Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
JRPG ESSENTIALS
Posts
NeverSilent
View playlists
Closeauthor=BadLuck
Huh. I feel like I'm not following your train of thought here, Kentona.
What I'm piecing together here is that you're saying people that like innovative games can't share their opinions without accidentally disparaging people, and if they want to avoid that, they're forced to be quiet.
Do I have that right, or is there some other point being made that I'm not getting?
Yeah, I'm kind of confused as to where you're trying to go with this as well, kentona. And, even moreso, I'm curious about people's thoughts on ways to avoid those problems. That is, how can we loudly appreciate games without disparaging those whose views differ? And, perhaps, what can we do in order to try and bridge the gap, so to speak, and enhance our mutual understanding concerning our preferences and priorities when it comes to video games?
author=Sailerius
I wish we could have some kind of weekly or monthly discussion on recent non-RPGs to foster new game design discussions. Like we have a gamedev equivalent of a book club where we have one game at a time that we're discussing and analyzing. It would also be a good way to get exposed to new games that are worth checking out.
That's a good idea! You should go ahead and start a topic like that!
(Maybe it's even worth combining this with our discussion regarding "classics," either by alternating between new and (good) old games, or by having an accompanying thread where people can discuss old games at regular intervals and compare them to modern games.)
author=BadLuck
Huh. I feel like I'm not following your train of thought here, Kentona.
What I'm piecing together here is that you're saying people that like innovative games can't share their opinions without accidentally disparaging people, and if they want to avoid that, they're forced to be quiet.
Do I have that right, or is there some other point being made that I'm not getting?
Your first mistake is assuming I have a coherent train of thought.
The second was that I was called out for being a hypocrite, quite rightly.
The points I was making were more just observations than anything...
1. When you play a lot of games/get older, you tend to get jaded. Novelty becomes harder to find.
2. When that happens, I feel that people tend to fall into 2 camps: a) retreating into old favorites, b) constantly seek/demand more novelty to sate their desires
3. I am old and crotchety.
It's the attitude of "old games and games of this ilk are shit because
I also take it a little personally when people shit on these oldschool games that I love, because I still find them enjoyable and retreat into them all the time.
I also have trouble acknowledging that people make gut-decisions ALL THE TIME about everything, followed up with RATIONALIZATIONS ON WHY SAID DECISION IS THE BEST/LOGICALLY SOUND DECISION. Humans are the worst.
If you're gonna post Grandpa Simpson in a thread about jrpgs then you really should go with this:
Also a hearty warning that JRPGs is a genre of slow burns, the number of hours was a point of pride for some of these games, and rote gameplay. If you aren't having fun with a recommended game feel free to drop it and move on before getting mired in some inception-style mandatory sidequest chain where every battle is the same as the last. Even the thread favorite Chrono Trigger (which I'd recommend to try too as one of the most well-made SNES-era JRPGs) and its dungeons and battles aren't very engaging outside of some spots where they had the time and budget to do so.
Basically feel free to try 'em out but please don't feel obligated to try and finish them. Fast-forward and save states are your friend when available. Also Final Fantasy 5's GBA port is another good SNES-era JRPG if being able to change your character's roles and abilities sounds fun to you.
e: I like my sense of timing
Also a hearty warning that JRPGs is a genre of slow burns, the number of hours was a point of pride for some of these games, and rote gameplay. If you aren't having fun with a recommended game feel free to drop it and move on before getting mired in some inception-style mandatory sidequest chain where every battle is the same as the last. Even the thread favorite Chrono Trigger (which I'd recommend to try too as one of the most well-made SNES-era JRPGs) and its dungeons and battles aren't very engaging outside of some spots where they had the time and budget to do so.
Basically feel free to try 'em out but please don't feel obligated to try and finish them. Fast-forward and save states are your friend when available. Also Final Fantasy 5's GBA port is another good SNES-era JRPG if being able to change your character's roles and abilities sounds fun to you.
e: I like my sense of timing
author=Sailerius
I wish we could have some kind of weekly or monthly discussion on recent non-RPGs to foster new game design discussions. Like we have a gamedev equivalent of a book club where we have one game at a time that we're discussing and analyzing. It would also be a good way to get exposed to new games that are worth checking out.
