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KILLING PEOPLE, FALLING IN LOVE, AND SAVING THE WORLD...AT 17???
Posts
EtherPenguin
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Closeauthor=Sooz
I'm kind of confused at the idea of adults not being able to have a character arc in fantasy/scifi stories, when non-genre stories depict adults with character arcs all the time, while also not involving said adults in high stakes, life-or-death situations (which are exactly the kind of situations that can bring on personal change).
(Also, it's really weird to be talking in a jRPG forum about "a medium that doesn't have narrative as its primary expression," since that's one of the big Things about RPGs in general.)
That's not what I said. I simply said a YA cast is a good compliment to fantasy, not that a more experienced cast can't be or shouldn't be (and I never mentioned scifi at all). I even said at the end of my post that my own game is not using a YA cast. I'm currently reading the Buried Giant, a fantasy book where the leads are a couple in their golden years, and Tehanu is my favorite of the Earthsea books. I'm well aware that an older protagonist can work very well. In fact I'd even say it's needed for more complex narratives (which is why I think an adult cast compliments scifi best).
But there's two things I feel are true of fantasy. One is that the world is sick and needs to undergo change with the character, and the other goes right along with that, fantasy reaffirms alternatives to what the world can be. I believe it's easy to connect that struggle to a younger protagonist, to create a parallel between your character's journey and the journey that the world undergoes in a sense. To see that the world is sick and view with a fresh pair of eyes to dream up alternatives to bring hope for a brighter future compliments the passion of youth and someone who may not already have strong political leanings. Again, that's not the same as saying you CAN'T have an older protagonist with a character arc in fantasy.
And no, the narrative is not the main dish of an RPG any more than it is any other video game genre. The game mechanics are. Narrative is tool used to make those mechanics less abstract and more intuitive. For this medium, narrative serves the needs of the gameplay. That's not to say unique mechanics don't organically come out of story ideas but even then you used those story ideas to achieve your main goal of coming up with unique mechanics, the story served the gameplay.
For a lot of people here working on games by themselves, I assume you want to figure out how to keep your scope small. For someone who really cares about gameplay and has devised an idea for a game based on the mechanics they want to explore, that's probably the main thing they really want to do. To ask that person to sit down and learn how writing works seems unreasonable. For someone like that, I would recommend working with easy to follow templates which the coming of age story and hero's journey are. It's nice when both are done well but I'd rather have a game with interesting mechanics and a simple story than the reverse. Admittedly, I'm someone who tends to skip cutscenes a lot.
StormCrow
2877
@EtherPenguin: Whoa! Your page ninja saved me from double posting.
This is exactly the kind of insight into the Japanese psyche I was looking for, thanks Sooz.
I do not have the words to explain just how much better ASoIaF/Game Of Thrones handles writing child/adolescent protagonists than the average JRPG, so let me go with: 50 BILLION TIMES BETTER.
The protag of (must not link to it must not link to it must not link to it) the game I'm actively working on now is pretty much exactly that. He's a veteran special forces badass here on Earth. And then he goes through a portal into JRPG land where nothing makes sense. He can hold his own in combat because he brought an M4 with him and because killing is killing, but as far as things like save points and mimics and spells and monsters he is totally baffled, let alone the actual magical geopolitics of magicland. It's his step into the land of elf ears and swords that makes him a fish out of water, however.
author=Sooz
TBH in Japan, the high school years are considered the only years you have any kind of freedom: after that, it's assumed you're buckling down and either getting yourself into a job or going to college, both of which are expected to take up all your time and attention. Or, if you're a ladytype, you're gonna get married and pop out babies.
So there's an expectation that once you leave your teen years, you'll be devoting all your time and attention to either a job or a family.
I'll note that the expectation of job time extends past the usual working hours: you're expected to also hang out with your coworkers drinking afterward, and you're usually expected to be on-call. So literally your life is gonna be your job or your family once you're in the adult world, leaving no time for hijinks of any sort.
This extends to fantasy and sci-fi settings because it's just an inculcated attitude: too many people would have trouble with the idea of a protag who's an adult NOT feeling the crushing weight of responsibility shackling them down and preventing them from doing whatever.
This is exactly the kind of insight into the Japanese psyche I was looking for, thanks Sooz.
author=Shiny
An aside, not about jrpgs but in A Song of Ice and Fire the oldest Stark child (Robb Stark) is 14 when the books start, by the time he's king of the north he's not even 16.
