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AND NOW I REVEAL... MY FINAL FORM! HAHAHA!
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The Wild Rose Rebellion
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CloseIt's such an obvious trope that it almost always shows up in RPGs, and even other genres of games. You just know that when you take down the big bad and everyone's standing around congratulating themselves, you're about to be sucked into another battle if you're lucky, another six or more if you're not. What's your take on multi-formed final bosses?
Personally, I like them. I think it can help make an ending seem more climactic, when used right. Though I think it's very easy to do it wrong. For example:
Final Fantasy VI did it right. A progression of somewhat difficult bosses before facing off with Kefka's final form. It flowed, each form was visually interesting, and it served to show how powerful Kefka had gotten.
Final Fantasy X did it wrong. We have a really good battle with Braska's Final Aeon, followed by an even more intense rematch. If they had ended it there, that would have been fine. Instead we get a boring, slow, and LOOOOOOOONG sequence of killing off your various aeons (have fun if your accuracy stat isn't the best) followed by an impossible to lose final boss against a flying headcrab. The whole thing comes across as if they had some extra disc space and decided to just fill it up with a last minute boss marathon.
So anyway, thoughts?
Personally, I like them. I think it can help make an ending seem more climactic, when used right. Though I think it's very easy to do it wrong. For example:
Final Fantasy VI did it right. A progression of somewhat difficult bosses before facing off with Kefka's final form. It flowed, each form was visually interesting, and it served to show how powerful Kefka had gotten.
Final Fantasy X did it wrong. We have a really good battle with Braska's Final Aeon, followed by an even more intense rematch. If they had ended it there, that would have been fine. Instead we get a boring, slow, and LOOOOOOOONG sequence of killing off your various aeons (have fun if your accuracy stat isn't the best) followed by an impossible to lose final boss against a flying headcrab. The whole thing comes across as if they had some extra disc space and decided to just fill it up with a last minute boss marathon.
So anyway, thoughts?
Dragon Quest IV had the most epic multi-form boss ever that has yet to be topped.
HE HAS A FACE IN HIS STOMACH
HE HAS A FACE IN HIS STOMACH
Shinan
4314
I like it if there's a break between forms. So that you fight the badass and kick his ass and he goes "MUAHAHAH YOU FUCKERS" and flies away to the top of a mountain. Then the player goes through a room with a save point and takes a ski-lift up to the mountain to face Baron von Badass for the last time. Though this time he's using his mountaintop airship. In a massive battle of cannons and badassery. (whereas the last battle was just guns and badassery)
Basically if the final boss changes form I don't mind a chance to save inbetween. Especially if the first encounter was long and hard, you might need a quick break (that's what she said).
Basically if the final boss changes form I don't mind a chance to save inbetween. Especially if the first encounter was long and hard, you might need a quick break (that's what she said).
AznChipmunk
4613
I think this is practically required, unless your single final battle is already multi-parts. I feel like I need to have multiple epic battles at the end after I worked to beat the rest of the game otherwise I might feel a bit cheated.
Darken
3952
Yes I can easily make a comparison to say... B Action Movies. If you set up a very obvious rivalry between the main character and the big obvious villain, there's going to be a climatic 1on1 between them in one form of another. However if the villain just gets a strange boba fett treatment, you'll just be like "Huh? That wasn't supposed to happen!" Even though it wasn't like you wrote the script or anything.
The whole final boss thing with multiple forms is not just a trope, it's a huge expectation. Of course if your game is very very very different from most RPGs then the exclusion of a typical final boss won't be all that weird to the player. I haven't beaten many RPGs mainly because they're too long and I'm more of an action gamer type of person, however when I do beat an RPG, the "final boss expectation" is there.
The whole final boss thing with multiple forms is not just a trope, it's a huge expectation. Of course if your game is very very very different from most RPGs then the exclusion of a typical final boss won't be all that weird to the player. I haven't beaten many RPGs mainly because they're too long and I'm more of an action gamer type of person, however when I do beat an RPG, the "final boss expectation" is there.
Dratio
0
This one is a classic I never get tired of. I like final battles because you go all out, they have the best music, it's the climax and so on. It wouldn't be the same without the last boss mutating somehow.
Another related thing I like is the "NOT OVER YET" syndrome. That is, when you've defeated the boss, all goes well and suddenly he comes back for a last push. That's a guaranteed blood rush to your head, especially if you haven't been able to save after all the other fights.
One of the things I look more forward to on my game is the last battle. Since it's not a commercial game, I can go all out and create any crazy multi-part fight I like.
Another related thing I like is the "NOT OVER YET" syndrome. That is, when you've defeated the boss, all goes well and suddenly he comes back for a last push. That's a guaranteed blood rush to your head, especially if you haven't been able to save after all the other fights.
One of the things I look more forward to on my game is the last battle. Since it's not a commercial game, I can go all out and create any crazy multi-part fight I like.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=145161
The whole final boss thing with multiple forms is not just a trope, it's a huge expectation. Of course if your game is very very very different from most RPGs then the exclusion of a typical final boss won't be all that weird to the player. I haven't beaten many RPGs mainly because they're too long and I'm more of an action gamer type of person, however when I do beat an RPG, the "final boss expectation" is there.
Yeah, I don't really play too many RPGs either, but even still, in non-RPG games there is kind of the expectation of the epic fight sequence at the end of the game.
Like in Cave Story, if the final boss battle was just the first battle sequence against the doctor. That would've been kinda lame.
Or if Ballos only had the first form.
