Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
HOW ABOUT THIS; ARE THERE ANY CLICHES THAT YOU LIKE?
Posts
Shadowtext
120
Shadowtext
View playlists
Closeauthor=Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant link=topic=2906.msg59097#msg59097 date=1233211766I'm insinuating that using tedium as a punishment for players who DO lose is bad game design.
Are you insinuating that good players don't lose, Shadowtext?
I'm insinuating that using tedium as a punishment for players who DO lose is bad game design.
I will say this; there will be tedium if a player loses no matter what.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59099#msg59099 date=1233211851
I'm insinuating that using tedium as a punishment for players who DO lose is bad game design.
Fuck it. i'm not arguing about this anymore. It's just hard to not get involved about something I disagree with; plus, this stupid argument is starting to piss me off.
I disagree with you greatly, Shadowtext. End of story.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59101#msg59101 date=1233212003
I will say this; there will be tedium if a player loses no matter what.
This is pretty much the truth for every game, Feld. I'm actually glad you pointed that out.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2906.msg59117#msg59117 date=1233216984
No, I'm pretty sure this is what he actually believes!
I am sure that what he believes, granted I fucking hate it, but what are you gonna do.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59099#msg59099 date=1233211851author=Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant link=topic=2906.msg59097#msg59097 date=1233211766I'm insinuating that using tedium as a punishment for players who DO lose is bad game design.
Are you insinuating that good players don't lose, Shadowtext?
And yet you say giving them the chance to save before bosses to mostly nullify that punishment is pointless.
You don't make sense. You haven't given a solution, either.
Save points midway through the dungeon?
Myself, I don't mind save points right before boss battles. It doesn't make the game a chore if the boss is challenging enough, and it keeps people from getting annoyed.
maladroithim
1495
I think you guys need to stop using words like "boss" and "dungeon" and "save point" all the time. You are thinking in terms of one very very specific game design, and not about the principles of game design in general.
Also, you have to consider what type of difficulty it is. Sometimes you really get no margin for error, or no alternative way to do something, or that the difficulty is because of something stupid like controls, not because it's genuinely difficult. This is especially true when a game of a certain genre tries to add elements of other genres then fails at it. Like Stealth minigames in non-stealth games (which have the added bonus of the player having to wait for just the right time to move on). If a task is difficult, being sent to the door right outside it rather than getting a game over would be my personal choice.
Ironically that was a quote in the game Braid.
... But if we've learned from a mistake and became better for it, shouldn't we be rewarded for the learning, rather than punished for the mistake?
Ironically that was a quote in the game Braid.
Shadowtext
120
author=Hesufo link=topic=2906.msg59177#msg59177 date=1233242084No, you misunderstood me. I said that game overs were pointless if you can save right before the difficult battles, not that the save points right before difficult battles were a problem. I'm not arguing against letting the player fight the boss again if he fails the first time, I'm against kicking him out of the game for his failure.author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59099#msg59099 date=1233211851author=Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant link=topic=2906.msg59097#msg59097 date=1233211766I'm insinuating that using tedium as a punishment for players who DO lose is bad game design.
Are you insinuating that good players don't lose, Shadowtext?
And yet you say giving them the chance to save before bosses to mostly nullify that punishment is pointless.
As for providing my own solution--the best solution to any situation where you would punish the player for a particular behavior is to instead reward them for the things you want them to do. I believe in positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement, especially in activities that are supposed to be entertaining. Apparently it is radically subversive to think this way. I'll start my own thread about it if people still really want to argue about it, but as has already been pointed out, it's distracting people from the topic at hand.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2906.msg59679#msg59679 date=1233381943
No, you misunderstood me. I said that game overs were pointless if you can save right before the difficult battles, not that the save points right before difficult battles were a problem. I'm not arguing against letting the player fight the boss again if he fails the first time, I'm against kicking him out of the game for his failure.
As for providing my own solution--the best solution to any situation where you would punish the player for a particular behavior is to instead reward them for the things you want them to do. I believe in positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement, especially in activities that are supposed to be entertaining. Apparently it is radically subversive to think this way. I'll start my own thread about it if people still really want to argue about it, but as has already been pointed out, it's distracting people from the topic at hand.
Um...how do you reward someone for losing? The reward should come after the hurdle that the player seems to have trouble jumping.
BentoBox
22
7 ft. big awesome swords sure get me. :(
and i like saving the world and i like having a last battle on an epic setting.
and i like saving the world and i like having a last battle on an epic setting.
Mr. Y
300
I just generally prefer RPGs where I do get to save the world. Big, epic 40-hour RPGs where I am ultimately responsible for the salvation of an entire planet or perhaps a solar system. I have problems enjoying RPGs where the point isn't saving the world.
author=Mr. Y link=topic=2906.msg66780#msg66780 date=1237181463
I just generally prefer RPGs where I do get to save the world. Big, epic 40-hour RPGs where I am ultimately responsible for the salvation of an entire planet or perhaps a solar system. I have problems enjoying RPGs where the point isn't saving the world.
MayorAnime
282
author=Mr. Y link=topic=2906.msg66780#msg66780 date=1237181463
I just generally prefer RPGs where I do get to save the world. Big, epic 40-hour RPGs where I am ultimately responsible for the salvation of an entire planet or perhaps a solar system. I have problems enjoying RPGs where the point isn't saving the world.
The Epic Hero's Quest, complete with world-saving journey.
The only way to fly...!
MayorAnime
282
author=brandonabley link=topic=2906.msg59190#msg59190 date=1233246038
I think you guys need to stop using words like "boss" and "dungeon" and "save point" all the time. You are thinking in terms of one very very specific game design, and not about the principles of game design in general.
That statement is one of the reasons I still believe in this community.
You're absolutely right. The terminology being used here is almost universally applied to RPGs and Adventure Games, although Action games are becoming increasingly similar.
But you can't use those words, easily, for Sports Games, Puzzle Games, Simulation Games, etc.
