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DUNGEONS IN RPGS - WHICH TYPES DO YOU PREFER?
Posts
dethmetal
990
dethmetal
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CloseWhile browsing a "things you don't like in jRPGs" thread on Reddit, many users mentioned they did not like puzzles in dungeons and preferred straightforward, point A to point B style design. My game features dungeons littered with various types of puzzles, so this makes me a bit nervous.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. What kind of dungeons do you prefer? Do you like dungeons filled with puzzles, ala Zelda? Do you prefer linear gauntlets, like in most old-school RPGs and many of the Final Fantasy games? Large, open areas with an emphasis on exploration? Something else? A mixture of everything?
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. What kind of dungeons do you prefer? Do you like dungeons filled with puzzles, ala Zelda? Do you prefer linear gauntlets, like in most old-school RPGs and many of the Final Fantasy games? Large, open areas with an emphasis on exploration? Something else? A mixture of everything?
TheGiantHand
43
I prefer dungeons with visible enemy sprites. Because I can see how people might not like too many puzzles or mazes if theres random encounters you cant avoid without Repels or the likes ala Pokemon. But I feel a good puzzle or two or three sprinkled into dungeons helps break up the monotony and prevents players from getting bored... as long as they're not hair pullingly difficult or frustrating: P
dethmetal
990
That reminds me. Puzzles + random encounters is really bad combination. A game can have one of those, but should never have both.
I personally like puzzles in my games but those puzzles have to be creative. It really annoys me when there is a lot of push this block here puzzles or the ice sliding one. Certain games I played had those all over the dungeon and it made me quit playing the game . gauntlets are boring for me, but I still liked the old final fantasy games.
Milennin
2060
Puzzles that span multiple screens suck, because it's a lot of walking back and forth and can become a confusing mess. Puzzle areas with monster encounters enabled suck, because you're constantly getting interrupted while trying to solve the thing. Puzzles that aren't really puzzles, but more like super obvious shove-the-block-into-place-but-still-take-a-minute-to-do-so suck, because they're just there to waste your time, not to challenge you.
If you can avoid doing those 3 things, puzzles become a lot more manageable.
If you can avoid doing those 3 things, puzzles become a lot more manageable.
I kinda think it depends on who your audience is. Like, would Zelda and it's ilk even exist if there wasn't an audience for it? Also, I don't think it's puzzles themselves that players hate, but how the game relays the puzzles, how they are solved, or how much of the game is blocked off by the puzzles.
Though, if there is one thing I want to comment about, it's the Blockheads of Okami. When players head-butt into them, a sequence of dots appear. Players are then tasked to repeat that sequence via the Celestial Brush. As the game progresses, the number of dots increase, and, I swear, the time between when they start appearing decrease. I think there's only two or three of these things that are plot-required, but the last one usually takes me more than a few attempts. There is at least one of these guys hidden away that's absolutely optional, but, I cannot get past it because I just cannot process the positions of the dots fast enough.
Though, if there is one thing I want to comment about, it's the Blockheads of Okami. When players head-butt into them, a sequence of dots appear. Players are then tasked to repeat that sequence via the Celestial Brush. As the game progresses, the number of dots increase, and, I swear, the time between when they start appearing decrease. I think there's only two or three of these things that are plot-required, but the last one usually takes me more than a few attempts. There is at least one of these guys hidden away that's absolutely optional, but, I cannot get past it because I just cannot process the positions of the dots fast enough.
Desertopa
775
author=Marrend
I kinda think it depends on who your audience is. Like, would Zelda and it's ilk even exist if there wasn't an audience for it? Also, I don't think it's puzzles themselves that players hate, but how the game relays the puzzles, how they are solved, or how much of the game is blocked off by the puzzles.
.
I think this is the fundamental issue here. Another facet I'd look at is, does the rest of your game filter for the kind of audience who'd appreciate the puzzles?
