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KILLING PEOPLE, FALLING IN LOVE, AND SAVING THE WORLD...AT 17???
Posts
StormCrow
2877
StormCrow
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CloseThe bog standard for Japanese RPGs is to have very, very young protagonists and I have never fully understood why. There's probably a facile and dismissive response about the Japanese being perverts to be made, but I am just enough of a weeb to wonder if maybe there's a deeper insight into the collective Japanese psyche to be found here?
Here are some character ages in some well known JRPGs by Squaresoft:
My question is not what the fuck, but my question is...WHY? What is it about young teenagers or even tweens that is so compelling to Japanese storytellers that they're the default protagonists of RPGs and anime from that country? And keep in mind these are always stories dealing (clumsily or not) with some HEAVY themes: WAR, including taking human lives, fate, destiny, duty, SELF SACRIFICE, TRUE LOVE, and SAVING THE GODDAMNED WORLD, all things that a real life seventeen year old is very much unequipped to mentally or emotionally handle.
Ironically, when I started doing RPG Maker I was just a teenager. I made games and wrote characters that were adults because when I was a teenager I had no interest in writing about teenagers. Also I felt like I was bucking a BAFFLING trend. Now that I'm 30, I've found myself much more interested in writing about teenagers. But nothing has been weirder than to watch characters I've written go from being around 8 years older than me to around 8 years younger than me as I've aged! (In some cases, I even retconned the age of major characters from my earlier games to be a bit older just so I could feel a little bit less old. Well, and to be fair, also because I'd learned a bit about the world and realized, no, you couldn't realistically have that many degrees at the age of 23 no matter how brilliant you were.)
(Someone might want to move this to Videogames. I honestly don't know where it belongs better, there or here.)
Here are some character ages in some well known JRPGs by Squaresoft:
- Final Fantasy VI - Locke Cole is 25 y.o. whereas Terra Branford is only 18 y.o. (I don't know if that's creepy or not, I didn't get far enough in VI to see if their romance goes anywhere; in any case, 7 years is a much bigger difference between an 18 y.o. and a 25 y.o. than say between a 25 y.o. and a 32 y.o.)
- Final Fantasy VI - Gau is 13 y.o. but as he's essentially the same character as the Feral Child from "Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior" he's kind of a special case.
- Final Fantasy VI - Celes Chere is a GENERAL at age 18!?!?!? Also unrelated but is it me or is Beatrix from FFIX essentially the exact same character as Celes from FFVI?
- Final Fantasy VI - Relm Arrowny - 10 y.o.!?!?!?
- Final Fantasy VII - Yuffie - 16 y.o.
- Final Fantasy VIII - Squall Leonheart - 17 y.o. (is inexplicably handed command of an elite paramilitary force by a 40 y.o. Cid Kramer!!!!)
- Final Fantasy VIII - Rinoa Heartilly. Primary romantic love interest at 17 y.o.. FF8 is undeniably a game about minors fucking.
- Final Fantasy VIII - Selphie, Zell, Irvine, and Seifer all also 17 y.o.
- Final Fantasy VIII - Quistis Trepe - SOMEHOW IS MOST OF THE OTHER CHARACTERS' TEACHER IN SPITE OF BEING (wait for it) 18 y.o. and a year older than the class she is teaching at most. WHAT.
- Final Fantasy IX - Zidane and Garnet are 16 y.o. I don't recall but I believe they also have a romantic subtext, correct me if I'm wrong.
- Final Fantasy IX - Vivi appears 9, but is actually only five to six months old! Obviously he's a special case as he's essentially a magical bioweapon.
- Final Fantasy X - The main protagonist and ostensibly the main love interest, Tidus and Yuna, are 17 y.o.
- Final Fantasy X - Rikku 15 y.o.!!!
My question is not what the fuck, but my question is...WHY? What is it about young teenagers or even tweens that is so compelling to Japanese storytellers that they're the default protagonists of RPGs and anime from that country? And keep in mind these are always stories dealing (clumsily or not) with some HEAVY themes: WAR, including taking human lives, fate, destiny, duty, SELF SACRIFICE, TRUE LOVE, and SAVING THE GODDAMNED WORLD, all things that a real life seventeen year old is very much unequipped to mentally or emotionally handle.
Ironically, when I started doing RPG Maker I was just a teenager. I made games and wrote characters that were adults because when I was a teenager I had no interest in writing about teenagers. Also I felt like I was bucking a BAFFLING trend. Now that I'm 30, I've found myself much more interested in writing about teenagers. But nothing has been weirder than to watch characters I've written go from being around 8 years older than me to around 8 years younger than me as I've aged! (In some cases, I even retconned the age of major characters from my earlier games to be a bit older just so I could feel a little bit less old. Well, and to be fair, also because I'd learned a bit about the world and realized, no, you couldn't realistically have that many degrees at the age of 23 no matter how brilliant you were.)
(Someone might want to move this to Videogames. I honestly don't know where it belongs better, there or here.)