I know those kids mostly fail at saving the world but still.
I do not have the words to explain just how much better ASoIaF/Game Of Thrones handles writing child/adolescent protagonists than the average JRPG, so let me go with: 50 BILLION TIMES BETTER.
author=Sooz
Why can't a RPG have a seasoned protag who's a fish out of water in other respects? Such stories are a mainstay of action movies, thrillers, horror, and mystery, but throw in elf ears and swords and suddenly it's just completely impossible to write that kind of protag?
The protag of (must not link to it must not link to it must not link to it) the game I'm actively working on now is pretty much exactly that. He's a veteran special forces badass here on Earth. And then he goes through a portal into JRPG land where nothing makes sense. He can hold his own in combat because he brought an M4 with him and because killing is killing, but as far as things like save points and mimics and spells and monsters he is totally baffled, let alone the actual magical geopolitics of magicland. It's his step into the land of elf ears and swords that makes him a fish out of water, however.
Ryder's attitude once through the portal: what the fuck is this and how do I get my team out alive?
Simmons' attitude once through the portal: what the fuck is this and how can I arrange for the US Government exploit it?
O'Hara's attitude once through the portal: fuck this entire place.
Watanabe's attitude once through the portal: MUST. SCIENCE. EVERYTHING.
Simmons' attitude once through the portal: what the fuck is this and how can I arrange for the US Government exploit it?
O'Hara's attitude once through the portal: fuck this entire place.
Watanabe's attitude once through the portal: MUST. SCIENCE. EVERYTHING.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I'm gonna admit, I'm just passing on stuff I heard from a video by another non-Japanese person, so just keep that in mind. My source (and I, by extension) may be full of shit. :B
It does match up with other stuff I've seen, but I'd definitely advise asking actual natives of Japan if you're really interested in the psyche.
It does match up with other stuff I've seen, but I'd definitely advise asking actual natives of Japan if you're really interested in the psyche.
StormCrow
2877
I kind of feel like...and I don't mean this to be racist or whatever...but I kind of feel like they're so caught up in it they can't perceive it. I mean, I felt like I understood America a lot better after Trump won the election and I renounced my American citizenship in everything but the legal sense and sort of viewed the country from the outside looking in.
I strongly agree with this. The one exception would be your characters that are over a hundred years old. It is difficult for me to imagine an immortal or ancient (not YOU Aerith) as a dynamic rather than a static character. I feel like once you've been around for centuries, who you are is fundamentally set in stone by that point. Not a lot of real humans are going to change their world views after 50, to be honest. I'm only in my 30s and a fair amount of my ideology and perspective is fairly firmly fixed. Doesn't mean I can't have an arc. Actually, tbh, I really did have an arc over the last couple years (really the tragic ending to an twelve year arc), and it was absolutely a humiliation conga. And then some. But I think I'm at the end of it now. Doesn't mean I'll never have an arc again. I hope I will.
WUT. I am sorry but not even in fantasy land is any 16 y.o. that jacked. And don't get me wrong, I loveGriffith Berserk.
Semi-final thought, by the way: this was not a thread about whether having young protagonists is good or bad or valid or invalid. Characters of virtually any age are valid depending on the story you're telling. My favorite character I've written recently is a 2,000 year old Sorceress trapped in the body of a 14 year old girl. This was was a thread about the hows and whys behind young protagonists being the DEFAULT for this genre, and I've already gotten a lot of good responses, so thanks everyone.
If anything, I think Cecil, Bartz, and Faris could really stand to be 5 or 10 years older. I'm not well versed in FF4 or FF5 but I've played a little of both and I'd assumed, not having wiki'd anything, that those characters were at least in their early 30s. Okay, I think I didn't actually assume anything about Bartz except that he's dumb.
You are so MAGICAL to meee...<3
author=Sooz
I'm kind of confused at the idea of adults not being able to have a character arc in fantasy/scifi stories, when non-genre stories depict adults with character arcs all the time, while also not involving said adults in high stakes, life-or-death situations (which are exactly the kind of situations that can bring on personal change).
