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A.I. GENERATION AND RMN
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Roden
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CloseJosephSeraph
I'm ambivalent as well, but I think it's cool RMN as a website has the ability to take a stance towards this
Seeing the benefit of smaller spaces when it comes to this topic lately has been interesting. I'm glad at least that the scant few places I hang out online and submit content to have taken a line against it, at least. Definitely helps that oppressive/depressive feeling seeing AI content flood everywhere can sometimes bring to an artist (at least for me).
Hexatona
The blurriest of blurred lines will always be free content, though. It's like letting a nice guy wearing a black eagle into your bar. He's fine. He brings a friend. They're nice. And then you look up and suddenly you're a Nazi bar. And, I don't want this to become a place where AI trash outnumbers the regular creative trash :P
This feels an apt comparison based on what I've seen in a lot of places, esp image hosting sites. They let it happen and then all of a sudden half the posts in your feed are AI shit. It's just depressing to look at, annoying to have to block the tags all the time and wonder if one is untagged or something (because people inevitably start tagging specific AI engines and not generically), and its especially bad if tag blocking just blurs the thumbnail or something instead of taking it off of your feed.
Seeing that happen here, where we don't even have the frameowkr (iirc) to put blanket tag blocks on what we see, would be a shame imo.
Great, now Noel and the Tower of Doom will have to take an additional 5 months or so so I can make like 15 different FMVs to replace the AI generated ones. Great. Just wonderful. And I can't use the voiceover either for one of the bad endings. This is quite an extreme solution to a problem that doesn't even really exist. Now people will have to do everything themselves or pay someone hundreds to do it for them, which many people don't have the time or skill to pull off. I'm lucky enough to know how to draw at least decently well and I'm learning how to compose as well, but not everyone has that sort of natural talent.
Also, what about images that use AI as a base to work off of? That means I have to redraw EVERY character sprite for Chronicles Meteorfall because all of them use traced and edited AI images as bases. This decision is completely extreme and baffling. Allow people to make stuff that they want to make. AI is a tool, it is not good or evil and can make game development significantly easier. It should never be a replacement for real art, only used to make some of the harder stuff/busy work easier.
Also, what about images that use AI as a base to work off of? That means I have to redraw EVERY character sprite for Chronicles Meteorfall because all of them use traced and edited AI images as bases. This decision is completely extreme and baffling. Allow people to make stuff that they want to make. AI is a tool, it is not good or evil and can make game development significantly easier. It should never be a replacement for real art, only used to make some of the harder stuff/busy work easier.
This is off topic again and I'm not trying to be mean, but if you already have some art skill tracing over AI crap is kind of just shooting yourself in the foot, isn't it? Why deprive yourself of practise and the opportunity to learn and develop your skills further?
Also why does your RM game have 15 FMVs, thats like the episode of friends joke all over aain
It's also worth mentioning that the ethics of AI art has been a topic of discussion for a lot longer than before this decision was made. I'm sorry, but there's no way anyone put AI art in their game without having heard all the criticism of it from the artists protesting against it. If you chose to use AI generated assets regardless and now you're in a situation where your game might get denied, that's kind of on you.
KumoriCloudGames
322
Aw, shucks, now my 10 year 20 hour long AI JRPG epic, has to be canceled, because you all don't understand the greatness of Artificial Intelligence, I fired all of my fellow team members and replaced them with AI cause I believe, yet you all do not believe.
KrimsonKatt
Now people will have to do everything themselves or pay someone hundreds to do it for them, which many people don't have the time or skill to pull off. I'm lucky enough to know how to draw at least decently well and I'm learning how to compose as well, but not everyone has that sort of natural talent.
1. Yeah, people's work is worth money, including your own!
2. Skill is not a matter of "natural talent", I for example wasn't "born" an artist, I spent my entire life honing my craft which is why I can produce decent paintings relatively quickly. Very unlike pushing a button on Midjourney and producing an image that superficially resembles something a senior Riot Games artist (ew) would take 1 month and a very engorged salary to painstakingly craft :P
KrimsonKatt
Also, what about images that use AI as a base to work off of? That means I have to redraw EVERY character sprite for Chronicles Meteorfall because all of them use traced and edited AI images as bases.
