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CloseAlgorithms, to make up the AI to make who knows what. Random makes who knows what. AI makes what it is designed to.
Actually let's wait for humans to perfect RPG making before computers make them :-)
Making the core system play would probably be the toughest part. Everything else would be much easier.
Actually let's wait for humans to perfect RPG making before computers make them :-)
Making the core system play would probably be the toughest part. Everything else would be much easier.
WolfCoder
3554
Now I know you don't understand. Just as all the life you see on this planet could not have risen by mere chance, you can't just randomly scribble around and make an RPG and expect butterflies and flowers now would you? Part of making an alive system would be something capable of design on this magnitude. You have to realize that this would mean creating something that is "arguably alive". Rolling random games is not intelligent.
The quickest way to get results is to input data from existing RPGs. This is exactly why you study existing RPGs to help yourself come up with new ideas faster, it would be the same for a computer being. You're thinking in terms of static algorithms that never change. You must think in terms of a machine that designs new algorithms.
Making the core system is the easiest part. In fact you could have a GLaRCS output data in RPG Maker format and the core parts would then have already been made for you.
A GLaRCS replaces the human, but the tools would all be the same tools you use. For the sake of simplicity, you would likely write your own paints program designed to interface directly with another program rather than having an entire GUI and everything.
Perhaps we can use the digital rock band joke from earlier and combine several alive systems that work together to produce different parts on an RPG rather than just one unit- but a GLaRCS could also mean several alive systems combined to make up the GLaRCS.
The quickest way to get results is to input data from existing RPGs. This is exactly why you study existing RPGs to help yourself come up with new ideas faster, it would be the same for a computer being. You're thinking in terms of static algorithms that never change. You must think in terms of a machine that designs new algorithms.
Making the core system is the easiest part. In fact you could have a GLaRCS output data in RPG Maker format and the core parts would then have already been made for you.
A GLaRCS replaces the human, but the tools would all be the same tools you use. For the sake of simplicity, you would likely write your own paints program designed to interface directly with another program rather than having an entire GUI and everything.
Perhaps we can use the digital rock band joke from earlier and combine several alive systems that work together to produce different parts on an RPG rather than just one unit- but a GLaRCS could also mean several alive systems combined to make up the GLaRCS.
Oh I understand... you wanting a smart RPG maker to make the perfect RPG = you're too lazy to make an RPG. So you dream up ideas :-)
I'm not talking about random exactly. Maybe parameters. You the user of the program set parameters, thus making it not random. Nothing really would be random, it would have algorithms. Such as to make houses from prefabrications. Having quests, from quest types "rescue" "kill" "fetch" "escort."
If the core system were easy, we'd see 1,000s of RPG makers or indie RPGs without RPG maker. All the other stuff like making the enemies, making weapons, making equipment would be easy.
mineral + weapon type = weapon
material + equipment type = equipment
gender + level + class = actor
gender + level + monster class = enemy
Morrowind and Oblivion did this well. Morrowind was too detailed with it.
Then you do tiers... like 10 tiers per game.
Each tier would consist of
1 or 2 town (or specify in the parameters)
1 or 2 battle areas (or specify in parameters)
tier enemies
tier equipment
tier goals
Then you move on to the next tier
5 tiers = 1 castle (or specify in parameters)
4 tiers = 1 boat
Core system to PLAY the game = tough.
In fact, someone should make a generator so people can just copy and paste the stuff into RPG maker and avoid the whole making a game core. Just a thought :-)
I'm not talking about random exactly. Maybe parameters. You the user of the program set parameters, thus making it not random. Nothing really would be random, it would have algorithms. Such as to make houses from prefabrications. Having quests, from quest types "rescue" "kill" "fetch" "escort."
If the core system were easy, we'd see 1,000s of RPG makers or indie RPGs without RPG maker. All the other stuff like making the enemies, making weapons, making equipment would be easy.
mineral + weapon type = weapon
material + equipment type = equipment
gender + level + class = actor
gender + level + monster class = enemy
Morrowind and Oblivion did this well. Morrowind was too detailed with it.
Then you do tiers... like 10 tiers per game.
Each tier would consist of
1 or 2 town (or specify in the parameters)
1 or 2 battle areas (or specify in parameters)
tier enemies
tier equipment
tier goals
Then you move on to the next tier
5 tiers = 1 castle (or specify in parameters)
4 tiers = 1 boat
Core system to PLAY the game = tough.