I strongly agree with this. The one exception would be your characters that are over a hundred years old. It is difficult for me to imagine an immortal or ancient (not YOU Aerith) as a dynamic rather than a static character. I feel like once you've been around for centuries, who you are is fundamentally set in stone by that point. Not a lot of real humans are going to change their world views after 50, to be honest. I'm only in my 30s and a fair amount of my ideology and perspective is fairly firmly fixed. Doesn't mean I can't have an arc. Actually, tbh, I really did have an arc over the last couple years (really the tragic ending to an twelve year arc), and it was absolutely a humiliation conga. And then some. But I think I'm at the end of it now. Doesn't mean I'll never have an arc again. I hope I will.
author=PyramidHead
I mean, take a look at Berserk, throughout the Golden Age Arc Guts is supposed to be about 16 (even though he sounds and looks older, but that could be because of the hardships he faced throughout his life until that moment.)
WUT. I am sorry but not even in fantasy land is any 16 y.o. that jacked. And don't get me wrong, I love
Semi-final thought, by the way: this was not a thread about whether having young protagonists is good or bad or valid or invalid. Characters of virtually any age are valid depending on the story you're telling. My favorite character I've written recently is a 2,000 year old Sorceress trapped in the body of a 14 year old girl. This was was a thread about the hows and whys behind young protagonists being the DEFAULT for this genre, and I've already gotten a lot of good responses, so thanks everyone.
author=unity
I think there is merit to both sides here. If you want to do the traditional RPG thing and have teen and late teen protagonists, then have fun and go for it. :DDDDDDDD
On the other hand, poo-pooing older protagonists in RPGs seems really short-sighted to me, because RPGs in general have so much potential to tell so many types of stories, so I'm all for older characters. Heck, even grandpas and grandmas could be protags depending on the situation!
As a kid, I generally thought the characters in RPGs were older than their cannonical ages anyway, as unless I missed it, the game itself never tells you directly that Locke is way older than Terra or that Celes is just 18.
For example, Final Fantasy 4 is a classic, and I've never seen the official canonical ages for the cast, though looking it up now, Cecil is apparently 20? Seems about right. In story alone, we know that Cecil is the captain of the Red Wings and has a fair bit of responsibility before its taken away from him.
But I don't feel like the story suffers because Cecil isn't a tween or teen. In fact I feel like it elevates the story. His guilt over what he did as the captain of the Red Wings and the destruction of the village of Mist work better for me if he's 20. Rydia, who is a child, first hates him and then looks up to him as an adult she can trust and we'd lose that if he was another teenager.
In Final Fantasy 5, Bartz and Faris are 20 and Lenna is 19. The strange adventures they get into are no less interesting just because they aren't preteens or teens, and they play off of the 60 year old Galuf wonderfully. Granted, Bartz can be a bit dumb (played up even more in the English translations XD) but I still feel like he's a good protagonist.
I know early twenties isn't far from teens, and studies suggest we don't truly reach a final maturity until 25 or so, but I think these examples illustrate that RPG heroes don't all have to be really young. I want to see more 25 year olds, 30 year olds, or even older as heroes in stories where it feels appropriate. Heck, I often don't even assign ages to my characters and just let the players decide how old they think they characters are XD
If anything, I think Cecil, Bartz, and Faris could really stand to be 5 or 10 years older. I'm not well versed in FF4 or FF5 but I've played a little of both and I'd assumed, not having wiki'd anything, that those characters were at least in their early 30s. Okay, I think I didn't actually assume anything about Bartz except that he's dumb.
author=unity
TLDR: Let's have RPG heroes of all ages and make lots of different sorts of fun stories!
You are so MAGICAL to meee...<3
Darken
3952
scroll past this post if you don't care about ff8:
Squall dealt with NORG and avoided the missiles fired at Balamb Garden. He was the only person capable of absolving those two situations when the Garden was in complete dissaray. Killing the sorceress isn't just "some test" to prove worth it's the whole goal of making Garden in the first place. Squall was the closest one to accomplishing that in the history of Garden. This is also not a standard military promotion, at this point the Garden is no longer operating on any official capacity other than whatever Cid feels like doing. He's no longer a slave to NORG's duties and guidelines and the only thing left to do now is fight the sorceress head on.
Obviously Cid is conflicted by having to eliminate his own wife, I don't see why he would be mad at a person he ordered to do the deed. In fact it solves a lot of things by not having to deal with the whole dilemma in the first place. He spent the whole NORG ordeal hiding in an office while the dude who gets shit done comes in with several ideas on what to do next putting Garden back into stability.