I could never figure out why the final boss never just went to X NUKE X first. Why hold back for 6,000 HP before changing?
TDS
1453
I like the whole final form thing because the person or thing being defeated (and fans) can't talk smack afterward about how they were holding back or was not at full power.
Yeah this is definitely an expectation of sorts for gamers. Even non RPGs do it, and have been doing it for some time.
It could be the equal of a final boss limit break or something. I think in the case of FFVIII, for example, it was Squall and co. trying to beat Ultimecia as she was growing exponentially more powerful as she absorbed time.
post=145168
I could never figure out why the final boss never just went to X NUKE X first. Why hold back for 6,000 HP before changing?
It could be the equal of a final boss limit break or something. I think in the case of FFVIII, for example, it was Squall and co. trying to beat Ultimecia as she was growing exponentially more powerful as she absorbed time.
It could be the equal of a final boss limit break or something. I think in the case of FFVIII, for example, it was Squall and co. trying to beat Ultimecia as she was growing exponentially more powerful as she absorbed time.See, that's fine by me - although it would be neat if, say, Ulti's stats grew in real time. So, the longer you took, the more damage she dealt and the less damage she took. That's the kind of boss growth that interests me. Not so much "welp I guess you expect me to turn into an eldritch horror now". Show me something that eschews forms in favor of some other, more interesting form of increasing power.
E: Better yet, show me something that sets up combinations over the course of the battle - this field effect, that buff, those debuffs - and then springs them at the right moment for ridiculous pain. Smart final bosses are better than bosses whose stats triple when you've dealt X damage.
I mean, sure, but eldritch horrors are so interesting from a theatrical perspective. Theatrics are a part of the package as well.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=145168
I could never figure out why the final boss never just went to X NUKE X first. Why hold back for 6,000 HP before changing?
Well, in Cave Story... you fucked up the doctor's body so he mutated... then you killed the doctor's body so his spirit or whatever possessed something else to become the last form.
In this way last boss forms made perfect sense to me...
Plotwise, most games could use a similar device. Or make up their own... it's not that difficult...
In terms of mechanics, RPGs you'd have to think completely different than the way you would in an action game... not really sure what to say about that though, since I don't really have any specific examples I can think of right now.
Crystalgate
694
I think that a final boss is a good opportunity to test everything the player has learned from the game. With multiple forms you can set up more "tests" than with only one form.
I will however say that all forms should be designed to challenge the player. I have played games where only the final form was a threat and it made me feel that the earlier forms only serves to waste the player's time.
I will however say that all forms should be designed to challenge the player. I have played games where only the final form was a threat and it made me feel that the earlier forms only serves to waste the player's time.
S. F. LaValle
1069
I don't think mutating forms is a necessity so much as an epic scale, achieved by one method or another (such as as multiple parties to attack portions of a single large boss, like in FF7). But yeah, mutations are a common and welcome strategy to achieve this scope. FF4's end routine is one of the simplest, but it suffices.
There's a lot more that can contribute to this feel. Anyone notice how the not-so-final boss might be centered around some kind of gimmick? Then, when you get to the final boss, it's though you're back to your very first boss fight. No gimmicks. Everything you have obtained, every strategy you've developed, is fair game. None of your attacks or magic do more or less damage than normal. There are no weaknesses, immunity only to the obvious status effects, and you have as long as you need to fight it. The complete lack of boundaries really makes me feel like I'm in for the long haul. Good music helps.
There's a lot more that can contribute to this feel. Anyone notice how the not-so-final boss might be centered around some kind of gimmick? Then, when you get to the final boss, it's though you're back to your very first boss fight. No gimmicks. Everything you have obtained, every strategy you've developed, is fair game. None of your attacks or magic do more or less damage than normal. There are no weaknesses, immunity only to the obvious status effects, and you have as long as you need to fight it. The complete lack of boundaries really makes me feel like I'm in for the long haul. Good music helps.
There's a lot more that can contribute to this feel. Anyone notice how the not-so-final boss might be centered around some kind of gimmick? Then, when you get to the final boss, it's though you're back to your very first boss fight. No gimmicks. Everything you have obtained, every strategy you've developed, is fair game. None of your attacks or magic do more or less damage than normal. There are no weaknesses, immunity only to the obvious status effects, and you have as long as you need to fight it. The complete lack of boundaries really makes me feel like I'm in for the long haul. Good music helps.
Saruin form Romancing Saga: Minstrel Song comes to mind, right down to the point about the music. He only has two forms, and the first is only meant to trick you into overextending yourself or draining your resources. However, the second...the second form is one of those video game boss fights where when you beat it, it's less of "Oh gee guys what a challenging battle" and more like "OH THANK JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY"
Neophyte
155
I also really don't care for the gimmicks, so I can see why there are less in the final boss scene. I think at that point in the game, everything literally gets thrown out the window and the most insane things happen. Just look at Chrono Trigger or Earthbound. CT you go INSIDE Lavos or something and fight this huge tentacle dude. Then in the real final boss battle, the panorama is like some rave disco thing that constantly changes and occasionally shows past scenes from the game (which is the most ridiculous thing ever). There's no mistake at that point in the game that you're at the final battle, because the music is also the best.
And Earthbound, uh, do I even need to go there.
And Earthbound, uh, do I even need to go there.
sunshinesan
534
In Wind Waker, Ganon never changes forms, but the way the situation was set up and the music that played made it not even necessary. Though before the fight you had to fight puppet ganon... which had 3 forms...
