Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
PROFESSIONALISM, NOW WITH LESS EXIT FATE
Posts
Craze
View playlists
CloseI think the general consensus is that not worrying about advertising until you finish, and then simply releasing the game at non-RM* community sites, will lead you to success.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=3159.msg62094#msg62094 date=1234803508Yes, time for an investigation! ITS A MYSTERY
So you don't want to investigate how to effectively advertise for our games and get them done in good time? Okay...
(I wasn't talking about a Wikipedia page by the way)
Okay, you start. What are the best ideas you can think of for this, Mog?
Isn't it everyone's dream to be sooooo good at game making that people will just flock to you to bask in your overwhelming awesomeness? Good luck with that.
Getting that word out, generating some hype, and feeding ourselves some feedback, critisms and praise is just a fact of work, let alone RPG making. All this idealism about "pure" game making is bullshit, at least from anyone here. Christ, if you were so intent on this game making purity, you wouldn't even have an account! Or if you do, you'd have exactly 1 post count for each full game you release and that's it.
And another thing - of course this RM community is insular! Like Blitzen said, if anyone is truly serious about game making, they'd choose a serious medium.
The brass here is starting to really get on my nerves, pretending that RPG making of the sort we practice is some grandiose endevour worthy of respect and reverence, but it's honestly not. 99.8% who do this do it because it's a fun hobby - even if they don't admit it to themselves. Repeat: RPG Making is a fun hobby.
So be more like Blitzen and accept this community for what it is.
Getting that word out, generating some hype, and feeding ourselves some feedback, critisms and praise is just a fact of work, let alone RPG making. All this idealism about "pure" game making is bullshit, at least from anyone here. Christ, if you were so intent on this game making purity, you wouldn't even have an account! Or if you do, you'd have exactly 1 post count for each full game you release and that's it.
And another thing - of course this RM community is insular! Like Blitzen said, if anyone is truly serious about game making, they'd choose a serious medium.
The brass here is starting to really get on my nerves, pretending that RPG making of the sort we practice is some grandiose endevour worthy of respect and reverence, but it's honestly not. 99.8% who do this do it because it's a fun hobby - even if they don't admit it to themselves. Repeat: RPG Making is a fun hobby.
So be more like Blitzen and accept this community for what it is.
Darken
3952
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=3159.msg62106#msg62106 date=1234809844
Because although gamemaking is fun there is no point in making a game for yourself. And anyone who says they would be fine with finishing a project for it to be totally ignored is lying...
I used to think like this but then I realized that perhaps finishing SOMETHING provides for self worth and an outlet of creative inspiration. WAIT FUCK THAT I WANT A MISAO.
Anaryu
8848
Are we still arguing in here?
It's like there are some of us who enjoy making games, and some who enjoy hyping their games for attention.
I've finished several games and I don't even WANT feedback on them because they're history, they're done, and I'm not going to change them anyway.
Feedback? More like loadofbulldodo-back. Too often it's varying opinions from a bunch of quarters who never have, never will, and never even intended to play your stuff. I trust in my close circle to give me spot-checks on ideas and implementations.
"I played 15 minutes, I'll go tell them what I hated now."
Perception is reality; if you go into that game thinking "I need to review this, ugh." or "If I play this they'll play mine." what do you think your perception already is?
Get some players to give you some feedback. I'm still of the opinion that showcasing RM games to other developers only purpose is so that the other developers can springboard off your ideas.
Blizten is on the right track, hands down.
It's like there are some of us who enjoy making games, and some who enjoy hyping their games for attention.
I've finished several games and I don't even WANT feedback on them because they're history, they're done, and I'm not going to change them anyway.
Feedback? More like loadofbulldodo-back. Too often it's varying opinions from a bunch of quarters who never have, never will, and never even intended to play your stuff. I trust in my close circle to give me spot-checks on ideas and implementations.
"I played 15 minutes, I'll go tell them what I hated now."
Perception is reality; if you go into that game thinking "I need to review this, ugh." or "If I play this they'll play mine." what do you think your perception already is?
Get some players to give you some feedback. I'm still of the opinion that showcasing RM games to other developers only purpose is so that the other developers can springboard off your ideas.
Blizten is on the right track, hands down.
author=kentona link=topic=3159.msg62103#msg62103 date=1234808346
Isn't it everyone's dream to be sooooo good at game making that people will just flock to you to bask in your overwhelming awesomeness? Good luck with that.