I also think you're misdiagnosing and exaggerating Squall there because he does care about his comrades multiple times and there are moments of compassion especially for morale. He's just not that social outside of the mission or when it comes to learning about peoples hobbies and desires etc. It'd be accurate to say he's actually very stable when carrying out missions, while Irvine fails to make the shot he says:
Your description actually better describes Seifer who constantly jeopardizes the mission and was expelled due to not following orders. It's pretty established that even in the Dollet mission (which was considered a draw or a failure depending on how you look at it) that it's not about achieving victory or the glory, but rather how you fulfill your respective roles. When Seifer screws up, Squall does the best he can within his position. When Irvine screws up, Squall calms him down and quickly formulates a last ditch effort.
The whole point of Squall as a character is that he makes things harder on himself internally while excelling at his external dedication above all else (training, the mission, defeating the sorceress) and only then through his character development does he find purpose in his own internal desires.
And SPOILER if you haven't beaten the game:
Edea knows Squall and SeeD is destined to kill the Sorcereress. Future Squall flat out tells her this and likely by proxy Cid as well.
author=Stormcrow
* Yes, they do fuck up because of their youth, but there are seldom logical consequences! Squall's reward for completely fucking up the mission to assassinate Edea is to be...promoted to commander of SeeD??? What the fuck was Cid POSSIBLY thinking? Hmm...I'm a 40 year old veteran, you're an emotionally unbalanced borderline sociopathic 18 year old with no understanding of his own feelings, no interest in or awareness of the feelings of others, and dangerously nihilistic tendencies...you tried to kill my wife which should make me not like you...and you bungled it spectacularly and got arrested which demonstrated your incompetence...HERE, HAVE MY ARMY I SPENT MY LIFE TRAINING AND BUILDING! Cid Kramer is easily my least favorite Cid. He is so fucking soft it is inconceivable that he could be leading a merc outfit in the first place.
Squall dealt with NORG and avoided the missiles fired at Balamb Garden. He was the only person capable of absolving those two situations when the Garden was in complete dissaray. Killing the sorceress isn't just "some test" to prove worth it's the whole goal of making Garden in the first place. Squall was the closest one to accomplishing that in the history of Garden. This is also not a standard military promotion, at this point the Garden is no longer operating on any official capacity other than whatever Cid feels like doing. He's no longer a slave to NORG's duties and guidelines and the only thing left to do now is fight the sorceress head on.
Obviously Cid is conflicted by having to eliminate his own wife, I don't see why he would be mad at a person he ordered to do the deed. In fact it solves a lot of things by not having to deal with the whole dilemma in the first place. He spent the whole NORG ordeal hiding in an office while the dude who gets shit done comes in with several ideas on what to do next putting Garden back into stability.
I also think you're misdiagnosing and exaggerating Squall there because he does care about his comrades multiple times and there are moments of compassion especially for morale. He's just not that social outside of the mission or when it comes to learning about peoples hobbies and desires etc. It'd be accurate to say he's actually very stable when carrying out missions, while Irvine fails to make the shot he says:
Squall: "Irvine, calm down. Everyone's waiting on you. I don't care if you
miss. Whatever happens, just leave the rest to us. Just think of it as
a signal. A sign for us to make our move."
Irvine: "Just a signal..."
Squall: (That's it.) "Please."
[Irvine kneels down, holding the sniper rifle steadily.]
Irvine: "...Just a sign."
[Irvine aims an fires, but the Sorceress puts up a barrier to catch it.]
Irvine: "...I'm sorry."
Squall: "It's ok. Your aim was perfect. Just leave the rest up to me. I'm goin'
in for the sorceress. Irvine, Rinoa, just be ready to back me up. Take
care of Rinoa."
Your description actually better describes Seifer who constantly jeopardizes the mission and was expelled due to not following orders. It's pretty established that even in the Dollet mission (which was considered a draw or a failure depending on how you look at it) that it's not about achieving victory or the glory, but rather how you fulfill your respective roles. When Seifer screws up, Squall does the best he can within his position. When Irvine screws up, Squall calms him down and quickly formulates a last ditch effort.
The whole point of Squall as a character is that he makes things harder on himself internally while excelling at his external dedication above all else (training, the mission, defeating the sorceress) and only then through his character development does he find purpose in his own internal desires.
And SPOILER if you haven't beaten the game:
Edea knows Squall and SeeD is destined to kill the Sorcereress. Future Squall flat out tells her this and likely by proxy Cid as well.
StormCrow
2877
ff8
in short
Zach Morris Cid Kramer is trash.