To be fair I can confidently say it's generally harder to edit AI images into your own style than to just grasp an efficient workflow, and that all has the bonus that your art will look like your art, and not like Midjourney
author=Roden
This is off topic again and I'm not trying to be mean, but if you already have some art skill tracing over AI crap is kind of just shooting yourself in the foot, isn't it? Why deprive yourself of practise and the opportunity to learn and develop your skills further?
Also why does your RM game have 15 FMVs, thats like the episode of friends joke all over aain
By FMVs I mean still images. Like full-screen images seen in visual novels or in the old fire emblem games.
I'm good at art but it's hard doing anatomy and shading on my own. I'm REALLY bad at both. Using AI as a base helps fill in the gaps in my artistic skill and helps me instantly find a reference to what I'm looing for as well as get good pratice in since musstle memory is how I learn and improve. I just don't want to make bad art. I tried just drawing what I was used during middle+high school to and I didn't improve for 5+ years with bizarre anatomy and strange/stilted poses.
Tracing the outlines of AI stuff and filling in the details with my own work has greatly increased my overall art quality. Along with switching to digital of course. Drawing using AI as a base has greatly enhanced my ability when it comes to proper proportions, namely getting the right size and shape for the head and not making the legs and arms too short. Most people use movie stills to trace over anatomy with. I use AI for posing since it's hard to search through an entire movie just to find a single pose to use.
Most people learn the fundamentals of anatomy, posing, shading, etc etc and don't just "trace over movie stills".
I mean how do you know? Have you tried drawing without it? Do you actually know the proportions, the anatomy, the methods to achieve these things? This is like a live display of one of the exact reasons people have a problem with this AI crap. You're literally doing yourself a disservice and crippling your own abilities when you don't have to.
I mean how do you know? Have you tried drawing without it? Do you actually know the proportions, the anatomy, the methods to achieve these things? This is like a live display of one of the exact reasons people have a problem with this AI crap. You're literally doing yourself a disservice and crippling your own abilities when you don't have to.
author=JosephSeraphKrimsonKatt1. Yeah, people's work is worth money, including your own!
Now people will have to do everything themselves or pay someone hundreds to do it for them, which many people don't have the time or skill to pull off. I'm lucky enough to know how to draw at least decently well and I'm learning how to compose as well, but not everyone has that sort of natural talent.
2. Skill is not a matter of "natural talent", I for example wasn't "born" an artist, I spent my entire life honing my craft which is why I can produce decent paintings relatively quickly. Very unlike pushing a button on Midjourney and producing an image that superficially resembles something a senior Riot Games artist (ew) would take 1 month and a very engorged salary to painstakingly craft :P
KrimsonKatt
Also, what about images that use AI as a base to work off of? That means I have to redraw EVERY character sprite for Chronicles Meteorfall because all of them use traced and edited AI images as bases.
To be fair I can confidently say it's generally harder to edit AI images into your own style than to just grasp an efficient workflow, and that all has the bonus that your art will look like your art, and not like Midjourney
1: But I'm broke and lazy. Guess I have to work 10x as hard for inferior work done all by myself without help from AI then...
2: I had natural talent though? I was always good at art for whatever age I was at. I've been drawing religiously yet preschool and yet from 2012-2017 I barely improved if at all. Then I moved to digital and started tracing poses and using references and my art jumped up in quality massively. I drew every day from 2012-2017 all throughout middle and high school, and yet I never improved. Then as soon as I switched to digital and began more heavily using references (NOT tracing, I only traced the outlines) rather than free drawing my art quality increased dramatically. Tracing AI art allows me to do all of that without having to involve real artists as reference, which has gotten me into conflict in the past.
3: I don't fully trace the AI images, I use them as a base, drawing the outlines and then filling in the details myself. I have no clue how to draw proper anatomy or shading. And I used mainly anime AI art as bases, not midjourney which is very low quality. It's also good for brainstorming detailed character designs without having to come up with something from scratch. And honestly I think my own spin on the AI art came out pretty well, a lot better than the AI version. Here is an example:
AI
Hand Drawn
author=Roden
Most people learn the fundamentals of anatomy, posing, shading, etc etc and don't just "trace over movie stills".
