge the realities I'm talking about now. :)
Think of me as that old crone NPC in the first village warning you about some imminent threat.
Think of me as that old crone NPC in the first village warning you about some imminent threat.
author=kentona
I had a thought...
how are old jRPG "so bad" if I had so much fun playing them back then?
They're not, especially if that's what you enjoy about them.
It's like old cinema, I think. Some people prefer all the conventions that have changed about film in the last however many years, and some people like the old black and white films.
My goal is always "try to take the stuff you loved about old games and preserve those feelings while game-making. And the stuff that you don't enjoy as much, try to make that part more enjoyable." But if you truly found all of it enjoyable, then I say make that and don't worry about it. I personally prefer some of the new innovations in RPGs, but a good old Dragon-Quest 1-3 type game is a lot of fun every now and then ^_^
author=kentona
I had a thought...
how are old jRPG "so bad" if I had so much fun playing them back then?
It's the same reason that as kids we enjoyed playing Monopoly and Candyland. Our standard of quality increases as we experience more things. There are a lot of games I loved as a kid that I can't force myself to enjoy anymore, because I've been spoiled on better things. I used to be absolutely obsessed with the .hack games but a couple years ago, I tried to replay them for nostalgia's sake but wow, the gameplay in them is really clunky and I couldn't get far.
And it's not just JRPGs. I was huge into GoldenEye 64 way back in the day. Now that's a game that didn't age well! Developers have learned a lot about what works and what doesn't from the past, so it's only natural that they've improved over time.
BlackWolf1992
234
Even though there a lot of flaws in games like the Dot.Hack (which I went back and played...still love the G.U series better) or Golden Eye 64, we still remember them. So, are they still fun to play maybe not but we still remember them well and it is those flaws that allow us game devs to create something better.
author=kentona
I had a thought...
how are old jRPG "so bad" if I had so much fun playing them back then?
As unity said: they're not. What I think specifically is that almost every game has merits and positive aspects that can/could be enjoyable. If you're young and impressionable, or simply don't have access to a large selection of different games to begin with, you're likely going to be focusing on the enjoyable parts and turn a blind eye to the problems a game has. Also, when a certain type of content is still new to you and leaves you with a lot to explore, you might not be bothered by things that people with different experiences will immediately complain about. Or you yourself even, when looking at it in retrospect.
The question isn't whether old games are "so bad" per se. They likely aren't, at least not in every single regard. The question is whether with a certain distance in time and emotion, we find that some aspects of it have lost their novelty and entertainment value, or even become tiresome to us, because we now know it doesn't have to be that way. At some point, we might acknowledge that both our personal growth and the further evolution of the video game medium itself have allowed us to take other views and alternatives into consideration. And this can make us aware of problems that we originally - consciously or subconsciously - chose to blissfully ignore.
If your fond memories and personal tastes allow you to temporarily return to that state and appreciate your old favourites despite their now more obvious issues, then that's a positive application of nostalgia. After all, it only serves to enhance your own joy.
However, if this personal connection to old memories and artifacts cause you to immediately shut out or even despise anything new or different, then I'd argue that's a case of nostalgia gone wrong. Same thing if you can already feel your blood boiling at the very thought of someone else pointing out what weaknesses your old favourites have, and why those weaknesses are too glaring for them to enjoy what possible good parts remain.
There's nothing bad about just laying back and enjoying a good old classic you feel an emotional bond with every so often. But that isn't mutually exclusive with acknowledging that the medium is still developing and reinventing itself constantly, and being excited that you get to be a witness or even a part of that exploration.
author=BlackWolf1992
Even though there a lot of flaws in games like the Dot.Hack (which I went back and played...still love the G.U series better) or Golden Eye 64, we still remember them. So, are they still fun to play maybe not but we still remember them well and it is those flaws that allow us game devs to create something better.
Right, and that's why it's important to stay up-to-date on contemporary games. Other developers are also learning from the past and iterating on the strengths and weaknesses of the games that came before. Not only that, but it's contemporary games that are (re)defining today's players' standards. It's important to keep your finger on the pulse of what your players are accustomed to and expect.
I don't think so, Sailerius. Games I appreciate and like today are usually taking from the old not caring about modern (high poly 3d graphics, blood, killing and action). Sometimes It's just nice to be nostalgic. Games like Golden Eye 64 look like pure fun in comparison to most modern shooters. Fun modern shooters like Shadow Warrior are nostalgic. And If I had kids, I would prefer to play games of my childhood like Dragon Quest or Zelda with them over bloody massacres of modern games.
The pulse is not real. And I think you can be fine taking from the old only and giving it your own ideas.
Other thing is that fun doesn't always mean good.
The pulse is not real. And I think you can be fine taking from the old only and giving it your own ideas.
Other thing is that fun doesn't always mean good.
BlackWolf1992
234
That is also true. In the end, games are what you make them. You cannot please the whole world.
I kind of want to go back and play GoldenEye 64 now.
I kind of want to go back and play GoldenEye 64 now.
author=Cap_H
modern (high poly 3d graphics, blood, killing and action)
author=Cap_HYou know, I personally hate gory games with a passion, and couldn't even play them without my stomach turning upside down. And I know there's a lot of them out there. But pretending like that's the defining or representative trait or mainstream of contemporary games is extremely superficial and nonsensical. There's so much more diversity to be found in our modern gaming environment, and you know that.
bloody massacres of modern games.
To a certain degree, the pulse is real. That doesn't mean it's the only thing to keep in mind and cater to as a game developer - in fact, I would caution against such an opportunistic dogma. But just refusing to even acknowledge what creative works are and have been produced at this time or pretending everything was better in the "good old days" is ridiculous and ignorant.
author=Cap_HI'm guessing you haven't played many modern games. You're claiming that the only innovations that modern games have are high poly graphics, blood, killing, and action? Really? There hasn't been a single innovation in game design since the N64?