In fact, someone should make a generator so people can just copy and paste the stuff into RPG maker and avoid the whole making a game core. Just a thought :-)
WolfCoder
3554
You still don't get it.
What you describe is using dice rolls to make decisions on what to put in a game. In such a system you have already written out a method of turning the results of the rolls into data that works. There's not even conventional intelligence in what you're talking about- you as a human being have already done the design even in a randomly generated system.
And by the way Oblivion doesn't randomly generate actors, it merely selects pre-made people from a pool. Every particular actor you see is actually a case made by a developer- I should know I made up my own enemy groups for Oblivion when I made my own dungeons. For example, I would make a couple of swordfighters, some archers, a theif or two who can unlock doors and poison you, some mages and other people that fit the theme of an enemy faction.
What I describe is a system where the rules describing how results come out itself can be changed and created at the whim of an artificial life form. It would make up its own rules. When I say "rules a GLaRCS should follow" I mean the rules that you use to decide whether or not a game is complete-playable or not. Don't forget you also would interact with this life form to also tell it how much you liked or hated some result. An ideal GLaRCS doesn't explicitly use evolution as it's only an abstract idea much like an ideal environment in physics, but it's a handy model for emergent computation and adaptation to your idea of fun.
On another note, I also had this idea of a cyborg system where a GLaRCS would just be an agent in your computer that could be interacted with (like Clippy only instead it would actually be helpful to you). You would be making the RPG and you could ask it for suggestions on various things. For example, let's say you're not exactly sure that your enemy lists are balanced properly, this is a question you could ask a GLaRCS to help you with. It would suggest changes in strengths, skills, etc. to enemies and the creation of new ones and the removal of others. Over time as you test out its suggestions it would be able to learn and become more powerful.
What you describe is using dice rolls to make decisions on what to put in a game. In such a system you have already written out a method of turning the results of the rolls into data that works. There's not even conventional intelligence in what you're talking about- you as a human being have already done the design even in a randomly generated system.
And by the way Oblivion doesn't randomly generate actors, it merely selects pre-made people from a pool. Every particular actor you see is actually a case made by a developer- I should know I made up my own enemy groups for Oblivion when I made my own dungeons. For example, I would make a couple of swordfighters, some archers, a theif or two who can unlock doors and poison you, some mages and other people that fit the theme of an enemy faction.
What I describe is a system where the rules describing how results come out itself can be changed and created at the whim of an artificial life form. It would make up its own rules. When I say "rules a GLaRCS should follow" I mean the rules that you use to decide whether or not a game is complete-playable or not. Don't forget you also would interact with this life form to also tell it how much you liked or hated some result. An ideal GLaRCS doesn't explicitly use evolution as it's only an abstract idea much like an ideal environment in physics, but it's a handy model for emergent computation and adaptation to your idea of fun.
On another note, I also had this idea of a cyborg system where a GLaRCS would just be an agent in your computer that could be interacted with (like Clippy only instead it would actually be helpful to you). You would be making the RPG and you could ask it for suggestions on various things. For example, let's say you're not exactly sure that your enemy lists are balanced properly, this is a question you could ask a GLaRCS to help you with. It would suggest changes in strengths, skills, etc. to enemies and the creation of new ones and the removal of others. Over time as you test out its suggestions it would be able to learn and become more powerful.
Its not using dice rolls. Randomly generated was a bad choice of words. Its algorythmns. Which makes a logic to things that it makes :-)
Oblivion didn't, that's not what I meant. I meant they had a mineral / material / worth / equipment type / weapon type system and they adhered to it where you can do steel value * armor value = steel armor. Its not in game, but the developers used it to make their equipment so it was logical.
If you want a powerful suggestion tool...
if party = 4 warriors
or parameter = be tough for warriors
or parameter = be easy for warriors
if be tough for warriors then enemy is immune to weapons and uses magic
if be easy for warriors then enemy is immune to magic and uses weapons
Reading the how to make a dungeon article http://rpgmaker.net/articles/3/... the author discusses 4 types of enemies for anywhere.
- a monster with little HP that isn't much of a danger, but has enormous defense and is coded to escape at the earliest available opportunity.
- a monster that has significantly more HP and attack power than any other monster around, but always appears alone.
- a monster with little in the way of physical attributes but with one or more attacks that hit the entire party.