Everyone on the site is free to create topics... ;p
A fair amount of the grumblers are very loud, obnoxious and foam-at-the-mouth about 'what is wrong with all things old!' and tend to forget that a lot of the games they like from the here-and-now, which they call 'inspired' and 'incredible' were created by people who had a love of those old games and were inspired to create new games due to them.
Hell, even the game creators of old based their games off other old stuff, whether it be DnD campaigns, stories they'd heard, mathematical ideas/equations, games they played as kids or the like.
Either way, I think that whilst you can appreciate games both old and new, you do tend to favour one or the other a bit more. Personally, I have no qualms about the fact I much prefer the older games, but on the other hand, I've definitely enjoyed newer games too (Okami is almost damn near perfect, and yes, I know I've said that a bunch of times but it's goddamn true!).
(I just don't think Undertale was that great all up. It had good points, but it wasn't particularly amazing and/or incredible. There are games that did what it tried to do before, so it's hardly ground-breaking. It just took ideas from a bunch of other games and tried to get them to work in one game. :shrug:
Of course, if you've never been introduced to those ideas and concepts before it would come off as something brand-spanking new, I suppose, but for those who have played a lot of games the stuff it gets high praise for comes off as a bit old-hat and confusing why people would be all up in arms over it for doing x thing, but not the original game it took the idea from in the first place.)
author=kentonaYo, calm down. I don't think it was anyone's intention to make this a personal matter. And it also seems strange to assume that a lot of people have the attitude that the RPG genre doesn't have anything to offer to them any more, because why would they show interest in those kinds of games (if only to bash them) to begin with then? The thing about genres is that they aren't static and unchangeable. They continue to evolve as more works are created, and it would take a particularly narrow-minded approach to assume that one can just "exhaust" a genre that easily.
It's the attitude of "old games and games of this ilk are shit becauseI've grokked the genre*long list of reasons I've come up with why said games are bad, to rationalize my gut-decision to dislike games of this 'old' style simply because I've outgrown them/played them so much the genre doesn't have much to offer me personally anymore" that irks me. Like, I get that the joy of discovery has been exhausted for you for these oldschool games, but your personal growth doesn't invalidate the fact these games are legit fun/good/enjoyable.
I also take it a little personally when people shit on these oldschool games that I love, because I still find them enjoyable and retreat into them all the time.
What I'm especially interested in, though, is this:
author=kentonaYou don't seem content with the situation as you perceive it, and it appears you've built up quite a lot of frustration over it. So my question is: Are you at all interested in changing this dynamic of apparent miscommunication and misunderstanding? Because I truly and honestly think it would benefit the people you are so angry about if you could find a way to help them (and me?) understand why you find the old-school games you like so fun/good/enjoyable. And I also think it would benefit you if you tried to escape the mindset you're caught in now and were more open to possible connecting elements between the things you know you like and the things you're sceptical about.
your personal growth doesn't invalidate the fact these games are legit fun/good/enjoyable.
In other words: How can we - both as game designers and players - overcome any self-serving and limiting attitudes, and together further develop the positive aspects of the kinds of games we like, instead of yelling at each other over the negative?
author=LibertyNow I'm legit curious: Which games are you referring to here specifically? Because it seems you've got a more well-informed perspective than me here, and I'd like to understand what you're saying better.
(I just don't think Undertale was that great all up. It had good points, but it wasn't particularly amazing and/or incredible. There are games that did what it tried to do before, so it's hardly ground-breaking. It just took ideas from a bunch of other games and tried to get them to work in one game. :shrug:
Of course, if you've never been introduced to those ideas and concepts before it would come off as something brand-spanking new, I suppose, but for those who have played a lot of games the stuff it gets high praise for comes off as a bit old-hat and confusing why people would be all up in arms over it for doing x thing, but not the original game it took the idea from in the first place.)
Edit: Just so we're on the same page here: Is your own playthrough of Undertale the only one you've seen, or do you know of the true ending and the, ehm, "other" route as well?
Well, lets put it this way. As incredulous as you find it to be that people think Undertale looks dumb or isnt fun, is as incredulous as I feel when someone says that Chrono Trigger is so bad.
