IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME? AM I JUST NOT A GOOD DEV?

Posts

Red_Nova
The all around prick
7612
Just to clear something up: LockeZ isn't a mod. Purple names are Staff, and they help with site-based things like events and the like. People with green names are mods.

Tough love is fine, but that was more like violent love.

EDIT: But we do have mod powers we're trusted not to abuse. ;3 ~ hali
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
21237
author=Ciel
anyway i think the sentiment was just a very unusually denigrating version of the 'always be a learner' bruce lee enlightened disciple mindset kind of thing
that's what I got out of it.

I find it worthwhile to deflate my ego and gain some perspective once in a while, too.

E:
its kinda like this attitude:

self-loathing as a motivational technique!
Red_Nova
The all around prick
7612
Very funny, hali.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
26530
I personally don't understand why LockeZ is being warned.

I mean, we know how LockeZ is and the things he tends to say. That said, while I think he's wrong that there are no good RPG Maker games (Free Spirits, Whisper of a Rose, Vindictive Drive, LockeZ's own games such as Vindication, Remnants of Isolation--erm--anything unity or Red_Nova have made, really), I don't think he's wrong with what he's trying to say and I do agree with the overall intent of his comment. Perhaps he could have framed the comment a bit better.

And yes, Red_Nova, the reason I didn't mention Indrah was that this post wasn't intended as an attack on her, but rather...

I saw the criticism as very destructive and belligerent. The kind where even if there was useful criticism, it would be absolutely lost amid the chaff. To wit, I really see that the current trend in the RM community is that there is no such thing as bad criticism (a sentiment that I have personally voiced). Unfortunately, I wrote the topic literally within minutes of having listened to the stream clip, so as I wrote, my question of the legitimacy of certain forms of criticism literally devolved into self-destructive self-evaluation, so much so that I changed the name of the post, instead of rewriting the post, which would have been wiser.

As a point of perspective, I found LockeZ's comment of my RPG Maker game sucking to be perfectly inoffensive and I found the overall comment to be a very useful and motivational sentiment, whereas compare this to my reaction to Indrah's stream. There's a tremendous difference between LockeZ's and Indrah's sentiments.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5363
author=Blindmind
I'm not trying to make this personal, but why be a moderator of a site full of "terrible games"? It seems a bit counterintuitive. I'm more in alignment with LordBlueRouge's (and others) thoughts - people here deserve to feel good about their work, even if it is terrible. They don't have to maintain such a toxic/self-depricating attitude in order to be motivated to improve.


Nothing I said was toxic or deprecating. I don't even see how you can interpret it that way.

Like I said. All games are terrible. Every single one, without exception. Ocarina of Time is terrible. Chrono Trigger is terrible. Shovel Knight is terrible. Grand Theft Auto 3 is terrible. Final Fantasy 7 is terrible. They all have countless problems! I could spend a solid month talking about the flaws in any one of them.

Those games are world-renowned. You can't seriously expect to be better than all of them.

Quitting game design because your games suck is like quitting a marriage because you have disagreements, or quitting sports because you lose matches, or quitting working out because there are still things you can't lift. That's not indicative a problem with you. That's how it's supposed to work.

To put it succinctly, my point is this: Do not worry when your game sucks. That's normal.
Ciel
an aristocrat of rpgmaker culture
243
i try not to ever trash talk for the sake of itself, there always has to be a legitimate criticism and thoughtfulness behind the sardonicism. i don't like things that are mean-spirited without an underlying noble purpose, and even if something is particularly poor i'd still feel bad about straight roasting it unless the author was objectionable in some way or if the cultural climate surrounding the work in question demanded that approach

it's about using the right tools to advance the overall goal of artistic improvement as a society. sometimes that's constructive feedback aimed directly at a creator, other times it's influencing public opinion/perception to try to steer the medium away from an ineffective school of thought

totally dumpstering something becomes a legitimate and appropriate tool when there's a particular work that has been getting away with being truly awful, and its deleterious aspects have gone overlooked so need to be dramatically illustrated for the sake of public perception, because the creator(s) are disproportionately self-assured and thereby unreachable

this is not such a target. it's like 1 person just trying to make something for a small scale contest. you don't really accomplish anything with a vitriolic approach here

that said, i watched the video and the person basically had nothing substantial to say and never addressed fundamental shortcomings or principles contributing to the game's failure to engage her. either she isn't intellectually equipped to elucidate stuff like that, or was just looking for an easy mark. basically it wasn't very useful, and didn't justify itself as a roast piece by being funny or entertaining. i wouldn't worry too much about what this particular person has to say
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
26530
Okay, LockeZ, I'll have to disagree with you on the point that Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VII (I've never played any of the GTA games) are awful. Having flaws, even myriad flaws /= bad games. All games have flaws, and most have myriad flaws. When the measure of a good game is dependent on it having no flaws, which is fundamentally impossible, there is no way for anything to ever be good, and I think you can see the fallacy in that line of thinking.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
13903
I think I actually agree with LockeZ and just not the way he's presenting his case. Like piano just described, calling a game terrible because it has flaws is fallacious because 'terrible' is a subjective term and not an accurate measure of quality. All he had to do was say "No game is flawless." and nobody would be barking up the tree.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5363
I mean, I think Chrono Trigger is the best game ever made.

But I'm not just saying it has flaws, I'm saying it has so many flaws that I can spend literally hundreds of hours listing and describing them. It would probably take me thirty times as long to detail them all as it would to beat the game.