I mean how do you know? Have you tried drawing without it? Do you actually know the proportions, the anatomy, the methods to achieve these things? This is like a live display of one of the exact reasons people have a problem with this AI crap. You're literally doing yourself a disservice and crippling your own abilities when you don't have to.
How exactly do I learn anatomy, posing, shading then? Just doing it? Because I drew every day for years and never improved. How AM I supported to learn these things? My solution: taking aspects from other people to make something new out of it. AI helps me learn how to do these things without copying from artists. When I try to draw on my own and it ends up just looking like crap, like this:
I praticed for years and never got better. And looked at guides and they didn't help at all. Watching others stream making art didn't help. Nothing changed until I started using references. I took and are currently taking art classes in school and I learned nothing about how to draw better. They expect you to get better just through pratice which I tried and didn't work.
What a great tool. Now you don't have to:
-Learn the fundamentals of art
-Practise anatomy, shading, form, posing, anything at all
-Express your creativity and develop a unique style
-Learn about character design, iteration, brainstorming and sourcing themes/palettes/ideas
-Bother doing all that pesky "work" and "effort" to be proud of
I wonder why people fucking hate it and don't want it on the site.
Geez, if this is what up and coming artists are gonna be like nowadays I need a damn drink.
-Learn the fundamentals of art
-Practise anatomy, shading, form, posing, anything at all
-Express your creativity and develop a unique style
-Learn about character design, iteration, brainstorming and sourcing themes/palettes/ideas
-Bother doing all that pesky "work" and "effort" to be proud of
I wonder why people fucking hate it and don't want it on the site.
Geez, if this is what up and coming artists are gonna be like nowadays I need a damn drink.
also i would not call your art "bad art" if the anatomy didn't look right or the shading was off. I would call ai art bad art because it's soulless and lazy. At least when you attempt to draw something yourself, you're doing it out of passion and creativity. Art isn't just about looking pretty.
author=KrimsonKatt
I praticed for years and never got better. And looked at guides and they didn't help at all. Watching others stream making art didn't help. Nothing changed until I started using references. I took and are currently taking art classes in school and I learned nothing about how to draw better. They expect you to get better just through pratice which I tried and didn't work.
Have you tried, y'know, commissioning an artist?
author=Sgt Mauthor=KrimsonKattHave you tried, y'know, commissioning an artist?
I practiced for years and never got better. And looked at guides and they didn't help at all. Watching others stream making art didn't help. Nothing changed until I started using references. I took and are currently taking art classes in school and I learned nothing about how to draw better. They expect you to get better just through practice which I tried and didn't work.
I can't find a good artist that fits the style I'm trying to go for that's still active and speaks english. Plus commissions are super expensive ($100+ for one image) and I'm currently unemployed and only have around $400 in the bank.
Anyways here's a better image I made without AI assistance
And here's another where I didn't use AI but did use heavy referencing
I really don't see a difference between using a outline reference like the last two and using an ai generated image as reference. They're literally the same thing, but the AI one is generated as a collage of thousands of artworks by a computer rather than being taken directly from a singular artist.
KrimsonKatt
1: But I'm broke and lazy.
Case closed.
Laziness is perfectly moral and correct. Absolutely nothing wrong with being lazy. Or with being depressed, anxious, having to grapple with a difficult daily life. But AI isn't your saviour, El*n M*sk and OpenAI won't fix your bank account or your lack of bandwidth to allocate to art.
KrimsonKatt
I had natural talent though?
Subjective. What we call "natural talent" is merely interest, hyperfocus, etc. And improvement is not linear. But, as a person that has art teaching skills, I can objectively assess which areas are lacking in your art skills and could give you directions as to how to improve them.