The most obvious and most effective way to filter for players who enjoy puzzles, or whatever other content you're using, is to have your game be part of a long-running series with consistent features. Since most of us don't have that option, the best we can probably do is make the games aesthetically cohesive and try to make it clear to players at the outset what kind of game they're getting into.
For myself I guess I tend to favor dungeons which form a logically sensible part of the narrative and are built in a way that makes sense in the context of what they're supposed to be in story terms, compared to dungeons which focus entirely on gameplay-based construction at the expense of making in-world sense.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I think the difference in Zelda's puzzle dungeons is that the puzzles are by and large gameplay-based, since it's an action game, whereas most RPGMaker games are turn-based, so dungeon puzzles are kind of a non-optional minigame. For turn-based gameplay, a more fitting puzzle would be figuring out the strategy to defeat a particular enemy.
That being said, I tend to like puzzles in dungeons, mainly because I like puzzles in general, but that's not a good reason to have them in there. I like dressup games, too, but don't think they'd make a particularly good addition to a dungeon in most games.
That being said, I tend to like puzzles in dungeons, mainly because I like puzzles in general, but that's not a good reason to have them in there. I like dressup games, too, but don't think they'd make a particularly good addition to a dungeon in most games.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like puzzles, though I definitely agree that combining them with random battles is usually a terrible combination.
More generally I like dungeons where you have to find the path through the dungeon. That can be accomplished through solving puzzles, through finding secrets, through defeating or avoiding certain enemies, or most commonly, through simple exploration with the threat of random battles deterring you from wandering thoughtlessly. Or many other ways! But it just seems so much more engaging than simply following the path through the dungeon.
For the same reason, I hate objective indicators in modern games, at least once I'm in a closed area like a dungeon. In towns and overworlds, when finding where to go holds no challenge and is just a time sink, they make way more sense. But in a dungeon, I want you to make figuring out where to go part of the gameplay. I want to feel like the environment is part of the challenge.
More generally I like dungeons where you have to find the path through the dungeon. That can be accomplished through solving puzzles, through finding secrets, through defeating or avoiding certain enemies, or most commonly, through simple exploration with the threat of random battles deterring you from wandering thoughtlessly. Or many other ways! But it just seems so much more engaging than simply following the path through the dungeon.
For the same reason, I hate objective indicators in modern games, at least once I'm in a closed area like a dungeon. In towns and overworlds, when finding where to go holds no challenge and is just a time sink, they make way more sense. But in a dungeon, I want you to make figuring out where to go part of the gameplay. I want to feel like the environment is part of the challenge.
bicfarmer
3601
you know what i dont like that i see in a lot of rpgmaker games? dongeons made using the random generator, filled with random encounters
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=bicfarmerI think the kind of people who don't even make their own dungeons are completely beyond help.
dongeons made using the random generator
author=LockeZauthor=bicfarmerI think the kind of people who don't even make their own dungeons
dongeons made using the random generatorare completely beyond helpshouldn't be making games that contain dungeons.
I like dungeons that are strongly-themed and have elements that build on themselves organically. If you have puzzles, I like it when the puzzles are built around consistent and easy to understand rules. Introduce the 'rules' of the puzzle in a very easy scenario and then gradually introduce more challenging iterations using the same elements.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Can you give an example of how that might apply to a dungeon without puzzles?
Yeaster
6164
I never liked puzzles. Mainly because I'm not the sharpest when it comes to certain things, and can't ever figure them out without a guide. But some puzzles are okay. It's best to have some variety in dungeons.
You know, a game that doesn't get mentioned much when it comes to the puzzles in the dungeons is Legend of Legaia II - but I loved how they did them. I can't recall much more than lights that you had to turn on and off and stuff like that but they really fit and I recall loving the shit outta them like "Oh God, these are good puzzles. I like these. I could do these all day!"
I'd have to replay that game again with my dev eyes on in order to explain better, but I remember that they were good and never get mentioned by anyone ever.