Getting that word out, generating some hype, and feeding ourselves some feedback, critisms and praise is just a fact of work, let alone RPG making. All this idealism about "pure" game making is bullshit, at least from anyone here. Christ, if you were so intent on this game making purity, you wouldn't even have an account! Or if you do, you'd have exactly 1 post count for each full game you release and that's it.
And another thing - of course this RM community is insular! Like Blitzen said, if anyone is truly serious about game making, they'd choose a serious medium.
The brass here is starting to really get on my nerves, pretending that RPG making of the sort we practice is some grandiose endevour worthy of respect and reverence, but it's honestly not. 99.8% who do this do it because it's a fun hobby - even if they don't admit it to themselves. Repeat: RPG Making is a fun hobby.
So be more like Blitzen and accept this community for what it is.
I agree wholeheartedly.
author=kentona link=topic=3159.msg62103#msg62103 date=1234808346The problem is that most of this is true and not enough people subscribe to it.
Isn't it everyone's dream to be sooooo good at game making that people will just flock to you to bask in your overwhelming awesomeness? Good luck with that.
Getting that word out, generating some hype, and feeding ourselves some feedback, critisms and praise is just a fact of work, let alone RPG making. All this idealism about "pure" game making is bullshit, at least from anyone here. Christ, if you were so intent on this game making purity, you wouldn't even have an account! Or if you do, you'd have exactly 1 post count for each full game you release and that's it.
And another thing - of course this RM community is insular! Like Blitzen said, if anyone is truly serious about game making, they'd choose a serious medium.
The brass here is starting to really get on my nerves, pretending that RPG making of the sort we practice is some grandiose endevour worthy of respect and reverence, but it's honestly not. 99.8% who do this do it because it's a fun hobby - even if they don't admit it to themselves. Repeat: RPG Making is a fun hobby.
So be more like Blitzen and accept this community for what it is.
Everyone likes to get recognized for their efforts here. A fun hobby. Sure, people can do some pretty cool things with the software. But that doesn't matter. I've thrown more time and effort into projects that never saw playability than probably most people around here. In that sense, I was a failure as a game maker but a success as a hobbyist having fun and learning.
The problem I see isn't so much "professionalism", which is hard to apply to the community anyways, but rather with design and attitude. As is a known truth, most in the community take as much as they can and end up giving very little back. How many people here use the absolutely free game hosting for their game, but don't download that many games at all? What makes you so good to ask/beg/plead for others to play your game, yet won't even give their game the time of day? I would say that is where we are lacking some damn professionalism.
Oh, and the majority of games made in the community are not good games by any measure. But do they really need to be in the end?
EDIT: Mog pull your nose out of the staff's ass for a minute and type up a real response.
Oh God so much to respond to I guess I should start from the beginning. I don't really have time to respond to all of this at once but this is a very fascinating topic and I hope it doesn't get locked. Oh and I went to the trouble of being annoying and bolding my opinions not because I think they're super important I just have a feeling that no one will notice/read them otherwise.
This is a complete and total crapshoot that is based just as much on random chance as it is merit or advertising. I'd list examples but do I really have to? Is anyone contesting this point?
These things are basically true, for most people. For people who already have made complete games and seen them be woefully underplayed (let's pretend that I am exempt from this, we could look at things like Pokemon Hunter or Dragon Kingdoms) the issue of advertising is obviously more important. These people HAVE gotten off their asses and made their games, and look how much good it did them.
STFU, don't be such a cunt. Also Barkley's success is some kind of a cosmic queef, not a textbook example of an indie game. I believe, hope, and pray that Barkley is the kind of thing that will never happen again.
There is a lot here to sink one's teeth into, but I don't have the time. Let me just say a few tings about "confidence"....
1. You are omitting any acknowledgment of the phenomenon whereby this community perceives any outward show of confidence as "arrogance" or "pretension" and immediately pounces on and lynches anyone who shows any signs of it.
2. Being a professional at something does not automatically grant confidence. I have been paid for my (fiction) writing in a pro market, but I am still tremendously insecure about my writing. But of course this may be a question of margin (although I have never heard of a writer who is not insecure).
I have always liked you a lot and you are one of my favorite people here but this is towing a dangerous line. I still dream of and aspire to a professional creative career so I do not view game making as just a hobby. (I do not see RMVX as INNATELY a less serious medium than say Gamemaker or C++ or whatever, but that is an argument for a whole other topic.) Anyway what I think is a dangerous attitude is requiring anyone think about what they do in any certain way.
