IMPROVING BASIC ATTACK AND GUARD FUNCTIONALITY

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It's funny, because when it comes to making Resurrection of the Necromancer I had exactly the same thoughts. So I decided to add AP that you only gain when you attack, AP can be used to buy buy skills and upgrade a characters weapon. I also decided to make MP healing items very very scarce to when you guard you recover MP.
u know whats better than guard? runic
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15170
please go back a page and read crystalgate's post everybody

pyramid: you get money when you attack huh? also what's the point in making shit scarce if you have an unlimited-but-boring way of getting mp lol

bicfarmer
u know whats better than guard? runic


TRUTH
Because no one uses defend anymore. So I'm just trying to get folks to use the defend command, it's like the curative items in Dragon's Dogma. You hardly ever use them, but they're there if you need to get out of a tight spot. And yeah, I guess it is like a second currency. I also forgot to mention that whenever a character attacks there's a chance they'll attack twice, or thrice. I wanted to put my two pence forward because in most RPG games when you gain skills you never use the attack command, and that genuinely keeps me up at night.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Crystalgate
When it comes to the attack command, I'm in the opinion that it's not about making it useful, rather it's about not obsoleting it in the first place. I think that for a lot of games it's useful to remove it altogether, but not having it left in but obsoleted.

When the attack command is obsoleted, that's because the characters have other skills available which are both stronger than the attack command and spamable. However, if that happens, you have actually made something worse than attack spam. Now the player spams something else, but that something else is less convenient. The attack command is typically free and fastest to use. A player spamming "Crosscut" instead of attack has to do more menu navigating and occasionally even more menuing to deal with the SP/MP cost, assuming the skill has a price. So you have a system that is equally boring, but more annoying to use than attack spam. Ideally, the characters should not spam the same command over and over, but if there is spamming, it's best it's attack since that one is the most convenient to use.


I agree with this. The menu tedium would be mitigated if you implement a Phantasy Star 4 Macro system to save previous commands, but I get the idea. Hence the topic's intent of brainstorming system-level mechanics exclusive to basic attacks.

Crystalgate
One game that made defending useful is Seventh Saga. In that game, defending not only halves damage, but also makes your attack 1.5 times as strong the next turn, which coupled with a subtractive defense system means you usually do about twice the damage. However, that combo was so powerful it became the default strategy for physical attackers when facing hard enemies. Defend -> Attack -> Defend -> Attack -> Defend -> Attack and so on.


I really like this idea. To expand on it, perhaps different characters gain a different buff when defending. Warrior-type characters would gain the boost to attack, thief types would gain a counter attack, mages would reflect magic attacks back at opponents, tanks would protect allies with low HP, etc.


Link_2112
Normal attack could have a sort of quicktimey, free flow action RPG button press system to it. That would make it really fun.


Sounds similar to the addition system in Legend of Dragoon, just not as linear. Are you thinking of something akin to Yanfly's Chain Skills script for Ace?


Pyramid_Head
It's funny, because when it comes to making Resurrection of the Necromancer I had exactly the same thoughts. So I decided to add AP that you only gain when you attack, AP can be used to buy buy skills and upgrade a characters weapon. I also decided to make MP healing items very very scarce to when you guard you recover MP.


Hm. Basic attacks as a farming tool like this sounds rather tedious. If that's the only way to gain AP, then players are encouraged to just sit there mashing attack all day. You could discourage players from spamming attack by gaining SP only on the killing blow like a Devour skill in Digital Devil Saga, but even with that multiple hit chance, that feels a bit tedious.

Your reasoning for using defend just to recover MP feels like treating a symptom rather than addressing the underlying problem of nobody using the command in the first place. If nobody is defending, then the problem lies with the lack of necessity for the command at all. Adding a requirement to restore MP will just make battles drag on longer if there is no other reason to use it at all.
Well when you word it like that. fortunately I've not implemented it yet, it's just on paper at the moment. Do you have any ideas on how I could make battles less tedious?
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
That's a really, really broad question. I don't know the mechanics of your battle system, so I can't give you too specific of an answer. However, if you're looking to keep the basic attack and guard commands from becoming obsolete, there are already a few good suggestions in this thread to try out.

If nobody is guarding, then that should tell you its primary function of reducing damage is unnecessary since your party isn't suffering much damage in the first place. That's a problem with your enemy design, not with the guard function. Make players need to guard first, then think about what else you want to happen while that character is defending. From there, you should get an idea of what tweaks you want to add.

If AP is used to upgrade character skills and weapons, then you need to make your players gain an understanding of those skills and weapons to help them decide what they want upgraded. Reward players AP for playing well, not for mashing a basic attack. Critical hits, striking weaknesses, and successfully blocking attacks are a few ways that come to mind. If you think you can implement basic attacks in such a way that awards AP for doing well, then great, but by itself, attacks + AP = tedious grinding.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
author=Pyramid_Head
Because no one uses defend anymore. So I'm just trying to get folks to use the defend command, it's like the curative items in Dragon's Dogma. You hardly ever use them, but they're there if you need to get out of a tight spot. And yeah, I guess it is like a second currency. I also forgot to mention that whenever a character attacks there's a chance they'll attack twice, or thrice. I wanted to put my two pence forward because in most RPG games when you gain skills you never use the attack command, and that genuinely keeps me up at night.


That's because of two things.
1) You make skills that entirely eclipse the basic attack, and
2) You don't manage the MP economy of your game worth a damn.

Everything you're telling me indicates that your game should be resourceless: there's no thought put into the pressure put on players, the cost of skills in turns and in mana, or anything besides. It really sounds like your game has absolutely no decision-making to be made about whether or not to spend MP, when to defend to survive, and so on.

Just scrap your casting resource, your defend command, and your basic attack, and force players to decide which skill is the least awful to use turn-by-turn. "Alright, I'll set up this buff for next turn. Okay, it's the next turn now, but my other unit is asleep and in danger of dying. Do I heal them and waste my buff, or nuke and hope they survive?" Start from there and work with more when you're more experienced as a developer.
In my game, the main tank gains substitute and counterattack from guarding. He guards A LOT.

Most of my characters have really low MP (so far), so attacking is often a good option. Late game (if I ever get there) it might be a different story. Except for my mage... her attack is beyond useless, but after reading this thread I think I should change that.. make her gain a bit of MP or something.
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