I am probably being a little hard on Squall, I admit, particularly with the pop psychology. He's still a dick. But I don't think I'm being hard on Cid Kramer. Unless that SPOILER (which I totally am not gonna click until I beat the game) concerns him, Cid Kramer...
* Lucked into marrying an incredibly powerful and sexy sorceress who saw I have no idea what in him.
* I guess kind of assisted her somehow in establishing a millitary organization with the goal of killing her in the future because she was Sara Connor and Kyle Reese told her she was going to become Skynet in 1997 (wouldn't it have been much less convoluted just to kill yourself rather than plant the "SeeD" of a paramilitary organization to do it in 15 years or whatever?)
* Scammed a yellow George Lucas creature with a giant distended nutsack for a chin into giving him the money to start SeeD under FALSE PRETENSES (seriously, imagine for a second you're NORG, a neutral greedy potential investor. The pitch you're given is: give me 50 billion gil so I can train an elite sect of warriors to murder my wife in the future, because a witch from the future is going to possess her? You gonna invest? No fucking way.) What testacleface agreed to was to fund a mercenary outfit.
* USED EXPERIMENTAL MAGITEK ON ORPHANS WHILST KNOWING FULL WELL IT COULD CAUSE THEM BRAIN DAMAGE AND TELLING THEM TO IGNORE ALL OF ITS CRITICS
* Gives a teenager a magic lamp with a fucking demon in it who will try to murder him and his friends if and when they open it.
* Hides in his office like a fucking pussy while teenagers are engaged in a violent coup de tat for control of the school HE is Headmaster of, and ravenous monsters have been unleashed by the business partner he so wisely chose.
* Sends Squall into the depths of Balamb Garden to activate its transport mechanism, for no reason withholding everything he knows about the origin and nature of the Garden.
* While in command of Garden shirks his responsibility to open diplomatic relations with the citizens of Fisherman's Horizon onto the young Squall (as this has nothing to do with killing his wife, there is really no legitimate reason he couldn't have handled it himself rather than sending a 17 year old to do the job of a 40 year old man).
* Gives his job as commander and guardian of numerous orphan child soldiers to a 17 year old because of "I'm My Own Grampa" time travel "logic" and "destiny".
* ABANDONS ALL OF THE SEEDS OF BALAMB GARDEN WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THEM OF HIS DEPARTURE to see but not have the balls to kill his potentially world destroying wife.
* Entirely abdicates the entire mission of the organization he founded, foisting it on a "destined" 17 year old because ibid.
* Lucked into marrying an incredibly powerful and sexy sorceress who saw I have no idea what in him.
* I guess kind of assisted her somehow in establishing a millitary organization with the goal of killing her in the future because she was Sara Connor and Kyle Reese told her she was going to become Skynet in 1997 (wouldn't it have been much less convoluted just to kill yourself rather than plant the "SeeD" of a paramilitary organization to do it in 15 years or whatever?)
* Scammed a yellow George Lucas creature with a giant distended nutsack for a chin into giving him the money to start SeeD under FALSE PRETENSES (seriously, imagine for a second you're NORG, a neutral greedy potential investor. The pitch you're given is: give me 50 billion gil so I can train an elite sect of warriors to murder my wife in the future, because a witch from the future is going to possess her? You gonna invest? No fucking way.) What testacleface agreed to was to fund a mercenary outfit.
* USED EXPERIMENTAL MAGITEK ON ORPHANS WHILST KNOWING FULL WELL IT COULD CAUSE THEM BRAIN DAMAGE AND TELLING THEM TO IGNORE ALL OF ITS CRITICS
* Gives a teenager a magic lamp with a fucking demon in it who will try to murder him and his friends if and when they open it.
* Hides in his office like a fucking pussy while teenagers are engaged in a violent coup de tat for control of the school HE is Headmaster of, and ravenous monsters have been unleashed by the business partner he so wisely chose.
* Sends Squall into the depths of Balamb Garden to activate its transport mechanism, for no reason withholding everything he knows about the origin and nature of the Garden.
* While in command of Garden shirks his responsibility to open diplomatic relations with the citizens of Fisherman's Horizon onto the young Squall (as this has nothing to do with killing his wife, there is really no legitimate reason he couldn't have handled it himself rather than sending a 17 year old to do the job of a 40 year old man).
* Gives his job as commander and guardian of numerous orphan child soldiers to a 17 year old because of "I'm My Own Grampa" time travel "logic" and "destiny".
