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Closeauthor=Rei- link=topic=2482.msg45253#msg45253 date=1227002872
Basically what will lure people on the site, is if it has something to offer.
People don't just join for the community all the time. Some do, but it's not the first and most common thing probably. Can't expect to gain masses just "by being another RM" community, even though one-of-a-kind or different than others, there need to be uh,
some catch.
Easiest way to get masses would put up a LOT of RMVX help, resources and specialization, but that will probably attract only a lot of eager newbies. x_X
What attracts common devs, is probably active feedback, tutorials and articles of the theory and generally good standards. I mean, if we have good quality of site content and active interaction with it. If there would be few different type of contributers that kind of "do work", and weekly _interesting_ contributes to the site.
Podcast is pretty unique example of this. But these things would need to be advertised too.
And another thing that attracts active developers, is active community, a big one, where they can advertise their projects and receive feedback.
Basically. If the member finds the place worthwhile, if he can achieve and maybe gain something. If there is possibilities and open doors, it welcomes people.
That's just my opinion.
This is good advice. The thing is, we need to get people to actually DO these things. This site's content is pretty much user generated.
iamnot
48
Maybe for some artistic talent (be it music/art/whatever}, we could have a section of the site to host some of their things. So you could go through and look at the different pictures people submitted and comment/rate them, etc, and the same with music.
I guess that would require WIP to make some changes the the site? (or implant them in RMN3, and it might be more work than he wants to do?)
I guess that would require WIP to make some changes the the site? (or implant them in RMN3, and it might be more work than he wants to do?)
That wouldn't probably work, as graphical artist go to Deviantart and musicians well I dunno, last.fm?
As the site focuses to indie game development anyway, the features should stay inside those frames. But games cover many sectors too, ie. digital art, pixel art, music, but what I'm saying is that there won't probably be as simple solutions like "lol let's throw a gallery together."
Maybe we should start thinking this more, like, as a members of the community we could see some effort, do active thinking, post those ideas here and maybe get some cool features/activities for the site.
Which is why Feld created this topic after all. I'm just saying that it actaully requires a bit more brainstorming, than simple solutions.
As the site focuses to indie game development anyway, the features should stay inside those frames. But games cover many sectors too, ie. digital art, pixel art, music, but what I'm saying is that there won't probably be as simple solutions like "lol let's throw a gallery together."
Maybe we should start thinking this more, like, as a members of the community we could see some effort, do active thinking, post those ideas here and maybe get some cool features/activities for the site.
Which is why Feld created this topic after all. I'm just saying that it actaully requires a bit more brainstorming, than simple solutions.
As the site focuses to indie game development anyway, the features should stay inside those frames. But games cover many sectors too, ie. digital art, pixel art, music, but what I'm saying is that there won't probably be as simple solutions like "lol let's throw a gallery together."
I want to focus on this. This is a game dev site, so I'm not privy seeing things changed around just to see some more people. However, like Rei said, game dev has a lot of subsections, like art, music, etc. So, our issue is getting some talented people here to spice up the place with their talents and maybe even help people out on their games.
-How about finding some pixel artists?
-Some good music and MIDI arrangers from places?
-To those with Deviantart accounts, any chance of getting some people from there?
-To those with artistic talent, any way of getting your brethren here?
Stuff like that? Any ideas or anyone willing to take some action?
Zeuzio
3787
I think we could really use some more people that are good at making midis! I mean, there isn't even a catagorie for music on the resources page.
That being said, I have no idea how to attract new members. I bet that more resources will catch some eyes, though. More contests and special events events will help too. Perhaps we can hold an RMN exclusive midi contest! Of course, I guess that Charas does that, though...
That being said, I have no idea how to attract new members. I bet that more resources will catch some eyes, though. More contests and special events events will help too. Perhaps we can hold an RMN exclusive midi contest! Of course, I guess that Charas does that, though...
Well if we're aiming to have those talented people, only... well, there's no shortcut to just get them easily here, start helping and working for us, aside money haha.
Like, whatever way we would try to advertise or bring the site out, by whatever methods, I don't know how well we could focus that just to one audience "of talented artists." Maybe by choosing correct themes and aiming the advertising at correct places could help a bit, but the other way would be to do general improvements which attract a lot of members. And with big masses there's always variety, and eventually some of them are uh, talented and stuff.