If you think "terrible" isn't a good word for that, you can label that with whatever terminology you want. But my point is, don't get discouraged when you realize people can very justifiably do the same thing to your games, and probably for even longer.
author=LockeZ
Ocarina of Time is terrible. Chrono Trigger is terrible. Shovel Knight is terrible. Grand Theft Auto 3 is terrible. Final Fantasy 7 is terrible. They all have countless problems! I could spend a solid month talking about the flaws in any one of them.

Those games are world-renowned. You can't seriously expect to be better than all of them.

author=Lockez
If you think "terrible" isn't a good word for that, you can label that with whatever terminology you want. But my point is, don't get discouraged when you realize people can very justifiably do the same thing to your games, and probably for even longer.

If you're deliberately using the word "terrible" you're doing so with the belief that the entirety of the experience is negative. You can't change the definition of a word.

I guess I just have to question your semantics and approach to the discussion. Saying "____ is bad" is far-removed from pointing out flaws or shortcomings. It's not constructive. Sure, I'd agree with Ciel that for a game that may have received undeserved acclaim otherwise, it might be more understandable or justifiable.

But if you're going to insist that RPGMaker/indie games "suck" across the board, most people are going to interpret that as an overall refutation - i.e. a claim that the experiences these games deliver is quite mediocre. That there's nothing to appreciate in playing them. Applying such a sweeping/uninformed generalization not just to RMN, but all of the community, is not only untrue, but yes, it is depreciating and potentially offensive. Just my opinion.
author=LockeZ
Even the best games and the best developers are terrible. Always keep striving to improve, and never fall into the trap of believing you're good enough.

Of course your game fucking sucks. Every game on this website does. If RPG Maker games were any good, then nobody would bother to spend millions of dollars making AAA titles. Don't try to make something good. Just try to make something better than you are now. That's the goal. Improvement. The better you make it, the more people will enjoy it despite the fact that it sucks.

That Lockez was warned for this post is everything wrong with the moderation of this site.

EDIT:

And that's not me debating the merits of what he posted because I couldn't give a shit less whether he's right or wrong; the fact that someone can be warned for stating their opinion is pathetic and the mod responsible should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5363
My mindset, I guess, is that whenever I look at and play those games, I'm imagining a version of them that's so much better, and I'm comparing them to those theoretical games. Before I was a game designer, I used to be able to play games and simply enjoy what they were, but now all I can do is pine for what they could have been. Because I can see those theoretical, vastly better games so much more clearly than I could as a kid. And I want the medium to keep pushing forward until some day it gets there.

Edit: @Sated I don't really need a white knight here, thanks. I'm perfectly capable of escalating this a comical feud by myself. I already warned him for warning me, and then I felt bad, so I warned myself for doing that.
If you think that I'm "white knighting" then you're dumber than your avatar looks.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5363
Time Warner was used for this post.
Cap_H
DIGITAL IDENTITY CRISIS
6615
Piano, your games are alright.
Ciel
everything said

Yeah Ciel has pretty much nailed this on the head. Especially re: inarticulate swearing in an attempt to look edgy. The review in question was awful; it was just fifty different takes on "this fukken sux".

LockeZ
words

There is a yawning chasm between what terrible means and the quality on display in the games you listed. It's not a matter of semantics, either, and you know it.

Something being imperfect (even in a thousand numerous ways) doesn't make that thing terrible. Most things (especially interactive things) are more than the sum of their parts. If you 'fixed' the problems you found in Chrono Trigger there is literally no guarantee that the overall effect it has on its player will be improved. Quirks and mistakes are often what make a good game good.

Seriously, the argument is so stupid that I don't know where to begin. If you can't appreciate something without shouting to the heavens for a hundred hours about how it could be marginally better (if only they'd have asked you for your precious opinions!!!!) you should get a new hobby. The underlying message of "always strive to be better" is nice and all, but the most popular past time in the world is literally "kick a ball around". Sometimes all you can strive for is "why is this so fun?".

Didn't deserve a warn, though.
author=LockeZ
Even the best games and the best developers are terrible. Always keep striving to improve, and never fall into the trap of believing you're good enough.

Of course your game fucking sucks. Every game on this website does. If RPG Maker games were any good, then nobody would bother to spend millions of dollars making AAA titles. Don't try to make something good. Just try to make something better than you are now. That's the goal. Improvement. The better you make it, the more people will enjoy it despite the fact that it sucks.


totally dumpstering something becomes a legitimate and appropriate tool when there's a particular work that has been getting away with being truly awful, and its deleterious aspects have gone overlooked so need to be dramatically illustrated for the sake of public perception, because the creator(s) are disproportionately self-assured and thereby unreachable

I decide if I think that someone's work has gotten away with being truly awful, and that its deleterious aspects have gone overlooked and thus need to be dramatically illustrated for the sake of public perception, because the creator(s) are disproportionately self-assured and thereby unreachable.

Of course, when I do that better than y'all ever could wish to, I'm censored from doing so.

If you're too dumb to see the sarcasm/irony then fuck you :)
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
13903
Oh, this thread is going fun places.

Sated, the only problem I've ever had with you is NOT that you're brutally honest; it's actually what your user title describes: puking up frothing vitriolic sarcastic spittle. You always present your arguments in the nastiest way possible, and then dismiss it as "telling it like it is." You complain about censorship, but your problem is and has always been a complete lack of tact. It's the same reason LockeZ was warned for that post. He wasn't warned for expressing his opinion, but because he expressed it like an asshole.

You may believe others aren't deserving of your respect, but what goes around comes around and you never stop being surprised.
Who else deleted ~3/4 of their output because they thought it wasn't good enough? Tact has little to do with it.

If you really think I don't follow the standards I preach then fuck you, I've done enough to demonstrate that I do.

I don't even dislike you, but fuck you if you actually believe that I don't practice what I preach.