* ABANDONS ALL OF THE SEEDS OF BALAMB GARDEN WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THEM OF HIS DEPARTURE to see but not have the balls to kill his potentially world destroying wife.
* Entirely abdicates the entire mission of the organization he founded, foisting it on a "destined" 17 year old because ibid.
in short
author=StormCrowauthor=Sgt M
Marketing.
13-25 year olds are the target audience for most video games, particularly during the late 90s/early 2000s when JRPGs were still frontrunner games if we're going by the examples provided in the OP.
Players generally desire characters that are relatable to them in age.
And that sells units.
And that pleases shareholders.
That's pretty much it.
"Morbid cynicism but it gets results. That's humanity for you."
- Revolver Ocelot
I meant this more as a "There is a literal business-related reason for this" kind of thing. I'm not really sure where you're drawing cynicism from.
Darken
3952
more FF8:
Ultimecia had not taken full control of her yet. And as demonstrated Ultimecia would have just possessed someone else and likely harder to track down. The plan long-term was for SeeD to defeat the sorceress head on without knowledge on how to exactly to pull it off.
I wouldn't say brain damage, just early memory loss that actually can be recovered through discovery and reminiscence. Considering the main party would also be conflicted about killing their Matron it's actually pretty convenient to not know who you're fighting against (See empire strikes back on why Obi Wan didn't want to tell Luke about Darth Vader).
NORG knew about the anti-sorceress task force, he just didn't care about it past the point the mercenary aspect started generating money. I mean it's the fate of the world that hangs in the balance, you really think NORG is this honest character? He literally decided it'd be best to just serve the sorceress which is the equivalent to conceding to Hitler. It's like hey I wanna start a company to combat climate change, oh you think doing this side thing will help with sustainability? Well ok. Hey there's this opportunity to completely get rid of climate change forever! oh you don't care about that? well... ok, like that was the whole point I got into this, so I guess we're going to have conflict now.
I hate to say this but, you've been fooled by NORG.
The Garden facility is based on ancient technology that withstood the Lunar Cry, he has no idea what the facility was mostly for other than it made a good defensive base for operations, he says it himself:
I mean if you hate the character you hate the character but I'm just clearing up motives and plot points.
author=StormCrow
(wouldn't it have been much less convoluted just to kill yourself rather than plant the "SeeD" of a paramilitary organization to do it in 15 years or whatever?)
Ultimecia had not taken full control of her yet. And as demonstrated Ultimecia would have just possessed someone else and likely harder to track down. The plan long-term was for SeeD to defeat the sorceress head on without knowledge on how to exactly to pull it off.
author=StormCrow
* USED EXPERIMENTAL MAGITEK ON ORPHANS WHILST KNOWING FULL WELL IT COULD CAUSE THEM BRAIN DAMAGE AND TELLING THEM TO IGNORE ALL OF ITS CRITICS
I wouldn't say brain damage, just early memory loss that actually can be recovered through discovery and reminiscence. Considering the main party would also be conflicted about killing their Matron it's actually pretty convenient to not know who you're fighting against (See empire strikes back on why Obi Wan didn't want to tell Luke about Darth Vader).
author=StormCrow
* Scammed a yellow George Lucas creature with a giant distended nutsack for a chin into giving him the money to start SeeD under FALSE PRETENSES (seriously, imagine for a second you're NORG, a neutral greedy potential investor. The pitch you're given is: give me 50 billion gil so I can train an elite sect of warriors to murder my wife in the future, because a witch from the future is going to possess her? You gonna invest? No fucking way.) What testacleface agreed to was to fund a mercenary outfit.
NORG knew about the anti-sorceress task force, he just didn't care about it past the point the mercenary aspect started generating money. I mean it's the fate of the world that hangs in the balance, you really think NORG is this honest character? He literally decided it'd be best to just serve the sorceress which is the equivalent to conceding to Hitler. It's like hey I wanna start a company to combat climate change, oh you think doing this side thing will help with sustainability? Well ok. Hey there's this opportunity to completely get rid of climate change forever! oh you don't care about that? well... ok, like that was the whole point I got into this, so I guess we're going to have conflict now.
I hate to say this but, you've been fooled by NORG.
author=StormCrow
* Sends Squall into the depths of Balamb Garden to activate its transport mechanism, for no reason withholding everything he knows about the origin and nature of the Garden.
