WHAT ANNOYS YOU IN A GAME?

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What annoys you when playing an RPG game?

I really only have one thing that annoys me and that is constant leveling up. I just hate games where you have to do it for hours and hours just to defeat a few bosses.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
I really hate it when I recognize resources. It just cheapens the experience for me, sorry.
I hate games that ask you "do you really want to use that potion/medicine/etc?" when you obviously wanted to use it otherwise you wouldn't have been clicking on it in the first place. Prime example: Suikoden V.

I hate not having camera angles that allow me to see everything in a 3D game. I'd rather play a flat sprite based 2D game and see everything than a 3D game where the 3D gets in the way. I want to be able to see HOW to get on those stairs, okay?! Don't draw them and not let me see exactly how to go up them!

I'm extremely disatisfied with repetition. Be it constant level grind in the same patch of grass to defeat a boss or being lost in the same dungeon fo hours, I get frustrated easily. I hate looking at the same battle background/monsters/area of that world for too long. I don't get as much time to play as I would like to and I would like to make the most of the time I have to play. >.< That's why I don't want to make any game that depends on someone level grinding or being in the same place too long unless they put themselves there. I hate it, I would not program it. Then again, there are some games that dispite my hatred for the constant leveling, I love the game to pieces, like Dragon Warrior VII.
I hate being railroaded. When a party member asks me "Do you really want to kill him?" and I say yes and then the member asks again "You can't mean that you really want to kill him?" and I say yes. And I say yes. And I say yes. Until I'm forced to say no becaues the game can't continue otherwise.

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU GIVE ME A CHOICE IF IT DOESN'T MATTER

Ehrm. But I also dislike other railroadings. But those really obvious ones are the ones that I hate the most.

But other railroady things that I hate is those completely unconnected thing. "The door is locked. It will be unlocked once you do a quest on the other side of the world that has no connection to this door." (a.k.a The Plot-Driven Door.)
-I hate leveling, not just is it annoying that in most cases even with the best strategy you still need level to have CHANCE against some enemy, but also if you go and fight to your heart´s content you may end up overlevel and own enemies too easily. It also gives a chance for dumb ppl to claim "I finished X ultra hard RPG, I am very good gamer!" when all they did was sit pressing attack button while their mind was somewhere else.

Only excetion is when you use exp to customize your character in irreversible ways to the point where a bad build/skill choice might fuck you up for good, as long as there is a "good build" for each kind of player.

-I HATE equipment upgrading (maybe even more than leveling) because most of the time you just get to a new town and you get to check shops and you barely has a choice: you just buy the next most powerful thing of each equipmnent for each character, which is just a mindless chore, then you have to sell the old stuff back. On top of that, whenever there is an equip with a special property (inflict/resist status/element) said item will soon be outdated in favour of something which is overal better. So where is the strategy in chosing equipment? Also no, a steel sword won´t cut meat 200x more than Iron one, it may just take longer to break clashing against bones/armor.

I want to go to an equip store and just find different brands of balanced itens to buy according the different needs. Maybe an armor which gives +10 Defense then an armor which gives +7 defense but +3 agility or other which gives +2 defense but makes me VERY resistant to ice.

-I hate the classic predictable and very artificial RPG flow where you go to town, buy stuff, talk to NPCs, then walk on map, reach dungeon, fight ramdom monsters, kill boss then town again... It is sick :P Every hell hole shitty cavern has a damn boss, every town sells every equip your party needs and NPCs only give you the info you want or ramdom one line stuff about their lame artificial lives. Also dungeons follow an incredibly predictable architeture to the point I always know which way to go for loot and to find the boss.

I think we need more vilages being raid, more safe camp spots and meeting other adventurers/soldiers in dungeons, bosses which appear in unexpected places and dungeons which... oh no boss there :O

-I usually hate last dungeons: If the game is bad I know the ending already and I will be too lazy to level up for the most dificult and probably boring dungeon.

If game is good I may just get depressed that my wonderful adventure is going to end...

Best ways to solve this: Don´t let me know it is the last dungeon, make previous dungeons seem like they would be the last to the point I stop believing when characters say "this will be our last battle" and of course, store a lot of unsolved things for the end and let them all hanging for the whole game, the ending is the time for answers, not before the last dungeons as Square loves to do. If I have all the answers I can basically predict the ending.

-I hate looong walks though empty spaces, ramdom encounters just make it worse

-I hate ramdom encounters, I can play games with that, but I´d rather have everything touch based.

