DISCUSSION ISN'T DRAMA.

Posts

LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Personally, if an employee of mine ever failed to tell me when he thought I might be wrong, I'd fire him. By not arguing with me, he is showing that he does not care about making the product the best it can be.

Any time you frown on someone for pointing out the problems with something you decided or created, you're basically saying that you don't care about your decision or creation being improved in every possible way. This is okay if it's something you've abandoned and given up on in favor of other projects, or if there is a severe time constraint that prevents you from working on it any more than you already have. But for something you still care about, why the FUCK would you ever want people not to tell you what they perceive as problems with it? And it also makes me absolutely furious when people fail to talk to me about things I'm working on. I wish my game page had another hundred comments listing all the problems with it and arguing about the best ways to fix them. Though I realize most people have their own games to work on and don't have the time, you'd think they could at least spare ten minutes arguing with me after spending 15 hours playing the game.
I think the main problem we have with criticism is that much of it is posed in a very direct way, which is different than other RM sites because there is a tighter group here who feel more comfortable with expressing their real gripes with one another in a constructive manner. Newbies to this place take it as being hostile, and seriously, it's no wonder since they aren't used to that kind of atmosphere. I certainly saw it this way before joining, and seeing as how I'm still not even close to being a veteran of the community, some of the comments still astound me with how direct they are.

When posting criticism, the goal should not JUST be to provide feedback in a constructive way, but to also not sound like an all-knowing douche when you do it. If there's no mix of "I like this, AND I like that", many people are bound to construe the comment as "this sucks and I can do better, here's a tip from a pro". There are some people in the community that take their games WAY too seriously, and they assume everyone else has the same mindset.

The game pages are a godsend, we should treat each and every post with respect and be mindful of what it is we are actually trying to say. Miscommunication is a tragic thing.



Anyway, in terms of Soli's review I thought it was fair, and the drama that followed was better than going to the movies. The only thing that breaks my heart is to see comments like "I was gonna play this, thanks for preventing me from wasting my valuable time". I see those everywhere, and I don't particularly perceive these people as having very strong individualistic minds. We shouldn't just be critical of a work, but we should be critical of the opinions of others as well.

If your hard drive space and 10 mins of your time to find out if you'd like the game are so goddamn valuable to you, then by all means, choose your favorite reviewer and believe every word they say blindly. By announcing that to everyone you're only making yourself look bad. (Yay, my first rant in months!)
i am occasionally of the "lol rpgmaker" variety
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
For the record, I tried to keep my responses fairly calm and measured. It got a little heated in places but I do not think it can really be accurately labeled as "lol drama". More of a disagreement than anything else.

If anyone is picturing me crying my eyes out a 2.5 Star review, well go on doing that if it makes you happy, but really all I've been doing is trying internally to come to a good compromise between things I can change to make the game more accessible, and things I like about the game and want to keep.

Disagreement about design choices and stylistic decisions is part of what this site is for--drama would be anything getting in the WAY of what the site is for.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
post=149598
I think the main problem we have with criticism is that much of it is posed in a very direct way...

When posting criticism, the goal should not JUST be to provide feedback in a constructive way, but to also not sound like an all-knowing douche when you do it. If there's no mix of "I like this, AND I like that", many people are bound to construe the comment as "this sucks and I can do better, here's a tip from a pro".

I cannot possibly disagree more strongly. If people aren't able to take direct criticism, they should go back to preschool until they are. The goal of language is to communicate information, and I should not have to couch my language with things I don't mean or that aren't related to my point just to get you to listen. If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.

post=149598
The only thing that breaks my heart is to see comments like "I was gonna play this, thanks for preventing me from wasting my valuable time".

Sometimes a comment can be useful for this purpose, like when they tell you important information that the game description leaves out, like... oh... the fact that it's a dungeon crawler, or that it has 10 hours of puzzles. There are lots of people who don't like certain types of games, and I guess that's legit, though complaining that a game is of a genre you don't like is kind of dumb. But when the comments are just talking about difficulty or balance or something, yeah, that's pretty dense.
post=149605
post=149598
I think the main problem we have with criticism is that much of it is posed in a very direct way...

When posting criticism, the goal should not JUST be to provide feedback in a constructive way, but to also not sound like an all-knowing douche when you do it. If there's no mix of "I like this, AND I like that", many people are bound to construe the comment as "this sucks and I can do better, here's a tip from a pro".
I cannot possibly disagree more strongly. If people aren't able to take direct criticism, they should go back to preschool until they are. The goal of language is to communicate information, and I should not have to couch my language with things I don't mean or that aren't related to my point just to get you to listen. If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.


My point here is to be conscious of who you're talking to. If it's a member I've never heard of, who only has one project, I'm not going to tell them "this is horrible, do this, this, and this". Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I stand pretty firmly on the issue. It's easy to intimidate newer people, and I think a lot of the self proclaimed "vets" don't realize this (or care).
post=149605
I cannot possibly disagree more strongly. If people aren't able to take direct criticism, they should go back to preschool until they are. The goal of language is to communicate information, and I should not have to couch my language with things I don't mean or that aren't related to my point just to get you to listen.