Darken
3952
To be fair a lot of WW2 veterans were 18 years old when they were enlisted (Although the average age I think is 20-25). So it's really not a stretch when considering young adults to be in heavy situations. Not that it makes it more acceptable or anything. You can probably find decent reasoning as to why 16 is too young of an age to even start driving in our current era. I also think 20 as this magical cut off point is something often exaggerated in our culture. There are people in their 20s that have not gone through enough experience to maturely handle complicated scenarios, same can go for 40+ year olds. *TOTALLY NOT A DIG AT THE CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE*
But specific to FF8, its entire concept from the start was combining school with war. The story provides a lot of effective commentary on why it's not a good idea to send young people into worldly political situations. Almost every plot point in disc 1 is pushed forward by typical character youth mistakes (Seifer being too overconfident in Dollet, Zell revealing information about Garden through Seifer's taunting, Seifer being seduced by the dark side with the sorceress literally calling him a little boy,Rinoa potentially screwing up the mission because of her rebelliousness against her father, Irvine not being able to make the shot due to the knowledge about who took care of them etc.). These are flaws that might not have happened had these characters grew up and not done these things for the first time.
Consider also that a lot of students of Garden are likely war orphans (as of the entire main cast except Rinoa) and that Garden as an organization goes through a lot of 'ends justify the means' ordeals in order to kill the Sorceress. Squall essentially has some sort of PTSD syndrome when it comes to focusing all of his efforts on becoming SEED and neglecting compassion. I think there's also something about the lore in it being easier to junction the younger you are? Regarding Quistis, I really don't get why a child prodigy who rose to the ranks to be able to teach their contemporaries is really that crazy. There are tons of child prodigies in real life that can achieve advancements in education, though interestingly according to this: rarely does a child prodigy become an adult genius. But then, keep in mind Quistis got demoted from being a teacher due to her lack of leadership qualities, which actually kind of sells that aspect even more.
Now I'm not saying every anime and RPG can get away with it "because well it's secretly Starship Troopers (movie) or Lord of the Flies commentary". But I think FF8 demonstrates a lot of specific details that actually do justify the age groups and why characters are written the way they are. The main issue I think is visually the sending children into wars they're not mature enough to be in wasn't emphasized enough. But at the same time Square probably wanted to emphasize the school uniform aesthetic and the interesting contrast portrayed when you put it in the backdrop of war. Overall the messaging to a lot of things is that: no one is truly ready for anything but is that an excuse to not try?
But specific to FF8, its entire concept from the start was combining school with war. The story provides a lot of effective commentary on why it's not a good idea to send young people into worldly political situations. Almost every plot point in disc 1 is pushed forward by typical character youth mistakes (Seifer being too overconfident in Dollet, Zell revealing information about Garden through Seifer's taunting, Seifer being seduced by the dark side with the sorceress literally calling him a little boy,Rinoa potentially screwing up the mission because of her rebelliousness against her father, Irvine not being able to make the shot due to the knowledge about who took care of them etc.). These are flaws that might not have happened had these characters grew up and not done these things for the first time.
Consider also that a lot of students of Garden are likely war orphans (as of the entire main cast except Rinoa) and that Garden as an organization goes through a lot of 'ends justify the means' ordeals in order to kill the Sorceress. Squall essentially has some sort of PTSD syndrome when it comes to focusing all of his efforts on becoming SEED and neglecting compassion. I think there's also something about the lore in it being easier to junction the younger you are? Regarding Quistis, I really don't get why a child prodigy who rose to the ranks to be able to teach their contemporaries is really that crazy. There are tons of child prodigies in real life that can achieve advancements in education, though interestingly according to this: rarely does a child prodigy become an adult genius. But then, keep in mind Quistis got demoted from being a teacher due to her lack of leadership qualities, which actually kind of sells that aspect even more.
Now I'm not saying every anime and RPG can get away with it "because well it's secretly Starship Troopers (movie) or Lord of the Flies commentary". But I think FF8 demonstrates a lot of specific details that actually do justify the age groups and why characters are written the way they are. The main issue I think is visually the sending children into wars they're not mature enough to be in wasn't emphasized enough. But at the same time Square probably wanted to emphasize the school uniform aesthetic and the interesting contrast portrayed when you put it in the backdrop of war. Overall the messaging to a lot of things is that: no one is truly ready for anything but is that an excuse to not try?
Marketing.
13-25 year olds are the target audience for most video games, particularly during the late 90s/early 2000s when JRPGs were still frontrunner games if we're going by the examples provided in the OP.
Players generally desire characters that are relatable to them in age.
And that sells units.
And that pleases shareholders.
That's pretty much it.
13-25 year olds are the target audience for most video games, particularly during the late 90s/early 2000s when JRPGs were still frontrunner games if we're going by the examples provided in the OP.
Players generally desire characters that are relatable to them in age.
And that sells units.
And that pleases shareholders.
That's pretty much it.
You don't get hooked at 12-14 on old characters. You need that 16yo hero you would like to be irl.
At 25 you're already familiar with Final Fantasy and you have managed to develop nostalgic feelings for it.
At 25 you're already familiar with Final Fantasy and you have managed to develop nostalgic feelings for it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
then you have FF4 where two of the main characters are five years old and one is seven years old
But I mean, I don't think 12 year olds play action adventure games to get the experience of being 12 years old. The fantasy if you're a kid is to become an adult. Not an older adult, but still an adult. 12 year olds want to be Cloud Strife, not Ash Ketchum.
