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NEW GAME IN THE WORKS, NEED SOME ADVICE ABOUT THE SOFTWARE.
Posts
S. F. LaValle
1069
S. F. LaValle
View playlists
Closepost=114051
This is a stupid comparison since he pretty much says "YOU CAN DO WHATEVER IT DOESN'T MATTER ALL THAT MATTERS IS GAMEPLAY I USE A SHOE TO MAKE MY GAMES"
You're welcome to your opinion, despite the fact that his article is insanely thorough, unbiased, and provides a complete solution to Cray's original inquiry. In fact I'd say it's the only answer necessary to the XP vs VX question ever again. Ok, now I'm a little confused, did you read the article at all?
Kaempfer
1932
post=114063
Are you saying you don't agree with his last paragraph on Mapping.
No, not at all, except:
"But despite all of that, a pretty looking map means very little to the average RPG."
While I agree design should take clear precedence over aesthetics, the argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous. While I agree that gameplay should be the leading concern in any endeavour, you can't write off audio/visual (ESPECIALLY audio), as audio has made some games the games they are today. Cave Story was an incredibly well designed game, but if I had played it on mute I would never have loved it as much as I did. You can't end every paragraph with "despite that it doesn't really matter because it's all about fun anyways".
And yes, SFV, I did read it despite it being extremely lengthy for the sake of being lengthy. While I applaud it for not having any bias, he doesn't take a stance one way or the other. Just because you are unbiased about something doesn't mean you can't like something more than the other thing. The first, what, eight points were "Tie". His logic? You are a nitpicker if you like one more than the other. He uses the word "nitpick" about a thousand times, which is ridiculous. Those are called "preferences". Some people prefer XP's mapping, some people prefer VX's mapping. That isn't a nitpick!
Thorough or no, his conclusion is that they are both good because they are both good. Uh... thanks, that's great. So it doesn't matter what I do so long as I do it well? That is the most pointless conclusion I have ever heard.
Did you read the article? Because it really seems like you read some sort of codex on wonderment filled with revelations on RPGMaking, but I am pretty sure I read something that was fairly boring at best.
I admit that the sections he actually bothered to take a stance on are better reads (the end of databasing is very helpful and eventing points out some important differences) but mostly it is, to sum up "they are pretty much the same".
The entire thing can be summed up by his final sentences, "The quality of your RPG Maker games won't significantly go up if you're using XP or VX. The quality of your games will only be determined by the amount of understanding and hard work you wish to put into your own game." So what is the point of going through all those words if you can effectively say the same thing with two sentences?
I guess it shares the same point as me explaining why I didn't like it, in the end.
edit: As an aside, SFV, saying that I am entitled to my opinion and then immediately and obviously attempting to point out why my opinion is stupid is not really entitling me to my opinion, is it? That wasn't really a rhetoric question; the answer is no. It's just a poor attempt to mask an insult.
Finally, Cray's question wasn't "Which is better," it was "Which should I use?". Now, let's ignore the fact that everything is a nitpick for a second and actually address that question. He was wondering which is built more suitably for a very specific type of game. He wasn't wondering which was better in general, not by a long shot. They are built differently and have the emphasis of ease on different things, and the conclusion "they are the same if you work hard and believe in your dreams" doesn't answer that in any way, does it?
Kaempfer
1932
Sorry, double post (I swear I hit edit...).
edit again: I'll use this post for something useful:
Yeah, obviously he doesn't CODE A GAME WITH A SHOE CRAZE I was only "kidding" about that part. Tee hee!
edit again: I'll use this post for something useful:
post=114053
Kaempfer, actually he makes some of the most high-quality and malleable gameplay-oriented RGSS2 scripts in the community
but okay
Yeah, obviously he doesn't CODE A GAME WITH A SHOE CRAZE I was only "kidding" about that part. Tee hee!
Neophyte
155
Kaempfer, you are such a nitpicker. =D
I'm serious though, I think that needs to be addressed. Not only to you, but to a lot of people in these communities. I don't think he was writing anything off. Sure he has a preference to gameplay, but it's just like you and your preference (or rather your focus?) towards graphics. *shrug*
Most of his points weren't needed, though. The first three are totally dependent on the organization and dedication of the developer. V&A and scripting also weren't needed because (surprise) they really are the same.
Anyway, stop nitpicking this article. Stop nitpicking games so much. I understand as developers we tend to do this a lot, but it's become a curse, and it doesn't help you as much as you think it does. His last two paragraphs were great.
I'm serious though, I think that needs to be addressed. Not only to you, but to a lot of people in these communities. I don't think he was writing anything off. Sure he has a preference to gameplay, but it's just like you and your preference (or rather your focus?) towards graphics. *shrug*
Most of his points weren't needed, though. The first three are totally dependent on the organization and dedication of the developer. V&A and scripting also weren't needed because (surprise) they really are the same.
