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HOW ABOUT THIS; ARE THERE ANY CLICHES THAT YOU LIKE?
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kentona
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MayorAnime
282
Why? It is the same as reloading your game after dying but takes less time. It is just as anticlimactic knowing that you are immortal and get infinite retries.
I am sorry, but I have strongly disagree with you here. From a storytelling, and writing perspective, the ability to run away from a climatic final boss, or some other less-final, but equally climactic boss battle, destroys the climatic nature of the battle.
When a hero (or group of heroes) traverse incredible dangers, face unspeakable horrors, and suffer countless set backs to stop the <insert ultimate evil's name here> from <insert nefarious plan here>, only to be able to say...
"Oh wait, Mister Final Boss, we are not quite ready, LOL :D...we be right back to try again when our level is higher, m'kay?"
Um, yeah, if you don't find that anti-climatic from a story stand point, I don't know what to tell you.
However, it does make sense from a game standpoint. So really, it all depends on what is more important to you, the gameplay or the story. If the gameplay is more important than the story, however, you shouldn't be playing an RPG. RPGs are supposed to be, by their nature, more game than story.
AeroGP
64
author=MayorAnime link=topic=2906.msg58486#msg58486 date=1233000553
... So really, it all depends on what is more important to you, the gameplay or the story. If the gameplay is more important than the story, however, you shouldn't be playing an RPG. RPGs are supposed to be, by their nature, more story than game.
That's what you meant, right?
I would have to disagree with that. RPGs are equally role-playing and number crunching. Some games have gotten away with doing lots of one and barely the other (Disgaea, for instance), but its only when they're finely blended together that you get really great RPGs. Fallout 3 comes to mind, I believe, as does a game like Elder Scrolls IV, and maybe even Mother 3.
S. F. LaValle
1069
I like the rival friendship where one character tries desperately to be more powerful than the other, leading to some explosive showdown of ultimate power. I also like stories that incorporate their own explanation of how a people or a planet were created.
Shadowtext
120
author=MayorAnime link=topic=2906.msg58486#msg58486 date=1233000553Which is why if you want to focus on storytelling and writing, you need to be working in another medium. Storytelling and writing must ALWAYS take a backseat to gameplay necessities in a video game.
I am sorry, but I have strongly disagree with you here. From a storytelling, and writing perspective, the ability to run away from a climatic final boss, or some other less-final, but equally climactic boss battle, destroys the climatic nature of the battle.
As I've said in the past, I don't really have a problem with pretty much any clichés. They're there for a reason and a decent storyteller is going to make them fun to experience because of the way the characters react to the situation. If you can't write a good story using a clichéd plot, you're probably not that good a writer anyway.
My favorites though are probably either the Magnificent Bastard villain or the Affably Evil villain. Which are tropes, rather than clichés, but it's not like the gaming community differentiates anyway.
D-Bones
227
author=S. F. LaValle link=topic=2906.msg58563#msg58563 date=1233019675
I like the rival friendship where one character tries desperately to be more powerful than the other, leading to some explosive showdown of ultimate power. I also like stories that incorporate their own explanation of how a people or a planet were created.
Pokemon.8)
Which is why if you want to focus on storytelling and writing, you need to be working in another medium. Storytelling and writing must ALWAYS take a backseat to gameplay necessities in a video game.
Being able to run away from a boss isn't a gameplay necessity. Not sucking, however, is.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59063#msg59063 date=1233209015No, maybe it's not a gameplay necessity if you don't mind your game being a chore to play. It's one of those things like skippable cutscenes and ubiquitous saving that are only in games where the developers cared about the player's experience and knew how to make a challenge that didn't rely on annoying the player until he either stops playing or checks a FAQ.Which is why if you want to focus on storytelling and writing, you need to be working in another medium. Storytelling and writing must ALWAYS take a backseat to gameplay necessities in a video game.
Being able to run away from a boss isn't a gameplay necessity. Not sucking, however, is.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59067#msg59067 date=1233209298author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59063#msg59063 date=1233209015No, maybe it's not a gameplay necessity if you don't mind your game being a chore to play. It's one of those things like skippable cutscenes and ubiquitous saving that are only in games where the developers cared about the player's experience and knew how to make a challenge that didn't rely on annoying the player until he either stops playing or checks a FAQ.Which is why if you want to focus on storytelling and writing, you need to be working in another medium. Storytelling and writing must ALWAYS take a backseat to gameplay necessities in a video game.