If A. thinks of RPG Making as some kind of gateway to their dreams and B. thinks of it as a harmless and meaningless hobby that will never amount to anything for anyone, C. (C. being you in this case) should not have any problem with either of these opinions.
Think of it as a microcosmic version of freedom of religion.
It just became popular on its own merits.
This is a complete and total crapshoot that is based just as much on random chance as it is merit or advertising. I'd list examples but do I really have to? Is anyone contesting this point?
author=WIP link=topic=3159.msg61980#msg61980 date=1234747141
The issue is not about "advertising". The community is trying to mimic the absolute worst aspect of professional game development (marketing) while neglecting the reason they are professional games (making a good game).
It is amazing how the community hides behind the aspect of "feedback" and "advertising". Why not cut all of those things out and just focus on your game?
I will tell you what your response is. "Why, then nobody will play my game! What is the point of making games when nobody plays them? SADFACE SADFACE" And the answer is: look at Last Scenario and Cave Story. Both games made by a single person without any hype beforehand. And they are largely two of the most well-known indie games around. Not because they hyped or continually bumped their thread or other "advertising" tactics people around here use.
If you want your game to be successful, you should probably worry more about the big step: actually making the damn thing.
Even if one were to concede that advertising blitz is necessary to get people to play, there's a difference between advertising a finished product and interrupting your development cycle constantly to hype up the promise that one day your game might be completed.
These things are basically true, for most people. For people who already have made complete games and seen them be woefully underplayed (let's pretend that I am exempt from this, we could look at things like Pokemon Hunter or Dragon Kingdoms) the issue of advertising is obviously more important. These people HAVE gotten off their asses and made their games, and look how much good it did them.
How many games have you made?
STFU, don't be such a cunt. Also Barkley's success is some kind of a cosmic queef, not a textbook example of an indie game. I believe, hope, and pray that Barkley is the kind of thing that will never happen again.
WIP is right, FG, and I was close to making a topic about the whole thing.
The reason people make topics about their games and generate hype about them is not to advertise; it's to receive recognition and validation for the work you've done to a game thus far. Aside from that, it's also to determine if people like your ideas. It may seem harmless, but there's two inherent problems with it:
1) As WIP said, time spent organizing, releasing, and discussing a demo is spent not working on the game. It may seem negligible compared to how long it actually takes to develop a game, but when people set a goal to make enough to release a demo, they prepare themselves to release it to the world, have it discussed, request feedback, and suffer from an overall winding down of any work actually done to a game. People will take a break, and maybe they will, or won't, get back to work on it. Eventually. Secondly, and more importantly:
2) That which separates the amateurs from the pros: confidence. Sure, commercial game developers are confident in the sheer amount of resources they have to make a game, including a marketing department. Even if they didn't have a marketing department (like the makers of Last Fate and Cave Story), the need to get a game's name out there shouldn't matter until there's a game ready to go out there. The reason people make topics as soon as there's a playable chunk ready for people to check out is because people aren't confident in their own attempts at game making. It takes so long to make a game, why continue if people think it's going to suck? It's valid to want to know whether or not your time is going to be wasted. However, people's own insecurities about their projects is transmitted through the topic-bumping, advertising, and requests for feedback.
It's a game developer's responsibility to know what a player wants and how to get that in a playable product. Maybe being a good game developer isn't what's important to a lot of people. Such people may just want to make something for show and tell and have the collective community hang it on the proverbial refrigerator door. That's fine. But don't complain when an amateur game website and community want to put the spotlight on things that are pertinent to helping the collective grow as developers as opposed to feeding people's egos.
There is a lot here to sink one's teeth into, but I don't have the time. Let me just say a few tings about "confidence"....
1. You are omitting any acknowledgment of the phenomenon whereby this community perceives any outward show of confidence as "arrogance" or "pretension" and immediately pounces on and lynches anyone who shows any signs of it.
2. Being a professional at something does not automatically grant confidence. I have been paid for my (fiction) writing in a pro market, but I am still tremendously insecure about my writing. But of course this may be a question of margin (although I have never heard of a writer who is not insecure).
author=kentona link=topic=3159.msg62103#msg62103 date=1234808346
Isn't it everyone's dream to be sooooo good at game making that people will just flock to you to bask in your overwhelming awesomeness? Good luck with that.