The Garden facility is based on ancient technology that withstood the Lunar Cry, he has no idea what the facility was mostly for other than it made a good defensive base for operations, he says it himself:
Headmaster Cid: "This building used to be a shelter, long before it was
remodeled into the Garden as we know it."
Headmaster Cid: "Use that key to open the lock on the elevator. Opening the
lock will give you access to the MD level. Rumor has it that
further below the MD level, there is some kind of control
system. It was used when this place was still a shelter, so
I've never seen it. And I have no idea what it does. All I know
is that it was used for the shelter, so it might prove
effective against the missiles. That's what I'm betting on."
I mean if you hate the character you hate the character but I'm just clearing up motives and plot points.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Sgt M
I meant this more as a "There is a literal business-related reason for this" kind of thing. I'm not really sure where you're drawing cynicism from.
Presumably "all art must only ever be made for art reasons, and not commercial, or else it is tainted forever with cynicism."
Hey, yo, guys I was warned for a previous post (someone decided something I said was out of context for what I actually meant, which is that Japan is culturally very different from the US, and complained about it reading something very different into it). To be clear, I was NOT advocating anything, I was admitting Japan is a different country, has different values, and as part of those different values, contains shows that have characters adventuring and behaving in ways that might seem shocking to ppl in the States. I apologize for nothing with regard to Hollywood, though. California has the biggest bunch of hypocrites in the US.
I'm happy to change the post, but I also wasn't pleased with being warned about this in the first place. Can we ummmm drop this topic? Thanks.
I'm happy to change the post, but I also wasn't pleased with being warned about this in the first place. Can we ummmm drop this topic? Thanks.
StormCrow
2877
author=Soozauthor=Sgt MPresumably "all art must only ever be made for art reasons, and not commercial, or else it is tainted forever with cynicism."
I meant this more as a "There is a literal business-related reason for this" kind of thing. I'm not really sure where you're drawing cynicism from.
Well, kinda sort of. A bit more like: "the only reason for this is to make more $$$" is fairly cynical, of them, Sgt M, not of you. I have no problem with art that's aiming to make a profit, as long as there is some degree of artistic integrity or at least the creator is creating something they love, whether or not it's art. If the primary/only concern is making money, then it's not art, it's entertainment, and very likely it's shit, too. As a creator, when other creators are absolutely shameless sellouts and/or whores, it does not endear me to them (I'm looking at you Stephanie Meyer/50 Shades Lady).
@Tonberry
I was mainly just exaggerating for comedic effect a la the Zach Morris is trash videos. Esp. w/ stuff like arguing for sympathy for NORG, etc.
...though I do think Cid Kramer is essentially a coward and fool who abdicated his responsibilities to teenagers at the critical moment he most needed to be leading those teenagers, I don't actually hate the character as a character, just as a person. And I remain baffled that a total softy with no discernible combat skills or experience became the leader of a paramilitary/mercenary outfit regardless of the extenuating circumstances.
Squall I dislike as a character because he just marinates in teenage wangst for most of the game. He's never been able to wrap his mind around the whole "no man is an island" thing which is a very easy concept to grasp. "People need other people to rely on" is not a very profound realization. It's something every sane human being kind of knows by long before they're Squall's age.
On top of it, Squall is a big jerk to almost everyone almost all the time. He thinks he is too cool for school and doesn't once actually get called out for his shit attitude. And the biggest emotional development he shows is...finally not ignoring the beautiful girl who has been (kind of inexplicably) throwing herself at him over and over? But I mean...I can't argue with the point that compared with Seifer (who as annoying as he is and as satisfying it is to kick his ass over and over, ultimately I pity more than anything else, he's a young stupid teenager being manipulated by an extratemporal force of inconceivable age and power, it's really quite unfair) Squall is like a paragon of emotional maturity.
He's not a terrible protagonist. Virtually the entire cast of FFX is worse. But I guess my issue could maybe best be summed up as...he starts the game apparently somewhere on the autistic spectrum or at the very least not neurotypical and his character arc is that he essentially becomes neurotypical and that's really profoundly not how autism or anything else works.
I mean, if I had written the game, Squall and Rinoa would definitely have had the uncomfortable... "so, you banged Seifer last year and I'm essentially getting his sloppy seconds?" talk because that seems like a big deal so yeah I mean. I'm weird. I'll be the first to admit that.