Feld, are you saying you'd like to see more talented people and artists here, or generally more members?
I'm not sure, but I'd believe a lot of artists and musicians wouldn't mind to do their stuff for video games, or work in such a projects, from what I've seen in RRR, there's plenty of musicians and artists who're looking for projects they could join. Even when I worked my old project, a composer from Capcom contacted me, asking if he could compose a soundtrack for my game.
So yeah, it's not like impossible to attract them. There should be just some hyped events or projects which catch their attention and which they want to be a part of. For RM game developers Misaos is a good example of these. I'm not saying there should be similiar kind of awarding ceremony for the artists, but something that gets their attention, however.
RMN Pixel art contest could be an example, but it was never advertised outside the site. The events don't always have to be contests, but something like that, and they need to be brought out. Whatever event is going on, there should be at least banners for each of them, and some advertising outside.
Though, how to make advertising outside the site better, than the banners alone?
Like, I don't know, but maybe it bothers some people on other communities if we make a topic that just links to a forum thread in RMN? If it doesn't, good, then we can do that.
But how about if our site has a page for the monthly events? Somekind of interface created for it. It would show the current monthly event, which usually consist of submitting somekind of conted, or focuses around creating something, or doing something interactive with the site or community.
There could be a list to earlier monthly events and the entries, possible winners, hosts and themes. These events could be anything we can think of, and have something to do with game development?
I'm just saying, that something spiffy that people can join and be a part of, which is well organized and established, will catch the attention and can be brought more easily out to other sites and communities. Same time it would also be productive and creative.
Like, whatever way we would try to advertise or bring the site out, by whatever methods, I don't know how well we could focus that just to one audience "of talented artists." Maybe by choosing correct themes and aiming the advertising at correct places could help a bit, but the other way would be to do general improvements which attract a lot of members. And with big masses there's always variety, and eventually some of them are uh, talented and stuff.
Feld, are you saying you'd like to see more talented people and artists here, or generally more members?
I'm not sure, but I'd believe a lot of artists and musicians wouldn't mind to do their stuff for video games, or work in such a projects, from what I've seen in RRR, there's plenty of musicians and artists who're looking for projects they could join. Even when I worked my old project, a composer from Capcom contacted me, asking if he could compose a soundtrack for my game.
So yeah, it's not like impossible to attract them. There should be just some hyped events or projects which catch their attention and which they want to be a part of. For RM game developers Misaos is a good example of these. I'm not saying there should be similiar kind of awarding ceremony for the artists, but something that gets their attention, however.
RMN Pixel art contest could be an example, but it was never advertised outside the site. The events don't always have to be contests, but something like that, and they need to be brought out. Whatever event is going on, there should be at least banners for each of them, and some advertising outside.
Though, how to make advertising outside the site better, than the banners alone?
Like, I don't know, but maybe it bothers some people on other communities if we make a topic that just links to a forum thread in RMN? If it doesn't, good, then we can do that.
But how about if our site has a page for the monthly events? Somekind of interface created for it. It would show the current monthly event, which usually consist of submitting somekind of conted, or focuses around creating something, or doing something interactive with the site or community.
There could be a list to earlier monthly events and the entries, possible winners, hosts and themes. These events could be anything we can think of, and have something to do with game development?
I'm just saying, that something spiffy that people can join and be a part of, which is well organized and established, will catch the attention and can be brought more easily out to other sites and communities. Same time it would also be productive and creative.
We actually discussed this a fair bit on IRC, and Mog asked me about this specifically since I GUESS I am something of an artist. I realize the attraction many game designers have for artists because presentation in a game always helps.
The basic conclusion is this: There is no way to ramrod a bunch of artists or whatever on to the site. This is not a site ABOUT artists. It's a site about game designers(who, while they are their own kinda artist, are not the kinda artist we are discussing). I merely post my art here in passing; if I wanted to get critiqued into oblivion I could go post at conceptart.org or something.
However, that is not saying it won't be attractive to some artists. Like any other type of game maker, we will get artists of varying types as the site grows. We need to focus on building the community. As we do that, prospective artists will join as well.
My other suggestion is POST IN THE ART FORUM YOU JERKS. Artists will be more apt to post if you appear interested. Right now the Art forum is one of the slowest on the site, and some topics have been totally ignored, while garbage in the moronic stuff forum gets DOZENS of posts in the mean time. Hell, look at Orig's short story. Poor guy!