Part of the issue with Japanese works though is that age 15 is generally considered an adult in Japan, culturally speaking. So if you have characters who are 15-17, they very much qualify for this phenomenon. They're young enough to still be relatable to a younger audience, but old enough for that younger audience to still perceive them as adults who would be qualified to take on the world.
But I mean, I don't think 12 year olds play action adventure games to get the experience of being 12 years old. The fantasy if you're a kid is to become an adult. Not an older adult, but still an adult. 12 year olds want to be Cloud Strife, not Ash Ketchum.
Part of the issue with Japanese works though is that age 15 is generally considered an adult in Japan, culturally speaking. So if you have characters who are 15-17, they very much qualify for this phenomenon. They're young enough to still be relatable to a younger audience, but old enough for that younger audience to still perceive them as adults who would be qualified to take on the world.
Shinan
4314
There's some comment or joke I could make about how teens think everything is the end of the world and are falling in and out of love on a weekly basis. But I'm not clever enough for it.
Maybe all the Final Fantasies are about kids going around pretending to save the world. It is a game within a game. (and in that game they are all 10-12 year olds because those always wish they were old 16-18 year old badasses. Or am I projecting my own experiences?)
Maybe all the Final Fantasies are about kids going around pretending to save the world. It is a game within a game. (and in that game they are all 10-12 year olds because those always wish they were old 16-18 year old badasses. Or am I projecting my own experiences?)
(Deleting content for some remarks about stuff that's sorta distrubing)
User was warned for this post
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
TBH in Japan, the high school years are considered the only years you have any kind of freedom: after that, it's assumed you're buckling down and either getting yourself into a job or going to college, both of which are expected to take up all your time and attention. Or, if you're a ladytype, you're gonna get married and pop out babies.
So there's an expectation that once you leave your teen years, you'll be devoting all your time and attention to either a job or a family.
I'll note that the expectation of job time extends past the usual working hours: you're expected to also hang out with your coworkers drinking afterward, and you're usually expected to be on-call. So literally your life is gonna be your job or your family once you're in the adult world, leaving no time for hijinks of any sort.
This extends to fantasy and sci-fi settings because it's just an inculcated attitude: too many people would have trouble with the idea of a protag who's an adult NOT feeling the crushing weight of responsibility shackling them down and preventing them from doing whatever.
So there's an expectation that once you leave your teen years, you'll be devoting all your time and attention to either a job or a family.
I'll note that the expectation of job time extends past the usual working hours: you're expected to also hang out with your coworkers drinking afterward, and you're usually expected to be on-call. So literally your life is gonna be your job or your family once you're in the adult world, leaving no time for hijinks of any sort.
This extends to fantasy and sci-fi settings because it's just an inculcated attitude: too many people would have trouble with the idea of a protag who's an adult NOT feeling the crushing weight of responsibility shackling them down and preventing them from doing whatever.
Also, typically teen years are when you're most likely to go out and explore yourself and the world. It's when you're still innocent and naive enough to believe in the better things in life while still able to hold your own. You're starting to become reliable, to learn responsibility, to understand the world around you and that works wonders for introducing a PLAYER to a world.
A teen shouldn't know about the incredible Sage of History or who the main political players in a kingdom two countries over are. They don't know about the dreaded sky pirate Brenan or how to slay monsters in a single strike. They're still learning and growing and they're going to make dumb mistakes (like trusting that one Chancellor who seemed just a bit sketchy but was otherwise a top-notch bloke). Who in their right mind would believe a story where a 42 year old was so naive as to just hand over a mystical crystal of ultimate power to that sketchy guy in a banana suit who told them about it in the first place?
So, yeah, all of what the others said but also because it usually fits the narrative AND helps the player be eased in to a new setting without raising questions about how incredibly dumb their main characters are that they didn't see that one coming. You can forgive a 17 year old for trusting some old coot who said he could see their future. It's a lot harder to buy into a 40 year old doing so, though.
A teen shouldn't know about the incredible Sage of History or who the main political players in a kingdom two countries over are. They don't know about the dreaded sky pirate Brenan or how to slay monsters in a single strike. They're still learning and growing and they're going to make dumb mistakes (like trusting that one Chancellor who seemed just a bit sketchy but was otherwise a top-notch bloke). Who in their right mind would believe a story where a 42 year old was so naive as to just hand over a mystical crystal of ultimate power to that sketchy guy in a banana suit who told them about it in the first place?
So, yeah, all of what the others said but also because it usually fits the narrative AND helps the player be eased in to a new setting without raising questions about how incredibly dumb their main characters are that they didn't see that one coming. You can forgive a 17 year old for trusting some old coot who said he could see their future. It's a lot harder to buy into a 40 year old doing so, though.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Liberty
Who in their right mind would believe a story where a 42 year old was so naive as to just hand over a mystical crystal of ultimate power to that sketchy guy in a banana suit who told them about it in the first place?
I dunno, man, I know some really dumb 40 year olds.