Getting that word out, generating some hype, and feeding ourselves some feedback, critisms and praise is just a fact of work, let alone RPG making. All this idealism about "pure" game making is bullshit, at least from anyone here. Christ, if you were so intent on this game making purity, you wouldn't even have an account! Or if you do, you'd have exactly 1 post count for each full game you release and that's it.
And another thing - of course this RM community is insular! Like Blitzen said, if anyone is truly serious about game making, they'd choose a serious medium.
The brass here is starting to really get on my nerves, pretending that RPG making of the sort we practice is some grandiose endevour worthy of respect and reverence, but it's honestly not. 99.8% who do this do it because it's a fun hobby - even if they don't admit it to themselves. Repeat: RPG Making is a fun hobby.
So be more like Blitzen and accept this community for what it is.
I have always liked you a lot and you are one of my favorite people here but this is towing a dangerous line. I still dream of and aspire to a professional creative career so I do not view game making as just a hobby. (I do not see RMVX as INNATELY a less serious medium than say Gamemaker or C++ or whatever, but that is an argument for a whole other topic.) Anyway what I think is a dangerous attitude is requiring anyone think about what they do in any certain way.
If A. thinks of RPG Making as some kind of gateway to their dreams and B. thinks of it as a harmless and meaningless hobby that will never amount to anything for anyone, C. (C. being you in this case) should not have any problem with either of these opinions.
Think of it as a microcosmic version of freedom of religion.
I view Rpg making as a meaningful hobby, because like Darken says, it provides for self worth and an outlet of creative inspiration. Personally, though, I understand that it will never amount to anything for me. I hope, however, that it will act as a gateway for those of us aspiring to be game makers.
Aveyond is fucking awesome, not because of the game (which I haven't even played) but because they made something of our little hobby. I have tremendous respect for that.
And about the whole maker thing, you have to remember I've used (almost exclusively) RM2k3 and C++. So I have no real basis of comparison between, say, VX and Gamemaker and Java.
Aveyond is fucking awesome, not because of the game (which I haven't even played) but because they made something of our little hobby. I have tremendous respect for that.
And about the whole maker thing, you have to remember I've used (almost exclusively) RM2k3 and C++. So I have no real basis of comparison between, say, VX and Gamemaker and Java.
McDohl
120
author=Anaryu link=topic=3159.msg62114#msg62114 date=1234811296
Feedback? More like loadofbulldodo-back. Too often it's varying opinions from a bunch of quarters who never have, never will, and never even intended to play your stuff. I trust in my close circle to give me spot-checks on ideas and implementations.
"I played 15 minutes, I'll go tell them what I hated now."
I just want to address this point here.
In 15 minutes, if I'm interested in playing your game, then I'm playing your game. If you haven't grabbed my attention in 15 minutes, then you haven't made your case and I don't see why I should keep on going. This goes for any game, amateur or professional.
I play a lot of games now-a-days. I think it's only fair, since I want feedback on my game (and I mean real feedback, not thinly veiled resentment in the form of criticism), so I should play others and tell them what I think of it. That's how it's supposed to work.
Moreover, people look for any reason to not like a game. And if they find reasons not to like it, then they'll look for reasons to hate it. There's a lot of ridiculously stupid, alpha male, nerd rage bullshit that goes on; as if saying, "Wow, I really liked your game.", somehow makes your own game inferior.
author=Max McGee link=topic=3159.msg62121#msg62121 date=1234814131It just became popular on its own merits.
This is a complete and total crapshoot that is based just as much on random chance as it is merit or advertising. I'd list examples but do I really have to? Is anyone contesting this point?
If you think a game's popularity is entirely a crapshoot than you really haven't been paying attention to this community.
Hell, RM* game popularity is starting to get predictable at this point.
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=3159.msg62129#msg62129 date=1234817591
Yeah, I think the formula is something like;popularity = (no. copied RGSS scripts * spikey-haired characters2) / original storyline ideas
I'm still working on the proof.
You're not cute.
You forgot to subtract the music variable.
Also you can entertain yourself with games you made, for example we created a sort ofmmorpg a while back, we played around in it with each other, kind of developing it as we played, and we never actually put it on a server and released it publicly or anything. It was worthwhile though, because we entertained ourselves with it (and created ridiculously powerful weapons and npc armies to fight each other with).
Also you can entertain yourself with games you made, for example we created a sort of
Neophyte
155
author=Anaryu link=topic=3159.msg62114#msg62114 date=1234811296:)
Feedback? More like loadofbulldodo-back. Too often it's varying opinions from a bunch of quarters who never have, never will, and never even intended to play your stuff. I trust in my close circle to give me spot-checks on ideas and implementations.
