[RMMV] [RMVX ACE] OKAY, LET'S HAVE THIS DISCUSSION: SAMPLE MAPS

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JosephSeraph
奇跡なゲイパワー♡
7031
Just reviving this thread because I'm shocked at how unanimous the site's denizens opinions towards sample maps are and I feel personally attacked and almost want to make a sample map-only game myself.

People should have the artistic freedom to use sample maps as they wish and it's not inherently lazy as much as it is lazy to use the default animations, in fact one interesting aspect of using sample maps that no one mentioned here but is extremely valid is that you get to experience a reverse design process that's quite unique to using premade maps -- you get the maps and the game you want the player to experience, and the design is how you're going to convey that through the sample maps, which is entirely legitimate and can be done in thoughtful ways.

And that's even ignoring the aesthetic and lore aspects of treating sample maps as actual meta-locations within the rpg maker universe.

So really, chill y'all, do your games, and a sample-map laden game should be played before you judge it, it's okay to not want to waste your time on a game that looks default, that's your preference -- but it's not okay to attack it without having played it or disregard it specifically because of that.

that being said, the site's ban of sample maps and other default stuff as the first 3 screens is completely sensible and has legitimate reasons for existing.

Oh yeah, and also no one dictates what sample maps exist for. You bought them and they exist to help you make games -- how they're going to help you clearly is defined by the creators themselves.
Corfaisus
Unallocated Skill Points
5395
Okay, Let's Have This Discussion: RTP

I busted my ass to do things my way with these resources and shame on anyone who goes into this thinking "oh poo on you" just because I've gone through and rearranged, recolored, spliced, made panoramic scenes out of, and learned the ins and outs of RTP. I've put in the time and have learned quite a bit. What was my purpose in doing this? To prove it could be done. You know where that's gotten me? A few bucks richer and literally front page RPG Maker 2000... and I'm still learning, still practicing and still producing. Every prospective buyer sees my work before they even click "Add to Cart". I didn't give up after 1,000 maps or 10,000 hours or 10 failed projects or whatever other bullshit excuse you're giving yourself to fall back on copy/pasting someone else's baby tools for babies and parade it around as equal to my work. I never stopped trying and shame on you for doing so! Keep working! Do better! Push farther!

I, too, pull my hair out over writing my stories and balancing battles and making the most of what this program can accomplish. I neglect nothing, but my specialty is mapping. I've never tasted success more than one four star review on a side project, but that's not my prize and that's not the end goal. Both of these are when I finish and release my dream to the public. After that, who knows, but this is me and this is what I work for. What are you striving for? What is your dream?

Years, YEARS I've listened to people say that RTP is lazy. These same people prided themselves on using rips from SNES games. You know where those games are? Obscure and two clicks away from getting wiped off the web for copyright infringement. "I downloaded these bitmaps off geocities in 2002" does not equal effort. Sick misao, buddy; may it keep you warm in no man's land. If I wanted to learn how Final Fantasy 6 used its graphics and replicate Final Fantasy 6 and call it something stupid like "Rebellion: A Ronultinian's Duty" (see? I made a custom name to info dump), it might look good in the Screenshot Thread, but people will pretty quickly (and justifiably so) look at it and think "haven't I played this exact game before?" I've had to muscle past what everyone else is doing to find my own flavor. Let them come after me if they want, but so long as I keep striving, I'll remain different. Take the lump of clay that is you and turn it into the shape you want it to be!

Keep using sample maps and you'll never have your own flavor... and in the end, that's worse than being lazy. Lazy affects you in the moment, but not speaking your mind - not doing you - will haunt you forever. Fuck the noise of regret!

I've been in this mess for almost as long as you have, and you know what? I don't mak excuses, I - mak - gams.