Also there's a lot of ground between 17 and 40 just sayin
Yeah, but just using that as an example. Most games that have the grizzled 40 year old is someone who's been around the block a few times and knows what's what. Even a 25 year old is expected to be competent in their own little bubble and know a bit of what's going on in the world.
If you were dropped into the lap of a 25 year old who had no idea of how to do any kind of thing or know anything about the world (unless they've been dropped into an unknown world like the player is or has amnesia a la slave crown) it would be like ...eh, this MC is a dumbass. There's usually a less likeable aspect to their character (they're lazy and have never had a job before, they are idiots who never bothered to listen to anything anyone ever said about anywhere/thing/body... that kind of thing) in that case and that can make you kinda meh about them since society has taught us that we should begoodlittledrones responsible and stand-up people who have their shit together (even when we don't).
You're far more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to some tween not knowing that Mr Muscles is the ruler of the next town over than someone who is technically an adult and should know at least that much (barring aforementioned circumstances).
And, of course, JOURNEY TO PROVE ONESELF AS A RESPONSIBLE MEMBER OF SOCIETY TM and SHOWING HOW DUMB TEEN MAKES GOOD ON THEIR DUMBASSNESS TO BECOME A RELIABLE ADULT TM are usually more acceptable than GOOD FOR NOTHING ADULT FINALLY GETS A FUCKING CLUE TM as a story base. XD
Besides, who can ignore the allure of being able to turn back time and be an awkward teen again and flirt with cuties and make something awesome of their lives instead of just going through schooling and getting a 9-5 and living out a rather normal existence or something?
BRING ON THE TWEENS!
If you were dropped into the lap of a 25 year old who had no idea of how to do any kind of thing or know anything about the world (unless they've been dropped into an unknown world like the player is or has amnesia a la slave crown) it would be like ...eh, this MC is a dumbass. There's usually a less likeable aspect to their character (they're lazy and have never had a job before, they are idiots who never bothered to listen to anything anyone ever said about anywhere/thing/body... that kind of thing) in that case and that can make you kinda meh about them since society has taught us that we should be
You're far more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to some tween not knowing that Mr Muscles is the ruler of the next town over than someone who is technically an adult and should know at least that much (barring aforementioned circumstances).
And, of course, JOURNEY TO PROVE ONESELF AS A RESPONSIBLE MEMBER OF SOCIETY TM and SHOWING HOW DUMB TEEN MAKES GOOD ON THEIR DUMBASSNESS TO BECOME A RELIABLE ADULT TM are usually more acceptable than GOOD FOR NOTHING ADULT FINALLY GETS A FUCKING CLUE TM as a story base. XD
Besides, who can ignore the allure of being able to turn back time and be an awkward teen again and flirt with cuties and make something awesome of their lives instead of just going through schooling and getting a 9-5 and living out a rather normal existence or something?
BRING ON THE TWEENS!
The age of Majority in Taiwan is 20, with an age of consent being 16.
Taiwanese men also need to do mandatory military service for 4 months.
Shinan
4314
An aside, not about jrpgs but in A Song of Ice and Fire the oldest Stark child (Robb Stark) is 14 when the books start, by the time he's king of the north he's not even 16.
I know those kids mostly fail at saving the world but still.
I know those kids mostly fail at saving the world but still.
I never minded the old "kids save the world!" shtick of a lot of RPGs. To me, it can instill the feeling of being a kid again and the seeing the world with fresh eyes. It's sort of cathartic to experience the kinds of adventures you dreamt up when you were 12 through the eyes of youth.
On top of that, there's a timelessness to the coming of age tale that allows it to repackaged so many times. As an example, I did not grow up with studio Ghibli films and have only recently started watching them. So I saw Kiki's Delivery Service a few months ago in my mid-twenties and I found myself really enjoying it, and I think it's due to how relatable a coming of age story can be and the sort of memories it can stir up like a lot of firsts and key moments that a lot of people went through at that age. Everyone can remember their first love and the innocence to it.
A young adult protagonist is also at an age where they're more likely to change as a person making for easier to create character arcs. An older grizzled character set in their ways requires a more complex narrative which isn't always what you want for a medium that doesn't have narrative as its primary expression. Overall I'd say a youthful pair of eyes open to new experiences can be a great compliment to a fantasy setting and letting players see your world through that lense, if you're going with a more traditional jrpg setting. It's not what I'm going for with my game, but nonetheless I'm favorable to teens and tweens being the leads of an adventure.
On top of that, there's a timelessness to the coming of age tale that allows it to repackaged so many times. As an example, I did not grow up with studio Ghibli films and have only recently started watching them. So I saw Kiki's Delivery Service a few months ago in my mid-twenties and I found myself really enjoying it, and I think it's due to how relatable a coming of age story can be and the sort of memories it can stir up like a lot of firsts and key moments that a lot of people went through at that age. Everyone can remember their first love and the innocence to it.