Very interesting topic that I wish I had read sooner.
This is one of those rare occasions where I see where Sailerius is coming from: Thematically, most of the (few, short) projects I've worked on have been inspired by things other than RPGs. Hell, thinking about it they weren't even video games.
Examples:
- "Iris" was inspired by a love of modern hip-hop music and how it can be used in more, uh, historical settings like the anime Samurai Champloo.
- I thought up "Gotta Clean Up The World" (which I will get around to working on again, one day) after watching a lot of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Seinfeld.
- Hell, when I worked on "Disparity" with NeverSilent, TungerMan, and suzy_cheesedreams, most of the ideas I contributed were based off Breaking Bad.
- Last but not least, I shouldn't have to explain why I got the idea for "Being Yellow Magic" from...
Having said that, when one things of the jRPG, typically the battle system is a big part of it, so there's no harm in borrowing ideas from other jRPGs. Personally, I'm a big fan of the more strategic battle systems in games like the Shin Megami Tensei series.
With respect to the old vs. new games: I am 99% sure the sentiment of preferring the old is experienced by every generation, and very likely that nostalgia plays a bit part in it.
This is one of those rare occasions where I see where Sailerius is coming from: Thematically, most of the (few, short) projects I've worked on have been inspired by things other than RPGs. Hell, thinking about it they weren't even video games.
Examples:
- "Iris" was inspired by a love of modern hip-hop music and how it can be used in more, uh, historical settings like the anime Samurai Champloo.
- I thought up "Gotta Clean Up The World" (which I will get around to working on again, one day) after watching a lot of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Seinfeld.
- Hell, when I worked on "Disparity" with NeverSilent, TungerMan, and suzy_cheesedreams, most of the ideas I contributed were based off Breaking Bad.
- Last but not least, I shouldn't have to explain why I got the idea for "Being Yellow Magic" from...
Having said that, when one things of the jRPG, typically the battle system is a big part of it, so there's no harm in borrowing ideas from other jRPGs. Personally, I'm a big fan of the more strategic battle systems in games like the Shin Megami Tensei series.
With respect to the old vs. new games: I am 99% sure the sentiment of preferring the old is experienced by every generation, and very likely that nostalgia plays a bit part in it.
Perhaps, but here's an essay explaining why the game I played as an impressionable teen is objectively the best ever and no game that follows could ever top it...
@NeSi: I've seen a few LPs. It's not a game that interests me much, I'll be honest, and having to watch 'the full thing over and over' just to 'get it' is pretty stupid, but I saw enough to know how the game evolves as you choose different ways to interact. No spoilers obviously.
Other games have done those aspects in the past, though - it's not a new concept. Like I said, Toby Fox just took old ideas from many other games and shoved them all into -one- game. But those ideas had already existed elsewhere.
Other games have done those aspects in the past, though - it's not a new concept. Like I said, Toby Fox just took old ideas from many other games and shoved them all into -one- game. But those ideas had already existed elsewhere.
author=kentonaThat's the thing, though: I don't find that incredulous at all. Sure, I obviously think you're wrong and that if you were willing to expand your horizon a bit, you might see the merits of games you'd never have thought you'd enjoy. But I at least believe I sort of see why you feel the way you do. I may not agree, but I can understand your perspective to a certain degree.
Well, lets put it this way. As incredulous as you find it to be that people think Undertale looks dumb or isnt fun, is as incredulous as I feel when someone says that Chrono Trigger is so bad.
And it kind of confuses me that you seem to want to insist that there's no common ground or mutual understanding to be had here. Even if in the end it turns out I absolutely cannot grasp what it is that makes you prefer one game over another, I at least want to try and give your approach some serious consideration. Do you really believe it's impossible for any of us to take a step back from our own nostalgia and emotion-driven prejudices?
Edit @Liberty:
I mean, it's not that I don't want to believe you. But again, can I ask which games specifically you're talking about? Because I might want to look into those.
TheNecromancer
3160
The short answer is don't play any of these games. Just research them.