-I hate pure healers/pacifist characters, if you can´t at least kill something, stay in your church/hospital and let the brave ppl do the dirty job you sissy cowards. Death to White Mages.

-I hate when everything depends on kids/teenagers. I don´t mind some young heroes here and there, but decisions should be made by adults, the older and more experienced the better.

--I hate the platonic relationships involving the dumb/shy/cold hero and the shy/avoidant/religious girl which stay just indirect until the end and stays like that. No kisses, hugs, marriage, sex, no concrete relationship, nothing, just shitty anime cliched insituations of interest. Better make everyone just friends than that.

-I hate when the villain feels more right to my ideals than the hero, or more developed, this makes me think I am playing the wrong side. It almost made me quit playing Tales of Phantasia and when I beat it I was still hating Cless for his stupidity.

-I hate having a specific main hero in a party who I can´t relate to (most of the time I relate to the older experienced character/mentor ) but is there and I can´t dismiss to put on a better/more interesting character. And even when I can, the hero is the best playable character which is still not fair. FF6 was the only game that handled this issue perfectly. I wonder why in hell it was not done again (it should become a fucking LAW :P). I don´t mind any of that with single heroes (Link, Alundra, Slade (IGV), neither with small parties (Wild Arms).

-I hate having battles in puxzle areas, I want to either fight or solve a puzzle.

-I HATE HATE HATE when story and game mechanics clash, it is not hard at all to at least deceive the player into thinking things work the same in and out of battles and Phantasy Star IV is there to show proof. If something kills a character outside battle the rest of the party should try to use regular means to revive/heal the fallen friend and if it doesn´t work I want an explation of how come someone can endure NUKES but dies by a regular sword hit. Was the blade poisoned? did it has any magic to it? Even if the characters are not sure, they should be surprised and concerned because it was something different than what happens REGULARLY in battle :P

-As Suzu, I hate repeition, staying in the same area, fight the same enemies with the same skills... boring

-I hate the anti ecologic monster devastation in RPGs, no matter how furry and defenseless a monster is it will attack you or you are able to attack it, even if your characters claim to be fighting for nature, life and good. Pitting monsters to fighting arenas is just as cruel. I could see an amoral hero doing those things, but not your typical jRPG hero.

I think humans are far better "monsters" since most of the time, we have more conscience of what we do, so when we fight someone, it is instinct and if villain human goes against me I do have A LOT of pleasure giving then some bloody pain and tormenting death :P

Well there is probably more... :P
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
Holy Clest. You have some good points there.


Anyway, I dislike bad menus and tilevomit.
Tile vomit? LOL That is bad too (assuming I got what you meant :P).

And note some of my complaints are just personal matters, others I considere general design issues.

Shinnan had a good point too: I personally don´t mind linearity, but if it is linear and I don´t have a choice... DON´T ASK ME! :)
i'm gonna go with Clest's answer. My sentiments are in there somewhere!
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20836
My sentiments are pretty much opposite of Clest. :) I am quite fond of the "old school" RPG game mechanics (because I am old and stodgy).

I hate it when I can't upgrade or improve my heroes in any meaningful way (I'm looking at you Link!)
Oh boy its HATE HATE HATE time! :D


- More words are not better! Some writers love to write words upon words of garbage, dragging out the game to intolerable levels. Get to the point, say it clearly and keep it concise.

- Large segments of no/little gameplay. I'd like to play the game, not watch a bunch of boring cutscenes about whatever or deal with huge god damn tutorial stages. Twilight Princess is a huge offender of this, it takes hours to get into the game and until you do its boring as watching paint dry.

- An extention of above: Huge plot dumps. Pacing is your friend, keeping everything bottled up and then giving it all in one go is a terrible way to pace a plot. Or at least learn some foreshadowing.

- Lack of remappable controls. I have a gamepad. In fact I have three and I shouldn't have to download a keyremapperor jump through similar hoops to be able to use the gamepad (or just reassigning keys to personal preference). Vicky is terrible for this and its the only program I know of (besides HoI2, made by the same team) that actually uses that Pause button on the keyboard!

- I don't mind random encounters as long as there's time between each encounter. I absolutely hate finishing one encounter, then one/two steps later there's another encounter! Give me some breathing room and let me walk around and do stuff besides this endless stream of fights! This can also apply to touch encounters, like finding a room filled with bad guys and its impossible to maneuver around them. Hell, I'd say that's even worse than random encounters because one of them you're at the mercy of the RNG and the other is a huge 'Fuck You' that the developer threw at you.