I don't think so, Sailerius. Games I appreciate and like today are usually taking from the old not caring about modern (high poly 3d graphics, blood, killing and action). Sometimes It's just nice to be nostalgic. Games like Golden Eye 64 look like pure fun in comparison to most modern shooters. Fun modern shooters like Shadow Warrior are nostalgic. And If I had kids, I would prefer to play games of my childhood like Dragon Quest or Zelda with them over bloody massacres of modern games.
The pulse is not real. And I think you can be fine taking from the old only and giving it your own ideas.
Other thing is that fun doesn't always mean good.
I'm not trying to single you out here, because I think that dismissive attitude is unfortunately common in the indie dev scene, and it's poisonous toward innovation. It's why so many indie games are reskinned versions of oldschool games. If you want to make something good, I strongly encourage you to broaden your horizons.
Jeez, the more Salerius talks, the more I think he's a dev god. I should interact with him more. He really echoes a lot of my feelings about game development. I love RPGs. My problem with RPGs is that they all end up being clones of each other, so my answer to improving that is obviously to look at games other than RPGs. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with that. That's why the project I led for McBacon Jam 3 ended up being a choose-your-own adventure type graphic novel with RPG elements.
RPGs don't have to be new to be fresh, but I really recommend you don't look to classic RPGs to inform how your own RPG is going to be made because, seriously, everyone has done it and all anyone is going to see is just the same old thing. In my reviews I've actually been having to fight the urge to say, "I can't recommend this because there are dozens of other better RPG Maker games just like this one." It's rude, and it's not fair to the dev's game, but it has an undeniable truth to it and it can be said about the vast majority of games we're making.
RPGs don't have to be new to be fresh, but I really recommend you don't look to classic RPGs to inform how your own RPG is going to be made because, seriously, everyone has done it and all anyone is going to see is just the same old thing. In my reviews I've actually been having to fight the urge to say, "I can't recommend this because there are dozens of other better RPG Maker games just like this one." It's rude, and it's not fair to the dev's game, but it has an undeniable truth to it and it can be said about the vast majority of games we're making.
I more wanted to go against our words, I play loads of new games and as someone who should write for living, I'm always interested in new narrative trends. I just wanted to express myself that there is more to it than just being modern and following trends. I think, that it's easier talking about UX of apps in general than games. You can make your app using Material design, but it doesn't make it automatically better than an outdated app, which got better functionality yet it is uglier. Still many people will choose newer one, just to have more pleasant time with it. I get it in this context. And my mind is not barricaded against anything.
And I follow trends in gaming, some of them are interesting and not usable for me at all. I would be more concerned about it if I left RM behind and put myself in more serious gam mak. And the pulse is as real as you want it to be. It's digital reality, which has an influence on our lives, but can be limited. We're lucky, that we can still exist without knowing anything about computers and internet and all that digital stuff. I personally like it, but I'm glad to have a choice too. You can leave all this behind and just stay in woods with your old Nintendo.
The truth is that there are games, which took good from the old and didn't added anything new. They are often good but are they memorable? Some of them are.
Other games took good from the old, added fresh ideas, turned out as great and were forgotten later on (and are about to be rediscovered as cult classics).
So its much more complicated than I can write in four sentences. My main point is that the best way is to make what feels natural for you. It can be uninspired rpg and you may expect a success and it can be delivered. The game here is so much more complicated.
To return it to somehow normal level, I would like to tell, that I can't see anything bad on playing good old games. I know that western RPGs like Ultima series are better in many ways than modern ones. And I love my Bioware games.
You can learn a lot from these. And I think that indie developers are taking more from Ultima or Rogue than from Mass Effect. It depends on budget too.
Still the scene became big and we're probably having only slightly different points of view, which don't stand against each other and may be caused by misunderstanding (I'm terrible with english sometimes), my need to Defend developer of Hellion (that game reflects trends quite well), various snobism and personal poses. I think we all understand that playing one game in particular is not important and there are always games, which we would recommend.
And Okami, I know that game but don't have playstations.
And I follow trends in gaming, some of them are interesting and not usable for me at all. I would be more concerned about it if I left RM behind and put myself in more serious gam mak. And the pulse is as real as you want it to be. It's digital reality, which has an influence on our lives, but can be limited. We're lucky, that we can still exist without knowing anything about computers and internet and all that digital stuff. I personally like it, but I'm glad to have a choice too. You can leave all this behind and just stay in woods with your old Nintendo.
The truth is that there are games, which took good from the old and didn't added anything new. They are often good but are they memorable? Some of them are.
Other games took good from the old, added fresh ideas, turned out as great and were forgotten later on (and are about to be rediscovered as cult classics).
So its much more complicated than I can write in four sentences. My main point is that the best way is to make what feels natural for you. It can be uninspired rpg and you may expect a success and it can be delivered. The game here is so much more complicated.
To return it to somehow normal level, I would like to tell, that I can't see anything bad on playing good old games. I know that western RPGs like Ultima series are better in many ways than modern ones. And I love my Bioware games.
You can learn a lot from these. And I think that indie developers are taking more from Ultima or Rogue than from Mass Effect. It depends on budget too.
Still the scene became big and we're probably having only slightly different points of view, which don't stand against each other and may be caused by misunderstanding (I'm terrible with english sometimes), my need to Defend developer of Hellion (that game reflects trends quite well), various snobism and personal poses. I think we all understand that playing one game in particular is not important and there are always games, which we would recommend.
And Okami, I know that game but don't have playstations.