The basic conclusion is this: There is no way to ramrod a bunch of artists or whatever on to the site. This is not a site ABOUT artists. It's a site about game designers(who, while they are their own kinda artist, are not the kinda artist we are discussing). I merely post my art here in passing; if I wanted to get critiqued into oblivion I could go post at conceptart.org or something.
However, that is not saying it won't be attractive to some artists. Like any other type of game maker, we will get artists of varying types as the site grows. We need to focus on building the community. As we do that, prospective artists will join as well.
My other suggestion is POST IN THE ART FORUM YOU JERKS. Artists will be more apt to post if you appear interested. Right now the Art forum is one of the slowest on the site, and some topics have been totally ignored, while garbage in the moronic stuff forum gets DOZENS of posts in the mean time. Hell, look at Orig's short story. Poor guy!
author=Sam link=topic=2482.msg45701#msg45701 date=1227105416
... Do we really want or need an influx of new members?
Think about it.
Uh...yes?
Of course we're not hurting for new members, the site is growing fantastically, but getting talented people never hurts.
The basic conclusion is this: There is no way to ramrod a bunch of artists or whatever on to the site. This is not a site ABOUT artists. It's a site about game designers(who, while they are their own kinda artist, are not the kinda artist we are discussing). I merely post my art here in passing; if I wanted to get critiqued into oblivion I could go post at conceptart.org or something.
Yes, I remember you telling me this. However, when I say 'artist', I don't mean painters and singers, or whatnot. I mean 'artists' like pixel artists, midi composers, people who are good at Flash, etc. That way, not only can would they (if interested of course) to help game creation on the site, but vest case scenario they'd also be invaluable game creators themselves.
author=Sam link=topic=2482.msg45701#msg45701 date=1227105416
... Do we really want or need an influx of new members?
Think about it.
This is an extremely negative viewpoint.
A community's quality is based on how it is run, not the amount of people involved with it.
Edit: posted RIGHT after Mog there.
Though, to clarify, even a painter or a singer might be able to benefit someone's project. A good example of the earlier is something like Imdahl by Teo.
To be more precise...
The more the merrier, as far as artists are concerned. =)
Anaryu
8848
I'm pretty new, but I'll chime in a bit.
Rei has repeatedly hit the nail on the head; feedback and attention is (as ugly as it sounds) what makes a developer/creator post their materials regularly.
Here's a few initiatives that might lead to some better brain storming, some are things I've seen and other things I've thought of:
Academies
Back on .org (taboo, I know, but hear me out!) there used to be "Academies" where people who had the time would write-up assignments and others would do small tasks (I was involved with the Game Academy and we'd write up assignments like make a small one-room puzzle, or write a fore-shadowing scene, write an emotional scene, etc) and then they'd get feedback about what they did.
These were particularly useful for new makers who wanted quality feedback without all the "omg that sucks you need to lern to map" and the "maybe i'll try this later looks good tho" type of responses that don't help much.
Feedback Teams
Another possible initiative is a feedback "team" where people who want to review or give feedback on games can sign up, then those groups keep track of new projects that are released and someone (or more than one?) takes that on to give feedback.
Regular rewards, a cool badge, points, whatever, would be a perk of being on the team to make people join and participate; a certain amount of experience or some other criteria would have to be used to keep new people from just jumping right into the team of course.
Team Events
Many times people don't know any pixels artists, or experienced RM developers, writers, scripters, whatever. A forum for recruitment might help, but many times projects don't see completion or advancement.
One thing I thought would be neat is monthly/bi-monthly events similar to the Academies idea where a larger assignment would be given to groups of people.
The kicker is that the groups would be put together by admins from a list of interested parties who submit themselves and their skill. So maybe PersonX says they'd love to work on a short project and they can make music. PersonZ knows how to make games in RPGMaker XP, and PersonB is a writer.
Who/how those teams would be formed would be something that needs a bit of work, but short projects like that where people who otherwise would likely be unable to find help or find a project they can trust in have a place to do something.
The issue is of course what about unreliable people that say they'll help and then don't? That's a harsh reality, and it might take some work to keep people interested through some rough starts where the "fluff" members don't deliver, but it should spread pretty quickly who is like that and they'll likely not be put on teams, etc.