You failed to address the "all-knowing douche" tidbit. A lot of comments that people make can VERY easily come off as the poster being a prick, especially if they fail to actually be constructive in the comment. While I agree that being direct is not really the problem, often times people fail to pay attention to how they write when being so direct and that can come off as aggressive/mean.

post=149605
If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.

I don't know where you pulled this statistic from, but you're completely wrong. If I get offended by some asshole's comment, it doesn't automatically (as you suggest) mean I'm in the wrong. His comment could have very well been uncalled for, nonconstructive, or straight-up douchebaggery. A direct comment doesn't mean it's a good comment. (By good, I mean that it pointed out an actual issue and was constructive about it).
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
Pardon me, but I'd like to back up a little here and address something...

from WIP
I take offense to the claim that game profiles PREVENT discussion. The problem is that people just keep going to the forum index, don't see anything, and then refresh and see what comes up after that. Games on RMN are more than just a forum topic, unlike other, prefabbed sites.

The reason gamepages don't get as much attention is because, as said before, they aren't forum threads and they aren't checked as frequently.

But what if they were linked through the forums?

The site already bumps games up the unsorted game page list when they're updated with a blog/screenshot/whatever, so what if there was a section of the forums that listed these games like threads? People would be able to see when something was changed, click the link to the gamepage and check out what's new. Plus, if it were listed among the other forum groups, it'd be in an area many users look more often. We could turn the problem into the solution that way.

I know you're trying to keep the forums and game stuff apart, WIP, but I think this could really work.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
No comment is ever nonconstructive. Everyone says everything for a reason. If you can't see past your own personal self-esteem issues to perceive that reason, then that's your own fault. Every comment serves a purpose, and you might disagree with that purpose, but that's not an excuse to ever get upset that they simply said it.
post=149618
People would be able to see when something was changed, click the link to the gamepage and check out what's new.


Isn't this what subscriptions are for.
post=149620
No comment is ever nonconstructive. Everyone says everything for a reason. If you can't see past your own personal self-esteem issues to perceive that reason, then that's your own fault. Every comment serves a purpose, and you might disagree with that purpose, but that's not an excuse to ever get upset that they simply said it.


That is complete bullshit. Every comment may serve a purpose, but if that purpose is never EXPLAINED or TOLD to the person, it is not constructive. If someone says, "Your graphics clash horribly" and leave it at that, the designer is left with little, if nothing, to work with. Maybe they can't see the clash, what then? The commenter has the responsibility of explaining themselves if they are going to comment, good or bad, about something, otherwise it's not helpful. It's not a matter of whether or not you agree with it, it's a matter of whether the commenter is constructive about what they say.
If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.

Okay. Call me an n-word jiggaboo coon and see what happens.

Just to get you to think about your comment above.
The goal of language is to communicate information, and I should not have to couch my language with things I don't mean or that aren't related to my point just to get you to listen. If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.

To elaborate on my above post, no, this is wrong, broski. The goal of language is to effectively communicate information. In an adult society and in adult interaction, you can't be expected to SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT and get away with it. Sure, you have the freedom to say whatever you wish, but you also have to take the consequences for doing so, whether the case is that you're wrong, offended someone, or just flat out don't know what you're talking about. Language is a tool, and just like any other tool, can be nonconstructive or just flat out destructive.

While honesty and sometimes bluntness are appreciated communication tools, so is tact and common sense. The person who feels they can ineffectively say whatever they want willy nilly and everyone should expect to listen to them is no better than a child. A community like this is no different. While drama and hurt egos will be a part of any communication equation, if we're just spouting words without thinking about them like a bunch of babies, then it's pretty much all for nothing.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
post=149622
Isn't this what subscriptions are for.


Is there a way to subscribe to every page on the site at once? And then automatically subscribe to every future page that's added, as soon as it's added? That would be kind of nice. Then I could see, "Oh, hey, these four games are the most recently updated, and I've never heard of any of them. Maybe I'll look at the page for one or two of them and see what's up." Not sure how spammy that would end up being, though. Would need some sort of auto-delete after one week.

A lot of us just want to see what people are talking about lately. Replacing the list of recently updated files on the front page with a list of recently posted comments would be a nice change. Seeing the first half-line of the latest ten comments would be way more interesting than seeing a list of "THETITLE.png" and "wip_battle2.png" and "S4.JPG". Which is basically useless. It doesn't even tell you what game it's for.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
OK, that's the same thing that's on the front page that I just complained about, but the version you linked does at least say which game each thing is from. But it still shows new files and blog posts, not comments.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
The subscriptions and the feed both have the same problem: accessibility. Oh, they'll keep you updated, but people don't frequent them like they do the forums. The goal here is getting folks interested and responding to the gamepages, and that can be achieved by making those pages accessible where they're likely to find them. And I don't mean 'find them' in the 'hunt them down' sense, but rather that they could be something they stumble across instead.
post=149628
If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.
Okay. Call me an n-word jiggaboo coon and see what happens.

Just to get you to think about your comment above.


you... you... n-word jiggaboo....!
you son of a bitch

you'll rue this day
If someone gets offended by someone else, there's roughly a 99.9% chance that the person who feels offended is in the wrong.


Yeah, now go try it out in a bar.