Hey, bulma, I'm very sorry you got warned. Considering that my last five posts have been at least 75% about FF8, I will personally shut up for a while, but I'd kind of prefer we not drop the topic of young protagonists in jRPGs if anyone else has anything to say about it. Like, it reads a little like you're asking for my topic to get locked or buried because you managed to draw a warning in it? If that's not what you meant, then I'm sorry, it's all good.
LordBlueRouge
2143
author=Darken
The story provides a lot of effective commentary on why it's not a good idea to send young people into worldly political situations. Almost every plot point in disc 1 is pushed forward by typical character youth mistakes (Seifer being too overconfident in Dollet, Zell revealing information about Garden through Seifer's taunting, Seifer being seduced by the dark side with the sorceress literally calling him a little boy,Rinoa potentially screwing up the mission because of her rebelliousness against her father, Irvine not being able to make the shot due to the knowledge about who took care of them etc.). These are flaws that might not have happened had these characters grew up and not done these things for the first time.
Reading Darken's analysis of Final Fantasy 8 makes me want to check this game out again.
When inklings first came out about Final Fantasy 8 on the internet in 97'. I remember I was in the computer lab and they showed Squall, the gun sword and said it was gonna be an rpg with a love story - I guess I was disappointed at the time, because when the game finally came out in 1999, I think I was too young to understand a lot of the ideas or concepts that were going on. I was expecting a more traditional love story like Lunar: Eternal Blue; whether or not someone can put personal love aside in order to save the world.
But the way Darken talks about it, it sounds like Final Fantasy 8 was more like the Ferris Bueller of JRPGs, which is really cool - teens thrown into situations where they don't entirely understand the consequences, but in the end, they learn to, through their own mistakes.
I'm sure someone has mentioned this already at some point. But what makes this thread so interesting is that, it's not just JRPGs that do this, but it's TV Shows, movies and novels as well. It took me awhile to figure this out, but when a writer, decides to skew their characters to a particular age. They're usually just trying to explore the concepts and inner conflicts that come with that age and not necessarily writing what actual teenagers or 16 year olds sound like.
Kind of like how Ralph Macchio was 22, when he was asked to play 15-year-old Daniel LaRusso in Karate Kid, cause he looked the part and had the acting chops to do it. (…Did anyone see My Cousin Vinney? Fucking great movie - Secret Best Fourth Karate Kid Movie!)
There are some other great examples, I can't think of them at the moment. But the point is, when writers use 16 year old characters for these stories, they're usually writing idealized versions of these characters for story purposes.
(sorry; I'm writing this half tired - I'm probably gonna regret this later)
Desertopa
775
I think the pragmatic angle, that JRPG developers are primarily targeting a teen-or-younger audience, and want characters they can relate to, is a big part of the answer. And Japan is such a youth-fixated culture that, apart from video games, a huge proportion of seinen manga, or works targeted at men 18-30, focus on characters who're too young to be in the target demographic.
For what it's worth though, when Final Fantasy VII came out, I, as a preteen felt like Cloud was just around the right age for and RPG protagonist. Old enough to substantially grow and mature over the course of the narrative, in practical mechanical terms as well as characterization (if you have a protagonist who spans the gap from level 7 to 99 at the age of 31, it kind of calls for a narrative reason why they're going through such prodigious skill development at that age,) but also old enough to be trusted with adult responsibilities and treated as an adult by other adults.
When Final Fantasy VIII came out, I was still considerably younger than the main characters, but I was disappointed by the decision to move them in a younger direction, and while I could see what the writers were going for, I still found the characters' emotional immaturity frustrating. I think it's a good example of something that may have been consistent with what the writers were aiming for, but wasn't necessarily a good direction to take in the first place.
For what it's worth though, when Final Fantasy VII came out, I, as a preteen felt like Cloud was just around the right age for and RPG protagonist. Old enough to substantially grow and mature over the course of the narrative, in practical mechanical terms as well as characterization (if you have a protagonist who spans the gap from level 7 to 99 at the age of 31, it kind of calls for a narrative reason why they're going through such prodigious skill development at that age,) but also old enough to be trusted with adult responsibilities and treated as an adult by other adults.
When Final Fantasy VIII came out, I was still considerably younger than the main characters, but I was disappointed by the decision to move them in a younger direction, and while I could see what the writers were going for, I still found the characters' emotional immaturity frustrating. I think it's a good example of something that may have been consistent with what the writers were aiming for, but wasn't necessarily a good direction to take in the first place.