A young adult protagonist is also at an age where they're more likely to change as a person making for easier to create character arcs. An older grizzled character set in their ways requires a more complex narrative which isn't always what you want for a medium that doesn't have narrative as its primary expression. Overall I'd say a youthful pair of eyes open to new experiences can be a great compliment to a fantasy setting and letting players see your world through that lense, if you're going with a more traditional jrpg setting. It's not what I'm going for with my game, but nonetheless I'm favorable to teens and tweens being the leads of an adventure.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Liberty
Yeah, but just using that as an example. Most games that have the grizzled 40 year old is someone who's been around the block a few times and knows what's what. Even a 25 year old is expected to be competent in their own little bubble and know a bit of what's going on in the world.
A bit of what's going on, yeah, but a lot less than what would be needed to go through your typical RPG plot, especially since such plots involve the nice, peaceful status quo being shaken up.
If you were dropped into the lap of a 25 year old who had no idea of how to do any kind of thing or know anything about the world (unless they've been dropped into an unknown world like the player is or has amnesia a la slave crown) it would be like ...eh, this MC is a dumbass. There's usually a less likeable aspect to their character (they're lazy and have never had a job before, they are idiots who never bothered to listen to anything anyone ever said about anywhere/thing/body... that kind of thing) in that case and that can make you kinda meh about them since society has taught us that we should begoodlittledronesresponsible and stand-up people who have their shit together (even when we don't).
I mean, for one, that doesn't HAVE to apply to a fantasy society at all. Also, a story that relies entirely on its protag knowing nothing and being dumb as a box of rocks probably isn't a very good story to begin with.
Why can't a RPG have a seasoned protag who's a fish out of water in other respects? Such stories are a mainstay of action movies, thrillers, horror, and mystery, but throw in elf ears and swords and suddenly it's just completely impossible to write that kind of protag?
Besides, who can ignore the allure of being able to turn back time and be an awkward teen again and flirt with cuties and make something awesome of their lives instead of just going through schooling and getting a 9-5 and living out a rather normal existence or something?
I mean, personally, I'm not too keen on reliving life as a teen, both because my teens were not especially interesting or fun, and because general teen life seems to be a cocktail of idiocy and puberty-based unpleasantness.
BRING ON THE TWEENS!
Tweens are the 10-12 demographic, which you don't see as often, and which I feel would actually be more interesting as a protag than a late teen, at least assuming you're approaching them with a knowledge of their psychology. It's a very interesting age.
author=EtherPenguin
A young adult protagonist is also at an age where they're more likely to change as a person making for easier to create character arcs. An older grizzled character set in their ways requires a more complex narrative which isn't always what you want for a medium that doesn't have narrative as its primary expression.
I'm kind of confused at the idea of adults not being able to have a character arc in fantasy/scifi stories, when non-genre stories depict adults with character arcs all the time, while also not involving said adults in high stakes, life-or-death situations (which are exactly the kind of situations that can bring on personal change).
(Also, it's really weird to be talking in a jRPG forum about "a medium that doesn't have narrative as its primary expression," since that's one of the big Things about RPGs in general.)
I think there is merit to both sides here. If you want to do the traditional RPG thing and have teen and late teen protagonists, then have fun and go for it. :DDDDDDDD
On the other hand, poo-pooing older protagonists in RPGs seems really short-sighted to me, because RPGs in general have so much potential to tell so many types of stories, so I'm all for older characters. Heck, even grandpas and grandmas could be protags depending on the situation!
As a kid, I generally thought the characters in RPGs were older than their cannonical ages anyway, as unless I missed it, the game itself never tells you directly that Locke is way older than Terra or that Celes is just 18.
For example, Final Fantasy 4 is a classic, and I've never seen the official canonical ages for the cast, though looking it up now, Cecil is apparently 20? Seems about right. In story alone, we know that Cecil is the captain of the Red Wings and has a fair bit of responsibility before its taken away from him.
But I don't feel like the story suffers because Cecil isn't a tween or teen. In fact I feel like it elevates the story. His guilt over what he did as the captain of the Red Wings and the destruction of the village of Mist work better for me if he's 20. Rydia, who is a child, first hates him and then looks up to him as an adult she can trust and we'd lose that if he was another teenager.
In Final Fantasy 5, Bartz and Faris are 20 and Lenna is 19. The strange adventures they get into are no less interesting just because they aren't preteens or teens, and they play off of the 60 year old Galuf wonderfully. Granted, Bartz can be a bit dumb (played up even more in the English translations XD) but I still feel like he's a good protagonist.
I know early twenties isn't far from teens, and studies suggest we don't truly reach a final maturity until 25 or so, but I think these examples illustrate that RPG heroes don't all have to be really young. I want to see more 25 year olds, 30 year olds, or even older as heroes in stories where it feels appropriate. Heck, I often don't even assign ages to my characters and just let the players decide how old they think they characters are XD
TLDR: Let's have RPG heroes of all ages and make lots of different sorts of fun stories!
On the other hand, poo-pooing older protagonists in RPGs seems really short-sighted to me, because RPGs in general have so much potential to tell so many types of stories, so I'm all for older characters. Heck, even grandpas and grandmas could be protags depending on the situation!
As a kid, I generally thought the characters in RPGs were older than their cannonical ages anyway, as unless I missed it, the game itself never tells you directly that Locke is way older than Terra or that Celes is just 18.