Being able to run away from a boss isn't a gameplay necessity. Not sucking, however, is.
I've absolutely never, ever minded getting a game over on a boss because I couldn't run away and I've never considered any game that didn't let you run away a chore, hell, so I guess anyone else who feels differently can just suck a dong.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59072#msg59072 date=1233209561
I've absolutely never, ever minded getting a game over on a boss because I couldn't run away and I've never considered any game that didn't let you run away a chore, hell, so I guess anyone else who feels differently can just suck a dong.
Getting a game over on a boss fight means that the game's creators were giving you a challenge and there's nothing wrong with at all.
haha...you said dong.
Shadowtext
120
author=Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant link=topic=2906.msg59082#msg59082 date=1233210247There's plenty wrong with it. But people who take pride in being good at playing badly designed games take it as a mark of honor that they can, so it's hard to convince them that they may as well take pride in being able to drive a car that doesn't have any wheels.author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59072#msg59072 date=1233209561
I've absolutely never, ever minded getting a game over on a boss because I couldn't run away and I've never considered any game that didn't let you run away a chore, hell, so I guess anyone else who feels differently can just suck a dong.
Getting a game over on a boss fight means that the game's creators were giving you a challenge and there's nothing wrong with at all.
I don't think not being able to run away from a boss fight (or whatever) is a badly designed game, so I guess that's a difference of opinion!
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59084#msg59084 date=1233210419And it's not if you don't have game overs. On the other hand, if a player gets into a fight that he wasn't as prepared for as he thought he was and loses five hours of play time because he forgot to save, there's a good chance he's going to stop playing your game, and that will be entirely your fault for feeling that challenge was more important than thinking of the player's experience.
I don't think not being able to run away from a boss fight (or whatever) is a badly designed game, so I guess that's a difference of opinion!
On the other hand, if a player gets into a fight that he wasn't as prepared for as he thought he was and loses five hours of play time because he forgot to save, there's a good chance he's going to stop playing your game, and that will be entirely your fault for feeling that challenge was more important than thinking of the player's experience.
Solution: Skippable cutscenes and offer save points (both regular save points and a prompt asking you "DO YOU WANT TO SAVE!? NO, SERIOUSLY, YOU HAD BETTER SAVE") and equipment management before boss battles. There's nothing you're going to tell me to convince me that game overs are bad game design, save your energy!
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59083#msg59083 date=1233210347
There's plenty wrong with it. But people who take pride in being good at playing badly designed games take it as a mark of honor that they can, so it's hard to convince them that they may as well take pride in being able to drive a car that doesn't have any wheels.
Shadowtext...what the hell..
I am completely agreeing with Feld here.
Just because you were to lose in a game DOESN'T MEAN IT'S A BADLY DESIGNED GAME! If you think that you should be able to play through a game without having ANY trouble at all, and I don't mean a lot of trouble (it could be something small like beating a boss), then you would have a faltering emotional attachment to the game. Having difficulty on certain parts means your learning, and THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Shadowtext
120
If you put a save point right before every challenging battle, a game over is pointless in the first place. In theory, the player is just going to load the game again from that Save Point and be in exactly the situation he was before the battle started. That being the case, the game over serves no purpose, at least for a player who makes use of the save point. Simply taking the player back to the last place he could've saved REGARDLESS of whether he saved or not after he has died does not in any way reduce the challenge--the only difference it makes is that people who didn't save aren't screwed if they lose. Since you've already provided the option to save, clearly the challenge isn't supposed to be "always remember to save!" (And if the "challenge" of your game is based on remembering to save, it's probably not a very good game in the first place).
Like I said, Shadowtext, save your energy! You aren't going to convince me, so I'm bowing out until the conversation shifts direction.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59095#msg59095 date=1233211644I was talking to the other guy. You've made it quite clear that you're not interested in thinking about your position on the matter.
Like I said, Shadowtext, save your energy! You aren't going to convince me, so I'm bowing out until the conversation shifts direction.
You've made it quite clear that you're not interested in thinking about your position on the matter.
Oh, of course I am interesting in thinking about my position on the matter, and I have actually been in a conversation like this before. I am just firm on my convictions and I'm not changing what I strongly believe in until I have sufficient reason to do so, and the arguments that you bring to the table aren't it, so I see no reason to debate it!
Don't get me wrong, you're a smart guy, but this is just a fundamental difference in what we believe. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but hey, I have fun my way.