"I played 15 minutes, I'll go tell them what I hated now."
Perception is reality; if you go into that game thinking "I need to review this, ugh." or "If I play this they'll play mine." what do you think your perception already is?
Get some players to give you some feedback. I'm still of the opinion that showcasing RM games to other developers only purpose is so that the other developers can springboard off your ideas.
Blizten is on the right track, hands down.
I think most of the disagreements here are actually very minor. Secretly, we are all very alike and simply have to find ways to separate ourselves from the rest of the crowd by...name calling. :-X
But looking at what you said, I think I used to be like this somewhat. Maybe I still am, I'm not sure. But I think that most of the people here and in other communities have become this way. They play other games just to see HOW they did things, that's all. Everything else just turns into a pile of what they didn't like. They'll even do this to professional games, analyzing it down to the smallest details. I'm not saying praise a game or anything, but there is something wrong when there are threads about "play my game, I'll play yours", and typing up reviews about just the negative aspects of a game. You may have a sentence or two about the good aspects, but then a 2 page essay about the negative parts come right after.
This also applies to ones own project. Either they won't review their own game (they made it themselves so it must be perfect!), or they will do the same thing they do with every other game they play (review it) and constantly go through the improvement cycle. Unfortunately this cycle never ends, partly because they're such a harsh reviewer that they will never be satisfied and also because anything can be improved upon. In the end you're progressing as a developer, but you also aren't at the same time (hopefully this makes sense).
But I guess this is what happens when you become a developer. You'll compare everything to your own work, especially if it's made in the exact same engine (and genre) you're making it in. Some people won't even play a fantastic game because it will make them somehow feel bad about their own project, so they just ignore it. I don't even know how this is possible?
But I don't know, I have never released anything except to close friends so I guess I can't relate to most here. Like Blitzen said, I do it mainly for fun and as a good way to waste some time. If something more comes out of it though, that is fine too.
ZPE
1562
Feedback: Like it or not, you need it. If you don't care about what people think of your game don't bother setting up a games page for it. If you care only for your best friends' opinions then go ahead and show to them and them only.
I want to give feedback not for myself but for the game makers to see where they can improve, they can take them on board or dismiss it entirely but as long as I've told them what I think of their game, job's done as far as I'm concerned.
Take for example, playing a fighting game. You'll never improve or see your weaknesses until you get beaten. Likewise in developing games, you need others to show parts of your game which can be changed or improved for the better. If you can't see the benefits of this then I don't what else to say. Neophyte has already said this as my typing's too slow. :(
Anyhow, I never imagined myself to become a pro game developer. RPG Maker started as a past-time like playing video games (or as Ken put it - hobby) but I guess it's more than that to some people.
I want to give feedback not for myself but for the game makers to see where they can improve, they can take them on board or dismiss it entirely but as long as I've told them what I think of their game, job's done as far as I'm concerned.
Take for example, playing a fighting game. You'll never improve or see your weaknesses until you get beaten. Likewise in developing games, you need others to show parts of your game which can be changed or improved for the better. If you can't see the benefits of this then I don't what else to say. Neophyte has already said this as my typing's too slow. :(
Anyhow, I never imagined myself to become a pro game developer. RPG Maker started as a past-time like playing video games (or as Ken put it - hobby) but I guess it's more than that to some people.
You guys could continue arguing and cat-fighting, or you could play the featured game (Wilfred, the Hero) and/or Exit Fate.
You can steal ideas from both!
You can steal ideas from both!
author=Blitzen link=topic=3159.msg62044#msg62044 date=1234766672
The only reason people do advert topics is because they want attention. Or they are searching for positive reinforcement for a hobby that is so incredibly frivolous to make them feel better about wasting their time on something so fruitless.
I have no delusions about what I do. Its silly, its pointless, and its an entertaining waste of time. I'm long past the point where I might regard it as any kind of personal pursuit or investment, or that the fruits of my labour have any true objective worth.
The "RM Industry" is such a joke. If anyone here really cared about "professionalism" they would probably be using a different medium to begin with.
god, why are you even here? I, personally, greatly enjoy the hobby of using Rpgmaker. I enjoy creating a new world, and playing the finished product. You don't have to be "cool guy" by trashing this hobby as some pitiful little worthless thing. How's that going to help anything or anyone?
"Look i'm so cool because I hate everything, including my own hobbies, bask in my coolness"