For example, Final Fantasy 4 is a classic, and I've never seen the official canonical ages for the cast, though looking it up now, Cecil is apparently 20? Seems about right. In story alone, we know that Cecil is the captain of the Red Wings and has a fair bit of responsibility before its taken away from him.
But I don't feel like the story suffers because Cecil isn't a tween or teen. In fact I feel like it elevates the story. His guilt over what he did as the captain of the Red Wings and the destruction of the village of Mist work better for me if he's 20. Rydia, who is a child, first hates him and then looks up to him as an adult she can trust and we'd lose that if he was another teenager.
In Final Fantasy 5, Bartz and Faris are 20 and Lenna is 19. The strange adventures they get into are no less interesting just because they aren't preteens or teens, and they play off of the 60 year old Galuf wonderfully. Granted, Bartz can be a bit dumb (played up even more in the English translations XD) but I still feel like he's a good protagonist.
I know early twenties isn't far from teens, and studies suggest we don't truly reach a final maturity until 25 or so, but I think these examples illustrate that RPG heroes don't all have to be really young. I want to see more 25 year olds, 30 year olds, or even older as heroes in stories where it feels appropriate. Heck, I often don't even assign ages to my characters and just let the players decide how old they think they characters are XD
TLDR: Let's have RPG heroes of all ages and make lots of different sorts of fun stories!
Crystalgate
694
I once had a book full of old stories and a lot of them had boys about 16'ish as main character. Typically, the age was unlisted, but the context made it look like they were 16. Often they were even younger though.
It's not too uncommon that the boy becomes a man during his adventure. To become a man, you have to be old enough for it to be plausible, but not so old that you already are a man.
It's also worth noting that you were supposed to handle adult tasks much younger during the earlier times. Get a job at maybe 12 and married at 16. 21 was a common age for knighthood and a knight was an elite warrior. There were definitely even younger killing machines.
It's not too uncommon that the boy becomes a man during his adventure. To become a man, you have to be old enough for it to be plausible, but not so old that you already are a man.
It's also worth noting that you were supposed to handle adult tasks much younger during the earlier times. Get a job at maybe 12 and married at 16. 21 was a common age for knighthood and a knight was an elite warrior. There were definitely even younger killing machines.
Pyramid_Head
16
I do remember reading somewhere that most squires start at an early age. So I guess from a narrative perspective, especially in medieval type fantasy games having teenage heroes isn't so out of the ordinary.
I mean, take a look at Berserk, throughout the Golden Age Arc Guts is supposed to be about 16 (even though he sounds and looks older, but that could be because of the hardships he faced throughout his life until that moment.)
I mean, take a look at Berserk, throughout the Golden Age Arc Guts is supposed to be about 16 (even though he sounds and looks older, but that could be because of the hardships he faced throughout his life until that moment.)
StormCrow
2877
@Darken:
What you said about WWII is absolutely true. God, people in that generation are just OBJECTIVELY BETTER than any of the generations that followed; well, I guess that's why they're called The Greatest Generation, pretty on the nose. They were very literally saving the world from evil at 18 (many that were even younger lied about their age to enlist) and we are collectively living in our parents basements at 30 as we watch our planet fester and die from the wounds our parents gave it, thinking that hashtags are going to change something.
And I totally think good writing about young and younger protagonists is very possible (...not shameless self promotion or anything). I just don't think Squaresoft has DONE a lot of it.
(well first off, I'm one of those rare child prodigies that did grow up to be a genius, at least according to the arbitrary metrics we use in the west. now before i get crucified for the arrogance of that statement, let me say that it hasn't done me any good in life and it hasn't stopped me from doing stupid shit and i am sure i will be doing plenty of stupid shit in the future so i'm not saying this out of ego because i don't even think it's an advantage at this point, but yeah, some child prodigies do grow up to be geniuses. being a genius is fucking overrated. it's not mutually exclusive with being a dumbass and it correlates strongly with misery. none of this applies to what i had to say about Quistis below because I'm a person and she's a fictional character.)
Okay, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent criticizing the bad writing in FF8, also please understand I am not swearing because I'm angry, just because I'm a big ol' pottymouth, BUT:
* Yes, they do fuck up because of their youth, but there are seldom logical consequences! Squall's reward for completely fucking up the mission to assassinate Edea is to be...promoted to commander of SeeD??? What the fuck was Cid POSSIBLY thinking? Hmm...I'm a 40 year old veteran, you're an emotionally unbalanced borderline sociopathic 18 year old with no understanding of his own feelings, no interest in or awareness of the feelings of others, and dangerously nihilistic tendencies...you tried to kill my wife which should make me not like you...and you bungled it spectacularly and got arrested which demonstrated your incompetence...HERE, HAVE MY ARMY I SPENT MY LIFE TRAINING AND BUILDING! Cid Kramer is easily my least favorite Cid. He is so fucking soft it is inconceivable that he could be leading a merc outfit in the first place.