- I know Clest mentioned it, but stupid obstacles. Shit like 'The door/chest is locked, better find a key!' when the party is a four man army that can drop meteors on dragons and ancient demons but they're beaten by a lock. There are better obstacles than that; use them.

- Filler dungeons. A dungeon that serves no purpose besides to pad the game. Nothing happens in them, they don't convey anything, they're just there. Even worse is if the reason you have to go through them is rediculous ("The bridge is out! We better go through this huge fucking cave!" "Well I better go home. I hope the forest between the city and my house isn't filled with too many monsters" "I don't want you to walk five meters and beat up some guards, so go through this dungeon instead! PS it is a hundred times longer and I'm going to beat up those guards anyways when you're done"). At least have something involving the story or characters happen in the dungeon, even characters talking with one another as you progress through the dungeon.

- Fuck You bosses. Enemies like the MagiMaster from FF6 are great examples. You just went through a long dungeon filled with tough encounters (assume you didn't just Moogle Charm your way and you don't know how to tear FF6 to pieces), you reach the boss and after a long fight he suddenly just kills you. No warning. I hope you enjoy climbing the tower again! Double fury generated if there's some long cutscene before the fight. FFMQ had a perfect system: If you died against the boss you could restart the boss in the same state as when the fight started at no cost. This doesn't make the game easier, it just makes it less infuriating. This isn't the NES era with invisible entrances to endless dungeons with scores of fake exit.

- Overly complex and unintuitive interfaces. It shouldn't take rocket science to figure out what stuff does in the menu and how to get to it. Star Ocean 2 is the worst offender, it took me far too long to figure out how to even get into the item creation menu and SO3 had an 'Attack' and 'Defense' stat you could feed points into but they actually adjusted AI not stats which is completely counterintuitive since right above them you could pump points into increasing HP and MP.

- ECM that can deflect bullets. Fuck you Morgan I don't want to missile joust you I just want you die! (I know its not an RPG
)


author=Clest link=topic=2479.msg45321#msg45321 date=1227020334
-I usually hate last dungeons: If the game is bad I know the ending already and I will be too lazy to level up for the most dificult and probably boring dungeon.

If game is good I may just get depressed that my wonderful adventure is going to end...

Best ways to solve this: Don´t let me know it is the last dungeon, make previous dungeons seem like they would be the last to the point I stop believing when characters say "this will be our last battle" and of course, store a lot of unsolved things for the end and let them all hanging for the whole game, the ending is the time for answers, not before the last dungeons as Square loves to do. If I have all the answers I can basically predict the ending.

If there's a bunch of fake final battles, how would you make the player feel like he's making progress? I'd probably be fustrated at a game that went "Final dungeon! Oh sorry the boss is in another castle/The boss ran away after you beat up on him/PLOT TWIST A challenger appears! Go hunt him down and kill him". I can see the deception of a fake final dungeon working once in a game with good plot reasons, but beyond that I think it would annoy the player more. Plus if its the first fake final dungeon, how do you know its fake and not cause the "I don't want to finish the game"?

Using a dungeon that the player doesn't know is the final dungeon also hurts. There's little to no buildup of the final battle and it can cause an abrupt end to the game that can make players feel like they're hanging or the victims of "Well there was this story and then it suddenly ended" kinda like KotoR2 (although that was more "Final dungeon but it really fucking sucks")
ROFL about FF6 Mage Master, when I fought him I didn´t even know what Life 3 did :P And it took me a day or two of fill play find out.

Another hate point (told you there was more):

-I hate when normal battles are plenty and easily, for me the game could have few battles but each being boss battle level, I don´t want one/two turns kills anywhere in a game, I want inteligent challenge full time (at least after first dungeon so I know about mechanics in the game). Developers focus too much on bosses and just toss any ramdom shaped shit at you in normal battles... reminds me of one of those RPG cliches "If you meet Budha in the battlefield, kill him!"
-Lack of REAL save ponts. I've seen only 1 RPG like this (Swordcraft Stories or something like that), but it really upset me cuz it was an otherwise awesome game! It had a Majora's Mask style of save point, but when you died, it was Game Over.