Read the manual or gamefaq files(this is probably the best of all). Read about people's party make up and equip choices. Watch snippets of gameplay to see how it works in reality. To play a game from the start means you need to suffer through the slow paced beginning and time consuming grinding just to pass a few levels in an hour or two, and by then you won't really learn much because most gameplay mechanics show themselves towards the end of the game when all moves and options and characters are unlocked. Huge waste of time for very little reward.
For some games you could probably play one, and understand the other. Like if you played one FF game(before around 9-10), then played an older one, there wouldn't be much different except a few battle options. So just play one and read about the differences in the other. For the love of god don't play FF 4 5 and 6.
Hell, for most of these games a person could give you a few sentences and you will take away everything interesting from that game without having to play it. From a research point of view, the only reason to play these games is to enjoy the story as that is the kind of thing that requires large amounts of time to take in. Which is to say there is no reason to play these games if you simply want to learn gameplay stuff. Gameplay elements are bullet points. Change job/class. Catch monsters to use them to fight. Combine 2 character's skills into one. Enough said. Then mix and match and come up with your own spin on them. Expand on them. Tie them into other gameplay elements.
You might want to play some of these games more because it offers many different ways for the player to change their ingame strategy, which then gives more insight into the nuances of the gameplay. But I doubt many games offer that much. Most games tend to have limited number of strategies that work, and it usually involves dealing more damage or use the good equip loadouts. Or flat out over leveling. Even if a game offers different classes, playing it as a different class probably won't teach you anything new about it's gameplay.
Of course if you like a game, you might want to play it all the way through. There's that.
Read the manual or gamefaq files(this is probably the best of all). Read about people's party make up and equip choices. Watch snippets of gameplay to see how it works in reality. To play a game from the start means you need to suffer through the slow paced beginning and time consuming grinding just to pass a few levels in an hour or two, and by then you won't really learn much because most gameplay mechanics show themselves towards the end of the game when all moves and options and characters are unlocked. Huge waste of time for very little reward.
For some games you could probably play one, and understand the other. Like if you played one FF game(before around 9-10), then played an older one, there wouldn't be much different except a few battle options. So just play one and read about the differences in the other. For the love of god don't play FF 4 5 and 6.
Hell, for most of these games a person could give you a few sentences and you will take away everything interesting from that game without having to play it. From a research point of view, the only reason to play these games is to enjoy the story as that is the kind of thing that requires large amounts of time to take in. Which is to say there is no reason to play these games if you simply want to learn gameplay stuff. Gameplay elements are bullet points. Change job/class. Catch monsters to use them to fight. Combine 2 character's skills into one. Enough said. Then mix and match and come up with your own spin on them. Expand on them. Tie them into other gameplay elements.
You might want to play some of these games more because it offers many different ways for the player to change their ingame strategy, which then gives more insight into the nuances of the gameplay. But I doubt many games offer that much. Most games tend to have limited number of strategies that work, and it usually involves dealing more damage or use the good equip loadouts. Or flat out over leveling. Even if a game offers different classes, playing it as a different class probably won't teach you anything new about it's gameplay.
Of course if you like a game, you might want to play it all the way through. There's that.
FF 4 5 6 are the only FFs I've really played. They are a lot of fun.
I tried 12, 13, and 14 but I couldnt get into them.
Also I agree with Link. Reading the synopsis of Citizen Kane and knowing the twist is enough to appreciate it.
E:
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-video-games-become-more-boring-the-older-you-are
http://www.theoryoffun.com/theoryoffun.pdf
...I should re-read Theory of Fun.
(To close off this Undertale sidebar, I am reasonably certain that I will not enjoy it for a few reasons:
1. The description of the game didn't appeal to me
2. I find ironic metahumor to be immersion breaking
3. I don't particularly enjoy bullet hells
4. I absolutely LOVE playing games over and over again with a clean slate to try different strategies, and the whole point of Undertale seems to be WHAT IF THERE IS NO CLEAN SLATE??
5. Liberty doesn't seem to like it, and her tastes are similar to mine
6. I love min/maxing stats and parties and classes in RPGs. Basically, the "preparation" side of RPGs. Undertale doesn't seem to delve into that at all as far as I can see
7. I enjoy validating the choices I make in preparation with challenges like battles in RPGs (I can elaborate on this if you want)
8. The vibe in invokes reminds me of Homestuck, and I really really really hate Homestuck. This is just a personal bias affecting my perception of Undertale, but it is hard to shake. I could be wrong though.