* The main problem I have with Quistis (totally my favorite character btw) is that yeah, she'd be believable as a genius child prodigy teaching a class a year younger than her, if the character wasn't a useless GODDAMN IDIOT for the entire rest of the game. Except for knowing exactly what Squall is going to say next, an ability that can be learned by anyone who has played the game for 20 fucking minutes, her erstwhile intelligence consistently fails to come through in her dialogue or actions where she demonstrates no smarts whatsoever.
Probably the most glaring example of badddd characterization is when you land on Battleship Island for the first time. Quistis--the one who's supposed to be the SMART one--says something like "what the hell is this place I have never heard of it" and Squall, who has been established as not giving a shit about anything except his own eternal wangst, somehow knows what it is and tells her. On the other hand, if you have ZELL in the party, he gets to be the one that knows about this place and tells you. I'm sorry, but "Know It All Zell"? At what point did we establish that Zell knows FUCKING ANYTHING!?!? His entire character is that he's a goofy moron!
Quistis has one moment of genuine wisdom in the entire game that I've seen so far (I don't know what's beyond Lunatic Pandora, I just know Ultimecia Castle is going to be a bitch when I get there)--and being wise is not the same as being smart--and that's when she tells Squall that maybe he should go after the girl he's in love with rather than just passively letting her become sealed evil in a can? And that moment mostly works because she is finally saying what the audience has been screaming at Squall in less polite language the entire time.
"Morbid cynicism but it gets results. That's humanity for you."
- Revolver Ocelot
This. Totally and exactly this. Although I didn't want to be Cloud Strife, because he's not as cool as Barrett and way less cool than Vincent Valentine. Sidenote: the Anita Sarkeesians of world've been screaming about how vidyagames desperately need female role models so that girls can relate to them are fucking dumb; people can relate to people of a different gender, Anita, it's called being a sane human being.
You know, I actually wasn't enough of a weeb to know this. That actually goes a long way towards explaining the phenomenon. Thank you.
I dunno, ask Roman Polanski.
well sorry not sorry but that is seriously fucking creepy.
Nothing will ever explain why Squall didn't go for it, though. I think my resentment of the character Squall Leonhart has its genesis in my teenage resentment of him for rejecting Quistis in the beginning of the game. Even as a teenager I was hot for teacher. Quistis is obviously objectively* much hotter, and she may be a ditz as I mentioned above, but Rinoa is a spoiled rich ditz.
Actually, without being facetious at all, I believe that the proper adventuring age is around 10-12. Sources: Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, The Goonies, Stephen King and Peter Straub's The Talisman.
*sarcasm
I'm gonna split this off into a double post now, sorry. I'm not trying to respond to everyone systematically it's just y'all pretty much without exception have interesting shit to say on the subject.
What you said about WWII is absolutely true. God, people in that generation are just OBJECTIVELY BETTER than any of the generations that followed; well, I guess that's why they're called The Greatest Generation, pretty on the nose. They were very literally saving the world from evil at 18 (many that were even younger lied about their age to enlist) and we are collectively living in our parents basements at 30 as we watch our planet fester and die from the wounds our parents gave it, thinking that hashtags are going to change something.
And I totally think good writing about young and younger protagonists is very possible (...not shameless self promotion or anything). I just don't think Squaresoft has DONE a lot of it.
author=Darken
But specific to FF8, its entire concept from the start was combining school with war. The story provides a lot of effective commentary on why it's not a good idea to send young people into worldly political situations. Almost every plot point in disc 1 is pushed forward by typical character youth mistakes (Seifer being too overconfident in Dollet, Zell revealing information about Garden through Seifer's taunting, Seifer being seduced by the dark side with the sorceress literally calling him a little boy,Rinoa potentially screwing up the mission because of her rebelliousness against her father, Irvine not being able to make the shot due to the knowledge about who took care of them etc.). These are flaws that might not have happened had these characters grew up and not done these things for the first time.
Consider also that a lot of students of Garden are likely war orphans (as of the entire main cast except Rinoa) and that Garden as an organization goes through a lot of 'ends justify the means' ordeals in order to kill the Sorceress. Squall essentially has some sort of PTSD syndrome when it comes to focusing all of his efforts on becoming SEED and neglecting compassion. I think there's also something about the lore in it being easier to junction the younger you are? Regarding Quistis, I really don't get why a child prodigy who rose to the ranks to be able to teach their contemporaries is really that crazy. There are tons of child prodigies in real life that can achieve advancements in education, though interestingly according to this: rarely does a child prodigy become an adult genius. But then, keep in mind Quistis got demoted from being a teacher due to her lack of leadership qualities, which actually kind of sells that aspect even more.
(well first off, I'm one of those rare child prodigies that did grow up to be a genius, at least according to the arbitrary metrics we use in the west. now before i get crucified for the arrogance of that statement, let me say that it hasn't done me any good in life and it hasn't stopped me from doing stupid shit and i am sure i will be doing plenty of stupid shit in the future so i'm not saying this out of ego because i don't even think it's an advantage at this point, but yeah, some child prodigies do grow up to be geniuses. being a genius is fucking overrated. it's not mutually exclusive with being a dumbass and it correlates strongly with misery. none of this applies to what i had to say about Quistis below because I'm a person and she's a fictional character.)