- a monster that gets two attacks each round.
I'd just have the system generate from there, and have the creatures level up as your party does...
I'm sure I'm still not getting this right, but hopefully my idea is more plausable.
Oblivion didn't, that's not what I meant. I meant they had a mineral / material / worth / equipment type / weapon type system and they adhered to it where you can do steel value * armor value = steel armor. Its not in game, but the developers used it to make their equipment so it was logical.
If you want a powerful suggestion tool...
if party = 4 warriors
or parameter = be tough for warriors
or parameter = be easy for warriors
if be tough for warriors then enemy is immune to weapons and uses magic
if be easy for warriors then enemy is immune to magic and uses weapons
Reading the how to make a dungeon article http://rpgmaker.net/articles/3/... the author discusses 4 types of enemies for anywhere.
- a monster with little HP that isn't much of a danger, but has enormous defense and is coded to escape at the earliest available opportunity.
- a monster that has significantly more HP and attack power than any other monster around, but always appears alone.
- a monster with little in the way of physical attributes but with one or more attacks that hit the entire party.
- a monster that gets two attacks each round.
I'd just have the system generate from there, and have the creatures level up as your party does...
I'm sure I'm still not getting this right, but hopefully my idea is more plausable.
Maybe I will take some time out today and make an enemy generator tool. Based on parameters you set and not AI of course :-)
WolfCoder
3554
No, I'm talking about creating a computer being that designs RPGs. We're talking about artificially created life here (which is actually applied in other fields such as engineering to produce some things that are designed better than any human could even begin to imagine). This stuff is used in our robots too in order to grant them the ability to adapt to changes (ex: it would change the way it walks if one of its legs got damaged to compensate and continue walking).
It's not some spacey mad scientist idea, or at least it used to be. This stuff is applied already, we have enough computer power to use life to do things for us. There's a download link for the virtual creature simulation shown in the video, but if you don't understand what all the controls mean you won't be able to interpret what you see or be able to "grow" anything interesting.
You state tons of rules and algorithms. In scientific studies, they need only define that a good creature could keep a ball as close to them as possible. From this one single goal all sorts of creatures with their strategies just emerged on their own. You even got creatures that would fight the other creature and beat it up vs. focusing on grabbing the ball somehow. Also, if you took land creatures and dropped them into water, eventually they would all adapt and become marine creatures. We're talking about constructs that make up all these rules by themselves, and yet I'm asking people about what they would try to do in order to have a playable RPG.
It's not some spacey mad scientist idea, or at least it used to be. This stuff is applied already, we have enough computer power to use life to do things for us. There's a download link for the virtual creature simulation shown in the video, but if you don't understand what all the controls mean you won't be able to interpret what you see or be able to "grow" anything interesting.
You state tons of rules and algorithms. In scientific studies, they need only define that a good creature could keep a ball as close to them as possible. From this one single goal all sorts of creatures with their strategies just emerged on their own. You even got creatures that would fight the other creature and beat it up vs. focusing on grabbing the ball somehow. Also, if you took land creatures and dropped them into water, eventually they would all adapt and become marine creatures. We're talking about constructs that make up all these rules by themselves, and yet I'm asking people about what they would try to do in order to have a playable RPG.
post=136688
I just looked at Dwarf's fortress. This could be done in Flash from scratch.
go....die?
No, I'm talking about creating a computer being that designs RPGs.
I think I finally understand what you are getting at.
And I think it is probably impossible.
Manifesto
33
Maybe if you have a static world with random generated items, monsters, quests, dungeons, etc., then I think that the game will be good.
Manifesto
33
post=136812
Manifesto you are REALLY missing the point bro.
I know what he is trying to say. A computer that generates hundreds of different RPG's based on the player.
What I am trying to say that instead of making different RPG's, why not just use the program to EXPAND one RPG... ya know?
WolfCoder
3554
post=136764post=136688...
I just looked at Dwarf's fortress. This could be done in Flash from scratch.
And I think it is probably impossible.
No it's not. I already told you this sort of stuff is applied in actual designs (aerodynamics, etc.) and I already posted links to videos. I'm just applying it to RPG games. It's very possible, it's just lots of work and computer power needed to actually implement.
What I am trying to say that instead of making different RPG's, why not just use the program to EXPAND one RPG... ya know?
It just doesn't work like that.