)
*GRS, this is why I used the 'USED TO BE WITH IT' video of Grandpa Simpson.
I tried 12, 13, and 14 but I couldnt get into them.
Also I agree with Link. Reading the synopsis of Citizen Kane and knowing the twist is enough to appreciate it.
E:
author=NeverSilentIt's not really about broadening my horizons. It's about legitimately games grow more boring as you get older*author=kentonaThat's the thing, though: I don't find that incredulous at all. Sure, I obviously think you're wrong and that if you were willing to expand your horizon a bit, you might see the merits of games you'd never have thought you'd enjoy. But I at least believe I sort of see why you feel the way you do. I may not agree, but I can understand your perspective to a certain degree.
Well, lets put it this way. As incredulous as you find it to be that people think Undertale looks dumb or isnt fun, is as incredulous as I feel when someone says that Chrono Trigger is so bad.
And it kind of confuses me that you seem to want to insist that there's no common ground or mutual understanding to be had here. Even if in the end it turns out I absolutely cannot grasp what it is that makes you prefer one game over another, I at least want to try and give your approach some serious consideration. Do you really believe it's impossible for any of us to take a step back from our own nostalgia and emotion-driven prejudices?
Edit @Liberty:
I mean, it's not that I don't want to believe you. But again, can I ask which games specifically you're talking about? Because I might want to look into those.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-video-games-become-more-boring-the-older-you-are
http://www.theoryoffun.com/theoryoffun.pdf
...I should re-read Theory of Fun.
(To close off this Undertale sidebar, I am reasonably certain that I will not enjoy it for a few reasons:
1. The description of the game didn't appeal to me
2. I find ironic metahumor to be immersion breaking
3. I don't particularly enjoy bullet hells
4. I absolutely LOVE playing games over and over again with a clean slate to try different strategies, and the whole point of Undertale seems to be WHAT IF THERE IS NO CLEAN SLATE??
5. Liberty doesn't seem to like it, and her tastes are similar to mine
6. I love min/maxing stats and parties and classes in RPGs. Basically, the "preparation" side of RPGs. Undertale doesn't seem to delve into that at all as far as I can see
7. I enjoy validating the choices I make in preparation with challenges like battles in RPGs (I can elaborate on this if you want)
8. The vibe in invokes reminds me of Homestuck, and I really really really hate Homestuck. This is just a personal bias affecting my perception of Undertale, but it is hard to shake. I could be wrong though.
)
*GRS, this is why I used the 'USED TO BE WITH IT' video of Grandpa Simpson.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
So what I'm hearing from the last couple pages is: Never play games anymore. Just watch the LPs and read the cliffnotes. Also, because a game has flaws automatically means they have nothing to help any aspiring developer.
Man, this game dev stuff is easy. XD
Ridiculously blanket cynicism aside, "fun" is an entirely subjective measurement, and I'm not sure why we're using that as evidence that they have nothing to offer to aspiring devs so they should never be played.
Can you explain why?
Can you explain why?
Man, this game dev stuff is easy. XD
Ridiculously blanket cynicism aside, "fun" is an entirely subjective measurement, and I'm not sure why we're using that as evidence that they have nothing to offer to aspiring devs so they should never be played.
author=kentona
FF 4 5 6 are the only FFs I've really played. They are a lot of fun.
Can you explain why?
I tried 12, 13, and 14 but I couldnt get into them.
Can you explain why?
author=Red_Nova
So what I'm hearing from the last couple pages is: Never play games anymore. Just watch the LPs and read the cliffnotes. Also, because a game has flaws automatically means they have nothing to help any aspiring developer.
Man, this game dev stuff is easy. XD
Ridiculously blanket cynicism aside, "fun" is an entirely subjective measurement, and I'm not sure why we're using that as evidence that they have nothing to offer to aspiring devs so they should never be played.
author=kentona
FF 4 5 6 are the only FFs I've really played. They are a lot of fun.
Can you explain why?
Sure, I can give it a shot!