Team Event Version 2
Another way to approach this is that experienced admin members who want to can "organize" a project idea and gather people from a list of people who said they wanted to work on something; this way with a solid, dependable leader who can ensure everyone is doing something the project is much more likely to see completion.
Again, I imagine that the admin member wouldn't do any actual project work to give the other people the actual experience, it's just a control.
The advantage of this is that you're not trying to mix/match people into teams with no idea if it's going to work out, and if things get really bad the lead can put it on hold and replace someone.
Again the projects should be small (at least at first) and focused more on the gaining of experience/showing off of their skills.
Personal Thoughts
The same problems plague every RM/gaming site I've been on so far, and that's lots of talk, little initiative, and even less actual action.
Many times "solutions" like "Put up this technology" or "Let's let them upload stuff" or "Let them add screenshots" or "Add a new forum for it" are what you see suggested and implemented.
If you already have a good enough infrastructure, these things are useless. You need to instead mature your community so that new members learn and grow so that they BECOME like the "awesome" members that admin the site. Most of those "admins" start off at the same 'newb' level, and usually it's because they DID STUFF that they got to where they are now.
To put it simply, the ultimate goal should be to make the people DO STUFF. Only through doing will they improve, feel part of the community, and start doing stuff really makes the place stand out.
The thing that really turned me around when I was making games was a really old contest on .org called Black Tuesday. I was working on my "Epic 80 hour game of destiny" that just kept going through revisions.
The contest popped up and I thought "Hey, a good way to show off!" so I joined it. Thanks to a stubborn nature we plowed through the project and FINISHED SOMETHING. My eyes were opened. I realized that my 80-hour epic was an 8000-hour waste of time at my current state. I couldn't do what I wanted with it, and I realized just HOW much work has to go into a simple 5-hour game! I instead concentrated on smaller projects, trying out new technologies, ideas, and expanding my experience and skills.
Without that little eye-opening I'm sure I'd have dropped the project, RPG Maker XP, and continued the endless cycle of -> -> -> -> .
Getting people to finish something so they can see just what it entails and how it feels to complete a game is probably the best way to get them really started.
Those are just my thoughts however.
Rei has repeatedly hit the nail on the head; feedback and attention is (as ugly as it sounds) what makes a developer/creator post their materials regularly.
Here's a few initiatives that might lead to some better brain storming, some are things I've seen and other things I've thought of:
Academies
Back on .org (taboo, I know, but hear me out!) there used to be "Academies" where people who had the time would write-up assignments and others would do small tasks (I was involved with the Game Academy and we'd write up assignments like make a small one-room puzzle, or write a fore-shadowing scene, write an emotional scene, etc) and then they'd get feedback about what they did.
These were particularly useful for new makers who wanted quality feedback without all the "omg that sucks you need to lern to map" and the "maybe i'll try this later looks good tho" type of responses that don't help much.
Feedback Teams
Another possible initiative is a feedback "team" where people who want to review or give feedback on games can sign up, then those groups keep track of new projects that are released and someone (or more than one?) takes that on to give feedback.
Regular rewards, a cool badge, points, whatever, would be a perk of being on the team to make people join and participate; a certain amount of experience or some other criteria would have to be used to keep new people from just jumping right into the team of course.
Team Events
Many times people don't know any pixels artists, or experienced RM developers, writers, scripters, whatever. A forum for recruitment might help, but many times projects don't see completion or advancement.
One thing I thought would be neat is monthly/bi-monthly events similar to the Academies idea where a larger assignment would be given to groups of people.
The kicker is that the groups would be put together by admins from a list of interested parties who submit themselves and their skill. So maybe PersonX says they'd love to work on a short project and they can make music. PersonZ knows how to make games in RPGMaker XP, and PersonB is a writer.
Who/how those teams would be formed would be something that needs a bit of work, but short projects like that where people who otherwise would likely be unable to find help or find a project they can trust in have a place to do something.
The issue is of course what about unreliable people that say they'll help and then don't? That's a harsh reality, and it might take some work to keep people interested through some rough starts where the "fluff" members don't deliver, but it should spread pretty quickly who is like that and they'll likely not be put on teams, etc.
Team Event Version 2
Another way to approach this is that experienced admin members who want to can "organize" a project idea and gather people from a list of people who said they wanted to work on something; this way with a solid, dependable leader who can ensure everyone is doing something the project is much more likely to see completion.