Anyway, stop nitpicking this article. Stop nitpicking games so much. I understand as developers we tend to do this a lot, but it's become a curse, and it doesn't help you as much as you think it does. His last two paragraphs were great.
WolfCoder
3554
I actually welcome nitpicking...
That is, if it's actually of any use to me. There's a difference between "ZOMG DID YOU USE A LOAFER TO CODE THE COLLISION ENGINE" and "Try reducing the bullet's hit radius or something, I get hit even when I'm 4 pixels away from it's edge". One of them gives me an annoyed laugh and gets an equally empty reply and the other lets me fix tiny problems to make something airtight. And gives me a laugh too if it's something I did that was really stupid.
That is, if it's actually of any use to me. There's a difference between "ZOMG DID YOU USE A LOAFER TO CODE THE COLLISION ENGINE" and "Try reducing the bullet's hit radius or something, I get hit even when I'm 4 pixels away from it's edge". One of them gives me an annoyed laugh and gets an equally empty reply and the other lets me fix tiny problems to make something airtight. And gives me a laugh too if it's something I did that was really stupid.
post=113980
man, if only this was about 2k3 and vx and I could post my thread-ending video.
sequel please
Cray
0
AHm ok guys I already decided which one to use so you can stop arguing about the article now... ^^u
Kaempfer
1932
post=114140
Sure he has a preference to gameplay, but it's just like you and your preference (or rather your focus?) towards graphics. *shrug*
Uh, what? What focus towards graphics? I prefer a game that plays well to a game that looks good, but I prefer a game that looks good and plays well to either one. Don't you?
Most people would, despite their arguments to the contrary, agree with me. Kinetic Cipher is a pretty prime example of this. If it hadn't looked so... generic, it would have been much more popular. It was a great game in a lot of ways. The design aspects were rock solid. But the graphical aspects were lacking, and so it was overlooked by a lot of people. If Chrono Trigger had looked like a bag of horse assholes, do you think people would still love it? Probably, but not as much! There are about a billion examples of style over substance (every game ever designed by EA, for instance) so I won't go into them, but they're just as bad.
You can't overlook anything when making a good game. If your gameplay sucks, no one will enjoy your game. If your graphics suck, no one will show any interest in your game. If your audio sucks, no one will be able to play your game for any length of time. There is no room for statements that support ignoring any aspect, because they are all necessary. If you are making a mediocre game where you can't be bothered to do everything well, then focus on gameplay. At least then you won't be ridiculed by your peers too much.
I don't understand why so many people cling to the mantra of "graphics don't matter there is only the fun factor" like it is some deep philosophical insight. It strikes me as the game design equivalent of wearing chains and a lot of black; "who cares what MAINSTREAM CULTURE thinks of my fashion, I'm so much better than those proles!"
GUESS WHAT people care what games look and sound like just as much as how they play whether they admit it or not. People will tolerate a bad looking game longer than they'll tolerate a bad playing game, but the end result is usually the same, and it's not positive.
Also:
Most of his points weren't needed, though. The first three are totally dependent on the organization and dedication of the developer.
The same can be said for literally ANYTHING. Oh well I like GM because of this and I like ika because of that; this was a direct comparison between two things, and there should have been some sort of answer at the end of it.
Also, I wasn't NITPICKING THE FUCKING ARTICLE. I said I didn't like it and SFV pretty much said I was wrong and/or a stupid idiot for not liking it, so I explained my reasons.
"I don't like this pizza because it has achovies and pineapples and rocks and clumps of hair in it, and those are ingredients I don't like."
"OH JUST EAT IT YOU NITPICKER JESUS"
edit: Nightblade, seriously, how could you have assumed I preferred graphics over gameplay when the first line of my post was:
"While I agree design should take clear precedence over aesthetics, the argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous"
Darken
3952
The argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous.
This, this is correct.
Neophyte
155
When I said preference, I meant that as somebody's strengths. My fault, I didn't mean that as only focusing on one thing, obviously. I haven't seen much else from you other then your pretty screenshots and discussions on graphics. OH AND HOW DARE YOU MISTAKE ME FOR NIGHTBLADE. I guess the avatars are too similar, I should fix that.
And I would hug Cray to apologize for this tangent. :(
And I would hug Cray to apologize for this tangent. :(
WolfCoder
3554
post=114272The argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous.This, this is correct.
This is, incorrect. Well, sort of anyway. You're not wrong.
Stuff has to barely represent what they are (Atari), but if you're a company releasing a game you would then put production value into it to hit a wider market. But, that's not exactly the problem here.