Okay, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent criticizing the bad writing in FF8, also please understand I am not swearing because I'm angry, just because I'm a big ol' pottymouth, BUT:
* Yes, they do fuck up because of their youth, but there are seldom logical consequences! Squall's reward for completely fucking up the mission to assassinate Edea is to be...promoted to commander of SeeD??? What the fuck was Cid POSSIBLY thinking? Hmm...I'm a 40 year old veteran, you're an emotionally unbalanced borderline sociopathic 18 year old with no understanding of his own feelings, no interest in or awareness of the feelings of others, and dangerously nihilistic tendencies...you tried to kill my wife which should make me not like you...and you bungled it spectacularly and got arrested which demonstrated your incompetence...HERE, HAVE MY ARMY I SPENT MY LIFE TRAINING AND BUILDING! Cid Kramer is easily my least favorite Cid. He is so fucking soft it is inconceivable that he could be leading a merc outfit in the first place.
* The main problem I have with Quistis (totally my favorite character btw) is that yeah, she'd be believable as a genius child prodigy teaching a class a year younger than her, if the character wasn't a useless GODDAMN IDIOT for the entire rest of the game. Except for knowing exactly what Squall is going to say next, an ability that can be learned by anyone who has played the game for 20 fucking minutes, her erstwhile intelligence consistently fails to come through in her dialogue or actions where she demonstrates no smarts whatsoever.
Probably the most glaring example of badddd characterization is when you land on Battleship Island for the first time. Quistis--the one who's supposed to be the SMART one--says something like "what the hell is this place I have never heard of it" and Squall, who has been established as not giving a shit about anything except his own eternal wangst, somehow knows what it is and tells her. On the other hand, if you have ZELL in the party, he gets to be the one that knows about this place and tells you. I'm sorry, but "Know It All Zell"? At what point did we establish that Zell knows FUCKING ANYTHING!?!? His entire character is that he's a goofy moron!
Quistis has one moment of genuine wisdom in the entire game that I've seen so far (I don't know what's beyond Lunatic Pandora, I just know Ultimecia Castle is going to be a bitch when I get there)--and being wise is not the same as being smart--and that's when she tells Squall that maybe he should go after the girl he's in love with rather than just passively letting her become sealed evil in a can? And that moment mostly works because she is finally saying what the audience has been screaming at Squall in less polite language the entire time.
author=Sgt M
Marketing.
13-25 year olds are the target audience for most video games, particularly during the late 90s/early 2000s when JRPGs were still frontrunner games if we're going by the examples provided in the OP.
Players generally desire characters that are relatable to them in age.
And that sells units.
And that pleases shareholders.
That's pretty much it.
"Morbid cynicism but it gets results. That's humanity for you."
- Revolver Ocelot
author=LockeZ
But I mean, I don't think 12 year olds play action adventure games to get the experience of being 12 years old. The fantasy if you're a kid is to become an adult. Not an older adult, but still an adult. 12 year olds want to be Cloud Strife, not Ash Ketchum.
This. Totally and exactly this. Although I didn't want to be Cloud Strife, because he's not as cool as Barrett and way less cool than Vincent Valentine. Sidenote: the Anita Sarkeesians of world've been screaming about how vidyagames desperately need female role models so that girls can relate to them are fucking dumb; people can relate to people of a different gender, Anita, it's called being a sane human being.
author=LockeZ
Part of the issue with Japanese works though is that age 15 is generally considered an adult in Japan, culturally speaking. So if you have characters who are 15-17, they very much qualify for this phenomenon. They're young enough to still be relatable to a younger audience, but old enough for that younger audience to still perceive them as adults who would be qualified to take on the world.
You know, I actually wasn't enough of a weeb to know this. That actually goes a long way towards explaining the phenomenon. Thank you.
author=bulma
Hollywood likes to push the "16 is pedophilia (when it's clearly not)" while at the same time glorifying pedophilia with all sorts of child actors looking super made up. Hypocrites much?
I dunno, ask Roman Polanski.
author=bulma
Japan's age of consent is 13. Yeah, seriously.
well sorry not sorry but that is seriously fucking creepy.
author=bulma
It also, explains why Quistis is a teacher, and why it's seen as so bad for her to be into Squall.
Nothing will ever explain why Squall didn't go for it, though. I think my resentment of the character Squall Leonhart has its genesis in my teenage resentment of him for rejecting Quistis in the beginning of the game. Even as a teenager I was hot for teacher. Quistis is obviously objectively* much hotter, and she may be a ditz as I mentioned above, but Rinoa is a spoiled rich ditz.
author=bulma
Now, the age of consent for adventuring... is around 9. At 6, you're much too young emotionally to be killing monsters and possibly humans, at 9, you've mostly finished childhood, no longer need diapers, and can usually read unless illit and have probably learned some useful skills like lockpicking.
Actually, without being facetious at all, I believe that the proper adventuring age is around 10-12. Sources: Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, The Goonies, Stephen King and Peter Straub's The Talisman.
*sarcasm
I'm gonna split this off into a double post now, sorry. I'm not trying to respond to everyone systematically it's just y'all pretty much without exception have interesting shit to say on the subject.