Again, I imagine that the admin member wouldn't do any actual project work to give the other people the actual experience, it's just a control.
The advantage of this is that you're not trying to mix/match people into teams with no idea if it's going to work out, and if things get really bad the lead can put it on hold and replace someone.
Again the projects should be small (at least at first) and focused more on the gaining of experience/showing off of their skills.
Personal Thoughts
The same problems plague every RM/gaming site I've been on so far, and that's lots of talk, little initiative, and even less actual action.
Many times "solutions" like "Put up this technology" or "Let's let them upload stuff" or "Let them add screenshots" or "Add a new forum for it" are what you see suggested and implemented.
If you already have a good enough infrastructure, these things are useless. You need to instead mature your community so that new members learn and grow so that they BECOME like the "awesome" members that admin the site. Most of those "admins" start off at the same 'newb' level, and usually it's because they DID STUFF that they got to where they are now.
To put it simply, the ultimate goal should be to make the people DO STUFF. Only through doing will they improve, feel part of the community, and start doing stuff really makes the place stand out.
The thing that really turned me around when I was making games was a really old contest on .org called Black Tuesday. I was working on my "Epic 80 hour game of destiny" that just kept going through revisions.
The contest popped up and I thought "Hey, a good way to show off!" so I joined it. Thanks to a stubborn nature we plowed through the project and FINISHED SOMETHING. My eyes were opened. I realized that my 80-hour epic was an 8000-hour waste of time at my current state. I couldn't do what I wanted with it, and I realized just HOW much work has to go into a simple 5-hour game! I instead concentrated on smaller projects, trying out new technologies, ideas, and expanding my experience and skills.
Without that little eye-opening I'm sure I'd have dropped the project, RPG Maker XP, and continued the endless cycle of -> -> -> -> .
Getting people to finish something so they can see just what it entails and how it feels to complete a game is probably the best way to get them really started.
Those are just my thoughts however.
The same problems plague every RM/gaming site I've been on so far, and that's lots of talk, little initiative, and even less actual action.
Damn this hits the nail on the head so hard I'm tempted to close the topic.
Anaryu
8848
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2482.msg45784#msg45784 date=1227123356The same problems plague every RM/gaming site I've been on so far, and that's lots of talk, little initiative, and even less actual action.
Damn this hits the nail on the head so hard I'm tempted to close the topic.
That'd suck; this is easily the most productive topic I've seen EVER, especially thanks to Rei throwing the truth in people's faces so hard. :)
Blind
2262
author=Rei- link=topic=2482.msg45669#msg45669 date=1227093663This is a good point and I definitely regret not spreading the word among some other websites. (Pixeljoint and DeviantART, especially.) I'll certainly be sure to for future events, myself, though.
So yeah, it's not like impossible to attract them. There should be just some hyped events or projects which catch their attention and which they want to be a part of. For RM game developers Misaos is a good example of these. I'm not saying there should be similiar kind of awarding ceremony for the artists, but something that gets their attention, however.
RMN Pixel art contest could be an example, but it was never advertised outside the site. The events don't always have to be contests, but something like that, and they need to be brought out. Whatever event is going on, there should be at least banners for each of them, and some advertising outside.
Currently we have the Release Something! and Play Something! events, the Misaos (January) and we're trying to get a regular RMN podcast going.
I quite like the Feedback Teams idea (and to a lesser extent the Academies idea) and ideas for new events are always welcome!
I also would like to generate more hoopla for the Featured Game (which changes roughly every 3 weeks) and the site's game hosting abilities.
I quite like the Feedback Teams idea (and to a lesser extent the Academies idea) and ideas for new events are always welcome!
I also would like to generate more hoopla for the Featured Game (which changes roughly every 3 weeks) and the site's game hosting abilities.
TMAC
0
After a little sabbatical I'm really glad to see a buncha new active faces, possibility of regular podcasts, continuation of Play Something! and overall interaction the community has developed!
I agree, organized Feedback Teams are a good idea, as is drawing people from other areas related to game development. I run in some of the spriting circles, I'll test the waters with some of my friends and see how that goes. =D
I agree, organized Feedback Teams are a good idea, as is drawing people from other areas related to game development. I run in some of the spriting circles, I'll test the waters with some of my friends and see how that goes. =D