Because art is mostly comprised of a set of objective tools used to birth subjective ideas. And I'm going to tell you -- if you're "lazy", you're not going to sketch and re-sketch to improve your composition. You're not going to bother spending countless hours drawing from reference to build a mental library, or following many of the amazing exercises very competent artists have crafted to help improve spatial awareness, for instance. And that's alright, art can be good without these fundamentals as well, since the subjective part is what it's all about. But...
KrimsonKatt
This level of anatomic concistency is that of a professional artist. Professional artists have invested not only countless hours into their careers, but also money in tutoring. You can't expect to shortcut your way into it if you're "lazy" -- especially if you don't have the money for proper tutoring, which is immensely helpful in actually telling you where it would be more efficient for you to spend your time improving in.
KrimsonKattOr you can work 10x as easy for... Unsuperior work, all while NOT learning the anatomy you clearly are avoiding by tracing outlines, ultimately stagnating in your ability to express yourself. (Not to mention there are other better shortcuts to anatomy which can actually help you improve your art like posing dolls, even if you trace over them, ESPECIALLY if they're not anime)
Guess I have to work 10x as hard for inferior work done all by myself without help from AI then...
Also, wanna get better at anime? Study art that's not anime.
I understand AI is a tempting alternative to practicing, but you're building on a foundation that you don't have, which means your house isn't as sturdy. There's obviously the moral side to it all but I really don't wanna get in there in this post.
Seriously, you remind me a little bit of how angry my sister gets whenever I tell her that "to be decent at something, you need to have 1000h of experience doing that thing" -- I don't mean her ill, but she's the kind to start drawing, hate the results then just quit for days. She's been getting better at it, though. But still got very, very low tolerance for frustration.
EDIT: The thing that I wanted to get to: Just like you're broke, most of us are. Art is expensive because it's time consuming. For example, $100 for a full body portrait is the type of pricing you can expect from me. But I will often spend DAYS, plural, on that portrait, while working from my home office (meaning consuming my own electricity, water, food, EQUIPMENT which is very expensive ESPECIALLY here in Brazil, etc.)
When you sum that all up, $100 a day's worth of work, considering all the related expenses as well as the years and dollars upon dollars artists like me have spent on art tutoring, supplies, drawing tablets, PCs, etc, isn't really expensive at all -- it's cheap.
But if you invest that in yourself, train and practice, you'll get better.
By the way, I totally recommend something like MakeHuman for you to practice drawing your characters -- DO NOT TRACE AT ALL not even outlines if you wanna improve, just try to copy the proportins, but these sorts of character creators can be a great starting point.
And my personal recommendation for you would be to practice copying without tracing WHILE changing the view. So do an exact copy of a character, then do it seen from the side, from a little up, from a little down. Do that enough and you'll develop that spatial and anatomic awareness to be able to craft your poses and characters with relative ease!
What's really annoying me is that KrimsonKatt's art is really cute and I'd really like to see her refine it, and this just sounds like she's never going to!
Strak
1560
I will only post one comment on this thread, because I do not want to be dragged into this rabbit hole.
All I want to say is that, first of all, your own art style is actually not bad at all, Kat. I am not much of an artist, and it would take me quite a while to get to where you're at, skill wise. But tracing isn't learning, it's just copying. Ever copied on a test? How much of the material did you learn?
If you want to improve at literally any skill, it's a simple process. Start small. Practice. REFLECT. Scale up by 1%. Repeat.
Learning basics, such as how to draw eyes on a face, then repeating those basics until you've mastered them and developed your own style, THEN moving on to the next step is how you learn. And reflecting on what you did wrong and could have done better. But the key in that is repetition.
I talked about this in a video series about parallax mapping and how I developed my own style. I started with basics, then literally did hundreds of maps until I'd perfected my own style of mapping. I'll link you to the videos if you want.
And here's the great part: you can be lazy. You just have to be consistent. If you do 15 minutes a day to start and work your way up from there, it's not extraordinary hard work. But if you're consistent with that work habit, you'll eventually master whatever skill you put your mind to - granted that you are also reflecting on what you learn.
That's all I really have to say. As far as the AI thing goes, I'm on board with this decision. Let's keep the value of hard work and effort at the forefront of the games hosted on this site.