-Completely Random Points for Advancement. Kinda hard to desribe, but teh best example is in Silent hill 2 where you had to go to a trailer to read a note to tell you to go to a bar, where you would find a map that would tell you where to go. But no one tells you where the trailer is, or indeed, that you need to go there. My very first play of SH2, I was wandering for hours trying to figure out wth I needed to do.

-Lack of camera control/Bad camera control.

-Random Plot 360s. This is mostly a problem with Indigo Prophecy, but I'm sure other games have done it too. I'm gunna rant on it a minute but there's spoilers so...
It starts off nice enough - You've been mindjacked and killed a man and are now on the run from the law while trying to figure out what made you murder him. It's all very well done, making the player question almost every point of teh game. But about halfway through the game, it completely abandons any subtlty it had. It gives the main character superpowers, and introduces Ancient cults whose objectives include total world domination.

That is not the Kind of storytelling that I enjoy. There needs to be reasoning for actions! >_<
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=2479.msg45345#msg45345 date=1227028693
author=Clest link=topic=2479.msg45321#msg45321 date=1227020334
-I usually hate last dungeons: If the game is bad I know the ending already and I will be too lazy to level up for the most dificult and probably boring dungeon.

If game is good I may just get depressed that my wonderful adventure is going to end...

Best ways to solve this: Don´t let me know it is the last dungeon, make previous dungeons seem like they would be the last to the point I stop believing when characters say "this will be our last battle" and of course, store a lot of unsolved things for the end and let them all hanging for the whole game, the ending is the time for answers, not before the last dungeons as Square loves to do. If I have all the answers I can basically predict the ending.

If there's a bunch of fake final battles, how would you make the player feel like he's making progress? I'd probably be fustrated at a game that went "Final dungeon! Oh sorry the boss is in another castle/The boss ran away after you beat up on him/PLOT TWIST A challenger appears! Go hunt him down and kill him". I can see the deception of a fake final dungeon working once in a game with good plot reasons, but beyond that I think it would annoy the player more. Plus if its the first fake final dungeon, how do you know its fake and not cause the "I don't want to finish the game"?

Using a dungeon that the player doesn't know is the final dungeon also hurts. There's little to no buildup of the final battle and it can cause an abrupt end to the game that can make players feel like they're hanging or the victims of "Well there was this story and then it suddenly ended" kinda like KotoR2 (although that was more "Final dungeon but it really fucking sucks")

Well, it is all a matter of execution, fake final dungeons were used in many RPGs before with sucess (FF6 did it A LOT of times... Magitek Facility, then Ester World gate, then Crescent Island then Floating Continent... The game essentially kept you always ready for a final confront once you get the fast travel means (airship).

Phantasy Star 4 does that a lot too and in very conving ways and that was always good when you saw a cutscene thinking it was the ending but then BAM new disaster, what he hell happened? let´s find out! Far better than "okay, the villain is there but we need to collet those things and find X weapon to defeat him."

As for the last dungeon being a surprise, I get what you mean, but again it comes with execution and ties in with your complaint about dungeons: It should be a very dense event dungeon with many things leading to a climax, just that unless you feel like going out for something else, you are already there and the last boss should be in a room near you, meaning that if you are already there, you are probably ready for the boss too.

Note that in my idea, the ending should be also interactive, you just see the scenes by trigering then (aside from what happens quite shortly after boss dies) with that you can still do quest or have some optional dungeons and small things you might want to know about how ppl and the world are doing after all hell broke loose and then you put things back on place :P
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9219
I don't like situations where bosses who are really hard trick me into thinking they are INTENTIONALLY IMPOSSIBLE BOSSES (you know, ones the story requires me to lose to) and so I stop trying and the next scene isn't the next scene, it's game over.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
author=Max McGee link=topic=2479.msg45389#msg45389 date=1227041529
I don't like situations where bosses who are really hard trick me into thinking they are INTENTIONALLY IMPOSSIBLE BOSSES (you know, ones the story requires me to lose to) and so I stop trying and the next scene isn't the next scene, it's game over.

Oh $W*&%(# yes. I'm pretty much against FORCED GAME OVERS anyway (just show the stabby-stabby outside of battle, or make the characters uncontrollable plz).
I liked what Star Ocean two did with defeated situations: You had to give your all still because you needed to survive at least X minutes against the boss, then the boss devasted you be it in battle or a cutscene, but it was still a challege so whatever itens and other spendables were not used in vain :P
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9219
Yes, I do quite like fights where you just need to survive X turns or whatever.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
I HATE games with ZERO customization of characters. If I play one more RPG where I level up, learn magic spells and get higher stats from leveling up, and THATS IT... I'm going to scream.