Now now, what I see lots of true gamers not realizing is that you can horribly detract from a game if the graphics/sounds are BAD. What sense of BAD? Well, if you can't tell where you are or what object you are, or it's painfully hard to see how much HP you have left, or some sounds are eighty times louder than anything while others are softer than a pillow, or you have no idea whether something is something you collect or something that hurts you, or you overlook something that you're supposed to have gotten, or that the screen has way too much information or way to little information, or there's way too much artwork everywhere, or the objects are disorientingly out of scale, and the list goes on.
When you work on the graphics and stuff, you need to think of how its related gameplay wise as opposed to just something that looks good. Being an amazing artist won't help you if you aren't thinking about the gameplay and make some mistakes that actually hurt your game. A good generalization of this is that lots of people I've seen try to make a game like they make movies, when they're two different mediums.
Cray
0
"I like my games like my movies, <insert wit> and >insert wit>"
I'll let you guys go on with this, while I'll go work on my game now... (with a shoe)
and don't worry Neo :)
I'll let you guys go on with this, while I'll go work on my game now... (with a shoe)
and don't worry Neo :)
post=114272The argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous.This, this is correct.
Hilariously incorrect.
Graphics, Gameplay, and Music are all equally important, one shouldn't carry more weight than the others on purpose. They each perform a specific role the other doesn't - if you neglect any of them it does hurt you based on the role that it fills. Graphics in the context of free indie games directly correlates to downloads. Attraction is based on appearance (graphics), not content (gameplay). Ask a girl about it sometime, they know. If a random person visits this site looking at games, Grave Spirit has a much higher chance of them downloading it than Kinetic Cipher does. The only reason is because Grave Spirit looks better than it actually is, while Kinetic Cipher looks worse than it actually is. Reviews can bypass that, but at the same time, if Kinetic Cipher is a 5 star game, it still looks worse than all the other 5 star games and again gets less downloads. You can pretend you're above this but if you actually sit and think about it at least 9 times out of 10 every single product you pick up is based on a single qualification - "it looked good." Now after getting it, the actual quality of the content (gameplay) plays its role, it's then that you determine if that shiny thing you picked up is actually golden, or a polished turd. The Music for the sake of completion controls mood. If you hear whatever the track is that plays when Aeris dies it'll make you repeat how you felt when you first saw that scene. If you hop over to YouTube and actually watch the clip without sound, you'll most likely just be amazed by how you remembered it looking better. I'm honestly surprised by how little the RM Community uses music to it's full potential.
The actual problem with that article is that it's biased from the author being a talented scripter and he allows it to skew what he's talking about. It's more an article about benchmarking where the limits of the two makers are than actually helping Little Timmy figure out which one is better suited for his RPG game. If you have to add a feature through scripting because it isn't there - you cannot count it as being equal to something that does include it. For example RMVX has dashing. RMXP does not. Can you add it with scripts? Yes. Can you add it with events? Yes. The fact that you have to add it means RMXP does not include the ability to dash. The article does not seem to grasp that. It even goes so far as to claim RMXP isn't sluggish because one time he took the scripts from RMVX in RMXP and it ran just as good. No! You have to do extra work in one in order to get it to do the same thing the other one does! That means they are not equal. To go the other way RMVX runs at a retarded resolution for really no good reason - it's something you need to take into account when deciding on using that engine that you do not when dealing with RMXP.
The actual problem with that article is that it's biased from the author being a talented scripter and he allows it to skew what he's talking about. It's more an article about benchmarking where the limits of the two makers are than actually helping Little Timmy figure out which one is better suited for his RPG game. If you have to add a feature through scripting because it isn't there - you cannot count it as being equal to something that does include it. For example RMVX has dashing. RMXP does not. Can you add it with scripts? Yes. Can you add it with events? Yes. The fact that you have to add it means RMXP does not include the ability to dash. The article does not seem to grasp that. It even goes so far as to claim RMXP isn't sluggish because one time he took the scripts from RMVX in RMXP and it ran just as good. No! You have to do extra work in one in order to get it to do the same thing the other one does! That means they are not equal. To go the other way RMVX runs at a retarded resolution for really no good reason - it's something you need to take into account when deciding on using that engine that you do not when dealing with RMXP.
Mr.Nemo
1295
work on lost king, mate ;D
no but in all seriousness, I have no advice on this topic as I'm not experienced with either program
but I would like to have that NES-palette of yours, if I may?
no but in all seriousness, I have no advice on this topic as I'm not experienced with either program
but I would like to have that NES-palette of yours, if I may?
Nightblade
2723
Hilariously incorrect.
post=114310post=114272Hilariously incorrect.The argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous.This, this is correct.
No u
(You're wrong by the way)
Bandito
801
post=114323
Hilariously incorrect.post=114310post=114272Hilariously incorrect.The argument that everything but gameplay is unimportant is ridiculous.This, this is correct.
No u
(You're wrong by the way)
I think he's correct.