*mic*
EDITED(Ok I will have my say on this) Sample maps are like any premade asset. They take work out of gamedev.
Things I would classify the same would be.
Code, Plugins, Graphics, 3D models, Music.
Some people need to use these things because they don't have the time due to life being busy, and some people need to use these things because they don't have the skills. I use a little bit of premade code on occasion and all my music is made by someone else.
I see premade maps as no different. the problem with using premade assets is that you run the risk of your game looking unprofessional(and I mean unprofessional on an indie level) and that can mean less people playing your game.
Often using premade assets can make gamedev much easier but you need to edit the premade assets and put your own personality into them. I would see premade maps no differently. If you just dump a few premade maps together and make no alterations then that is lazy.
Frogge
"nothing can beat the power of gay"?
8431
Corf your entire arguement seems like it’s in support of sample maps and then you suddenly switch to saying you aren’t I’m confused dmlrnsjkanfja

(Not that I particularly agree or disagree with what you’ve said)

Anyway I’m just gonna tl;dr repeat what I said last time and bring up that your game loses part of its identity when you have to explore maps you’ve already explored a gazillion times.
author=Frogge
your game loses part of its identity when you have to explore maps you’ve already explored a gazillion times.


This is also true of pretty much any premade asset. Your game loses its identity when you are using the same graphics as other games you have played before.
Your game loses its identity when you are using the same music as other games you have played before.
In most cases a person would not notice the same code used again with the possible exception of menus.
Using any premade assets puts you in a dangerous position of people not wanting to play your game. This is a gamble you have to decide on being worth the time/effort needed to make the assets in question. I myself am rather crap at making music if I forced myself to make my own music my game might never get finished, is that a risk I want to take or do I just take the easy way out and use other peoples music?
Maps are generally the easiest thing to make when it comes to gamedeving so I would say it is the most questionable thing to use a premade asset for, but I would never tell a person they have to make original maps, just that I might not play it :P
JosephSeraph
奇跡なゲイパワー♡
7031
author=grindalf
Some people need to use these things because they don't have the time due to life being busy, and some people need to use these things because they don't have the skills.

A third and equally as important example would be people using premade assets due to an exclusively creative choice, which is valid.

author=Frogge
Anyway I’m just gonna tl;dr repeat what I said last time and bring up that your game loses part of its identity when you have to explore maps you’ve already explored a gazillion times.

Agreed but that can be accounted for and deliberate, not to mention making that premade location belong is an exciting and interesting thing in itself.

Actually I don't think your game "loses" identity, its identity just needs work to be solid. Craze's awesome RTP games for instance. They're very distinctly RTP and they're still very distinctly Craze. And that's coming from jo, a guy who is a 100% custom asset freak lol

But yeah, default maps are still an identity, it just may not be the identity you want to convey what you want to convey, and in fact in most cases it won't be -- you can still deliberately put effort to make it work and base your game's identity on the concept of using stock maps, though.

DONT CRUCIFY PEOPLE FOR USING PREMADE ASSETS BUT ITS TOTALLY COOL IF YOU MAKE CUSTOM STUFF YOURSELF EVERYBODY IS COOL LET'S JUST ALL GET CREATIVE AND REMEMBER: GREEN IS NOT A CREATIVE COLOR
I've never seen an RPGmaker sample map before. If someone used one I'd never even know.
author=JosephSeraph
DONT CRUCIFY PEOPLE FOR USING PREMADE ASSETS BUT ITS TOTALLY COOL IF YOU MAKE CUSTOM STUFF YOURSELF EVERYBODY IS COOL LET'S JUST ALL GET CREATIVE AND REMEMBER: GREEN IS NOT A CREATIVE COLOR


And if you still can't, well, there's literally 50 million artists on Twitter looking for work. Commission them for those assets and help them out!
Frogge
"nothing can beat the power of gay"?
8431
author=Link_2112
I've never seen an RPGmaker sample map before. If someone used one I'd never even know.