All I want to say is that, first of all, your own art style is actually not bad at all, Kat. I am not much of an artist, and it would take me quite a while to get to where you're at, skill wise. But tracing isn't learning, it's just copying. Ever copied on a test? How much of the material did you learn?
If you want to improve at literally any skill, it's a simple process. Start small. Practice. REFLECT. Scale up by 1%. Repeat.
Learning basics, such as how to draw eyes on a face, then repeating those basics until you've mastered them and developed your own style, THEN moving on to the next step is how you learn. And reflecting on what you did wrong and could have done better. But the key in that is repetition.
I talked about this in a video series about parallax mapping and how I developed my own style. I started with basics, then literally did hundreds of maps until I'd perfected my own style of mapping. I'll link you to the videos if you want.
And here's the great part: you can be lazy. You just have to be consistent. If you do 15 minutes a day to start and work your way up from there, it's not extraordinary hard work. But if you're consistent with that work habit, you'll eventually master whatever skill you put your mind to - granted that you are also reflecting on what you learn.
That's all I really have to say. As far as the AI thing goes, I'm on board with this decision. Let's keep the value of hard work and effort at the forefront of the games hosted on this site.
KumoriCloudGames
322
I was hesitant to post my thoughts on this topic because my views on AI would probably be disliked, but this has to be said.
This is a pretty awful move in my opinion from this site that restricts a lot of upcoming talent. I don't understand why it's cool and quirky to steal assets from other games, but then not use AI for a simple grass texture or reference; in that case, is tracing something from Google also comparable? That's all the algorithm did, was trace out a new grass texture.
You can train AI with data sets that are in the public domain. There are ethical and unethical ways to handle AI, but using this "We don't accept AI-generated content" and thinking it's a magic bullet, then trying to convince some person that his MS Paint art is amazing because AI is bad, is stupid; that's not the point.
Perhaps it just isn't the polish level the developer is looking for; game development takes years to master, and sometimes people lack in certain areas. Really, it's just like using free asset packs.
It's up to the developer, not a bunch of moderators, I don't know it personally seems oddly disingenuous.
Second off, how will you find out about every game that uses AI? You just can't purge random games because you assume they have AI-generated content; it's just going to be a mess and waste a lot of time. I don't even like or use AI, but as a tool, I really don't mind others using it, I don't understand this Twitter mindset of AI art being bad. You can't replace the passion that humans can put into art pieces; even if they use AI to help them, as long as they aren't selling it, there shouldn't be a problem.
The point is that this is a hobbyist website; really, this shouldn't be up to a site's admins; this is up to the developer, as I will be truthful this site has a problem with the admins enforcing there beliefs on any given topic, and creating a chamber of only people who agree with said given belief.
This is a pretty awful move in my opinion from this site that restricts a lot of upcoming talent. I don't understand why it's cool and quirky to steal assets from other games, but then not use AI for a simple grass texture or reference; in that case, is tracing something from Google also comparable? That's all the algorithm did, was trace out a new grass texture.
You can train AI with data sets that are in the public domain. There are ethical and unethical ways to handle AI, but using this "We don't accept AI-generated content" and thinking it's a magic bullet, then trying to convince some person that his MS Paint art is amazing because AI is bad, is stupid; that's not the point.
Perhaps it just isn't the polish level the developer is looking for; game development takes years to master, and sometimes people lack in certain areas. Really, it's just like using free asset packs.
It's up to the developer, not a bunch of moderators, I don't know it personally seems oddly disingenuous.
Second off, how will you find out about every game that uses AI? You just can't purge random games because you assume they have AI-generated content; it's just going to be a mess and waste a lot of time. I don't even like or use AI, but as a tool, I really don't mind others using it, I don't understand this Twitter mindset of AI art being bad. You can't replace the passion that humans can put into art pieces; even if they use AI to help them, as long as they aren't selling it, there shouldn't be a problem.
The point is that this is a hobbyist website; really, this shouldn't be up to a site's admins; this is up to the developer, as I will be truthful this site has a problem with the admins enforcing there beliefs on any given topic, and creating a chamber of only people who agree with said given belief.