Going along with that...

I HATE games with really uncreative skillsets that all basically do the same damn thing, with different graphics and power levels. Put some thought into your skill sets!

I HATE massively unbalanced gameplay. Yay, made 8 characters for choices, but OrlanduCloud can kill the earth with a belch. Overpowered/broken skills that are easy to access are epic failure. I'm looking at you, FF6, with your Gem Box + Economizer + Ultima.

I HATE when quest objectives are given to you at the end of a 15 minute cutscene filled with useless blather, so I just skipped through it anyway and missed that I needed to find a hairbrush and bring it to the old lady in the house next to the dock.

I HATE games whose creators clearly did not play test them for challenge curve. I'm sick of the first battle taking forever or killing me because it's the FIRST BATTLE and no one expects it to be a ball-buster.

I KINDA DONT LIKE Games with obvious sexist undertones. Same old teenage boy playing a swordsman and plucky girl healing him. Try a female warrior or a male priest some time.

I HATE long cutscenes filled with tons of elipses. (...)

I HATE gratuitous violence. Violence is good, but it has to have a reason to exist, real meaning behind it.

I LIKE equipment upgrading, but I HATE equipment upgrading when all it involves is higher base power or defense. That is so boring. My current project has a large amount of weapons, but one could argue that over HALF of them are end-game viable, depending on how you use characters.

probably a lot more.
author=harmonic link=topic=2479.msg45427#msg45427 date=1227047973
I HATE games with ZERO customization of characters. If I play one more RPG where I level up, learn magic spells and get higher stats from leveling up, and THATS IT... I'm going to scream.

Going along with that...

I HATE games with really uncreative skillsets that all basically do the same damn thing, with different graphics and power levels. Put some thought into your skill sets!

I KINDA DONT LIKE Games with obvious sexist undertones. Same old teenage boy playing a swordsman and plucky girl healing him. Try a female warrior or a male priest some time.
1. Then please don't play any of my games...I used whatever came with VX. >.<
2. Hey I might actually think of some crazy weird skills... =O
3. ONE of my games has 2 female warriors and a male priest that uses ice element.

Anyways, I hate games with a boring storyline. (Oh wait is my storyline boring? I hope not >.<) You know, some hero goes off to destroy this dragon or whatever. Oh which reminds me...If the final boss IS a dragon, I'll quit that game and give a VERY bad rating to the developer. Dragon slaying isn't my thing.

author=Max McGee link=topic=2479.msg45419#msg45419 date=1227046675
Yes, I do quite like fights where you just need to survive X turns or whatever.
Do you like long fights? Just wondering.

@Clest:Some of the things I hate are in there too. And I do have human monsters in one of my games.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
14893
I'm guilty of some of the stuff mentioned in here so far, but not much of it. These are the kinds of things I try to keep in mind when I'm making my games.

As for the things I hate, well...

I hate it when descriptions of spells or items don't help or are nonexistant. I sometimes see these flashy descriptions given to weapons and spells that are supposed to be cool, but it doesn't actually tell me anything about what the does! Take a fire spell, for example, with a description that says "Burns an enemy with fiery wrath." All I get out of that is its a fire attack and it hits one foe. How powerful is it? Can it cause a status problem? Is there any accuracy involved?

While we're on the subject of elements, I hate it when they're present but meaningless. There's usually the basics like Fire, Ice, and Lightning, but it's almost impossible to tell what monsters are vulnerable to what elements, and by the time you figure it out, you could've stabbed them all to death anyway.

And, on the subject of enemies, I hate it when enemies are so weak that they go down in one hit. This really bothered me in the early Final Fantasies (1&2), where eventually, a good swordsman can take down a baddy in a single blow. Then, they compensate for the enemies' survival chances by putting them in huge groups and making their attack power unreasonably high.

I also hate useless status problems. Refer again to FF2. I once leveled up one of the status effect spells to a very high level, and cast it at a group of about six monsters. One of them was affected, and the spell wore off the very next turn. Meanwhile, my other party members had managed to one-shot the rest of the buggers anyway. It's not like status effects have to be useless, just sometimes people are so worried about game balance that they nerf things beyond any usefulness whatsoever!

There's other stuff I hate about RPGs, but I'll leave it at that for now.