Also, Okami puzzles. There was something just fun about changing the environment around you in order to progress. In fact, I really like that as a mechanic in dungeons - changing water levels, breaking blocks and opening new pathways. Something about interacting with the dungeon itself is very satisfying. Add monsters into the mix (say bomb-type monsters that you can beat near a broken wall to destroy and open a path, for example) and it's a lot of fun. Especially when there's lots of treasure to find~<3
I make dungeons that are straight paths through but with offshoots that you can look through to find extra stuff (side quests, treasures, etc). It makes sense that humanity would choose the most straightforward way through an area (it's what we've done, historically) and it makes sense not to annoy your players with huge maps. Unlocking shortcuts (push a tree from the other side of the river you just took 10 minutes to get past in order to remove that 10 minutes of travel) is always fun too.
I'd have to replay that game again with my dev eyes on in order to explain better, but I remember that they were good and never get mentioned by anyone ever.
Also, Okami puzzles. There was something just fun about changing the environment around you in order to progress. In fact, I really like that as a mechanic in dungeons - changing water levels, breaking blocks and opening new pathways. Something about interacting with the dungeon itself is very satisfying. Add monsters into the mix (say bomb-type monsters that you can beat near a broken wall to destroy and open a path, for example) and it's a lot of fun. Especially when there's lots of treasure to find~<3
I make dungeons that are straight paths through but with offshoots that you can look through to find extra stuff (side quests, treasures, etc). It makes sense that humanity would choose the most straightforward way through an area (it's what we've done, historically) and it makes sense not to annoy your players with huge maps. Unlocking shortcuts (push a tree from the other side of the river you just took 10 minutes to get past in order to remove that 10 minutes of travel) is always fun too.
I like puzzles in dungeons under these conditions.
-No random encounters, or at least no random encounters in the puzzle area. Even if you have standing or roaming encounters (preferred) don't put them in the puzzle area.
-Allow a reset for the puzzle. We all make mistakes.
-Minimize backtracking.
-Exploration itself can be a puzzle. Show a treasure on the other side of a canal, and I'll start looking for a wooden plank or a valve that needs turned.
-Elevator puzzles can go to hell.
-Puzzles following some sort of creative logic. Don't have ice sliding puzzles in your fire dungeon.
I recently beat Persona 5 and even it had some good puzzles (actually, all the dungeons except the casino were excellent) that stayed in theme and made sense. The pyramid is one of my fav dungeons now. It was a straight line with gates that you needed to dip into side routes to get through. Puzzles galore, all thematic, fantastic enemy placement, non-confusing layout and abundant shortcut unlocking.
-No random encounters, or at least no random encounters in the puzzle area. Even if you have standing or roaming encounters (preferred) don't put them in the puzzle area.
-Allow a reset for the puzzle. We all make mistakes.
-Minimize backtracking.
-Exploration itself can be a puzzle. Show a treasure on the other side of a canal, and I'll start looking for a wooden plank or a valve that needs turned.
-Elevator puzzles can go to hell.
-Puzzles following some sort of creative logic. Don't have ice sliding puzzles in your fire dungeon.
I recently beat Persona 5 and even it had some good puzzles (actually, all the dungeons except the casino were excellent) that stayed in theme and made sense. The pyramid is one of my fav dungeons now. It was a straight line with gates that you needed to dip into side routes to get through. Puzzles galore, all thematic, fantastic enemy placement, non-confusing layout and abundant shortcut unlocking.
Desertopa
775
author=Dragnfly
-Puzzles following some sort of creative logic. Don't have ice sliding puzzles in your fire dungeon.
I get annoyed by puzzles which are basically thematic non sequiturs (recently re-played Breath of Fire 3 and I was kind of stunned looking back at how many puzzles and minigames there are which there are no sensible reasons for,) but some types of puzzles are just too obvious in my opinion. If you have an ice cave, an ice-sliding puzzle is so expected I actually find it kind of annoying. I've never seen someone actually try to put an ice-sliding puzzle in a fire dungeon, but if someone decided to come up with an interesting excuse to justify having one, I'd be inclined to at least give it credit for originality.