You probably have without realizing. I highly doubt it’s possible to be an active part of the rm community without having seen most sample maps at least once.
I'm not as active as I used to be but I typically steer clear of RTP games, so I'd be willing to put money on it, bro frog.
Frogge
"nothing can beat the power of gay"?
8431
You’ve probably seen screenshots, then. I’d put money you HAVE >:(
So I have something kind of terrible to confess which is that I have a really bad anxiety disorder (that's not terrible in itself) so after I posted my rant here (I'm also super-opinionated, does not pair well with crippling anxiety, would not recommend) I immediately went "ohhh shit im gonna get some hate for this" and proceeded to hide from this thread for several months. (To be fair, I mean, I also had shit to do, it's not like I was cowering in the corner of an empty room with nothing but a computer tuned to RMN and four walls.)

ANYWAY, since I am STILL too afraid to look at the first salvo of posts after my OP because I came off super-defensive and I imagine that prompted a lot of people to get very aggressive. I had a really traumatic New Year and I'm trying to sort of rest and recuperate my emotional health as best I can. What was the consensus here (if any)? If it's summed up by JosephSeraph's latest post, I'm good with that.

BUT is it okay to use sample maps if you're doing so because you're a veteran who doesn't like mapping (or is just plain burnt out on it) and prefer to focus on all the other aspects of your game, or is it never acceptable and will prevent your game from being taken seriously/played at all?
JosephSeraph
奇跡なゲイパワー♡
7031
Hmm, considering this is a gamedev community we're talking about, and a RPG Maker one nonetheless, I don't think you're gonna get a consensus, someone will vehemently, intensely and burningly disagree with your way of doing things, and that's fine.

Just... Do what you believe in! As long as you make it sincerely and put effort on it it'll have value. And you can PM me and I'll make sure to try to play it and give it a honest review -; although I for one ALSO have an anxiety disorder and for the same reason haven't logged in for months or checked my inbox like i do with every forum basically.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
author=StormCrow
BUT is it okay to use sample maps if you're doing so because you're a veteran who doesn't like mapping (or is just plain burnt out on it) and prefer to focus on all the other aspects of your game, or is it never acceptable and will prevent your game from being taken seriously/played at all?


I don't see the harm in using sample maps for stuff like internal testing, super small-scale projects, or if you're building something within the project file where exploration isn't really a key element. But if you're a veteran who has made something on a grander scale and then you're trying to bill Eric_On_Sample_Town1.exe as your frontrunner project then yeah, people are going to say something.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4300
lmao don't cherry pick just Jo's answer because it suits you because the consensus is a big fat NO
like he said he didn't read the comments I imagine that means he only read this page. That's not cherry picking
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4300
author=grindalf
like he said he didn't read the comments I imagine that means he only read this page. That's not cherry picking
Yeah, it kinda is since those other comments do exist and she is choosing not to read them.
JosephSeraph
奇跡なゲイパワー♡
7031
she did mention she suffers from an anxiety disorder and these, uh, passionate replies are decidedly something that can affect someone with such a condition

i still don't understand why people feel so strongly about these things, it's not like someone made a game with sample maps, put it on steam and hijacked your credit card to force you to buy it

"do you think people should dye their hair blue"
"no"
*dyes my hair blue anyway*
"HOW DARE YOU"
Frogge
"nothing can beat the power of gay"?
8431
Could we maybe not be jerks about it at least? I mean she acknowledges that she came across as defensive, which isn’t as good as an apology, but I think StormCrow’s at least not worth shouting at rudely anymore. The consensus might be no, but accusations of cherry picking are a bit insensitive at this point when she said that she was interested in the consensus but was too afraid to read past jo’s comment.

Just a simple “while Jo makes a valid point, the general consensus is a no” would have sufficed.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4300
author=Frogge
but accusations of cherry picking are a bit insensitive at
Here's the thing, it's not an accusation, that's literally what it is.

If y'all want to see it as insensitive then that's fine, I don't care. The fact is she has her answers on the first page. So, yeah, I'm not gonna sugar coat it.
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