I love min/maxing stats and parties and classes in RPGs. Basically, the "preparation" side of RPGs. Both FF5 and FF6 has this with their class systems/diverse cast/classes. FF4 just happens to be one of the first SNES RPGs I ever played. (It took me 17 years to actually finish it, though).
Both games gave you focused ways to tweak your PCs, and then validate them in rote battles. FF6 also had AMAZING MUSIC and beautiful pixelart, and that certainly influenced me. The freedom to modify and build your PCs is a huge plus for me (and what probably what lead me to love games like Diablo and KotOR).
I tried 12, 13, and 14 but I couldnt get into them.
Can you explain why?
I can give it a go.
I've only played about 15 mins of each game. A little longer for 14.
12 showed me a grandiose world with important events happening with meaningful people, and then placed me in control of some nobody twerp and expected me to be invested. And then the first battle happened and it was a confusing mess of blue arcs and little agency.
13 had me thinking I was playing FF7 with the whole train bit, and tbh the stuff I read about it being a linear tube has me a bit leary about it. You also seem to only control 1 character. It really sounds like your freedom to build a party is limited. But primarily, I have it on PC, and my monitor isn't a widescreen, and FF13 doesn't seem to have any setting for non-widescreen monitor so EVERYTHING IS SQUISHED.
I ordered a Steam Link and it should be here tomorrow, so I am going to revisit 13 on my TV.
14, I had a 2 week trial. It was fun enough, but it was an MMO and had the usual MMO trappings. If it had a F2P option I'd give it another go.
Used to be With It doesn't imply Grandpa screaming at famous jrpg protagonist Cloud, that's all 
The biggest lesson to take from gamefaqs walkthroughs is people who write that shit are horrible at writing and video games and should stay away from both unless you want the solution to everything in your game to be "grind more".
The biggest lesson to take from gamefaqs walkthroughs is people who write that shit are horrible at writing and video games and should stay away from both unless you want the solution to everything in your game to be "grind more".
author=GreatRedSpiritbut FFVII is one of dem newfangled "3D" games
Used to be With It doesn't imply Grandpa screaming at famous jrpg protagonist Cloud, that's all
The biggest lesson to take from gamefaqs walkthroughs is people who write that shit are horrible at writing and video games and should stay away from both unless you want the solution to everything in your game to be "grind more".
BlackWolf1992
234
author=kentona
12 showed me a grandiose world with important events happening with meaningful people, and then placed me in control of some nobody twerp and expected me to be invested. And then the first battle happened and it was a confusing mess of blue arcs and little agency.
I admit when I first played 12 I did not like it. I thought the game was unbalanced. Later on down the line I sat down and tried to play through it; putting more thought into my choices and such. The battle system plays out a bit like an MMO, I guess you could say it is a single player MMO. Once you get out into the world and explore the story more it is really not a bad story. Granted it is not the greatest either and yeah, Vaan is not really the most likable character. Honestly, the whole game does feel like an MMO, so if you hate the whole "grind and sidequest" stuff then yeah I can see it not being to your liking. I will say FFXII did have possible one of the best A.I systems in the game with allowing the player to choose what the ally does when said effect happens. I would like to see that more in games.
bicfarmer
3601
you're all on a site containing around 4000 custom games made by random people who are not restricted to tropes and rigid beliefs about games. Go explore! Hit that random button and try out some random homebrew game! Because with these, you NEVER know what to expect (especially when you dont bog yourself down with the images and descriptions). Its like opening a mystery game to play, lol
I usually read Hardcore Gaming 101 to get my info. That site is really good.
I understand Kentona's point of view, when it comes to Undertale. The game from the look of it is very youthful and only reason I got it on my wishlist is music. I don't really intend to buy it or play it any time soon. Also It's interesting how my overall tastes change. For example I disliked cute games. But I'm starting to be charmed by them and I learned to love terribad graphics and take from them.
I wanted to write something more but forgot it in the process.
I understand Kentona's point of view, when it comes to Undertale. The game from the look of it is very youthful and only reason I got it on my wishlist is music. I don't really intend to buy it or play it any time soon. Also It's interesting how my overall tastes change. For example I disliked cute games. But I'm starting to be charmed by them and I learned to love terribad graphics and take from them.
I wanted to write something more but forgot it in the process.
