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65TH ANERVERSRY OF THE HIROSHIMA BOMBINGS
Posts
Gongo
36
Gongo
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Closepost=150418
god just shut up
nuke everyone
good to see the education system is doing its job
post=150370post=150320Not trying to be funny, but isn't there no victims to apologize to.
65 years and still no apology to the victims
That bomb wiped out the whole city.
Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist, and no not everyone died, although those that survived went though hell, no one should go though what they did
post=150398
Speaking of apologizing those Japs did quite a lot of war crimes during the war that they don't even acknowledge (much to the anger of neighbouring countries). So why apologize for the most AWESOME BOMBS EVER DROPPED?
SO MUCH THIS.
post=150410
You must know that 'to end the war,' wasn't the only reason. Don't try and shift all the blame onto Japan.
America pushed for a FULL surrender - which they knew they wouldn't get. They wouldn't compromise, even though Japan was wanting to end the war before the atomic bombings. In fact Japan put forward terms virtually identical to the ones accepted after the bombings which America chose not to accept. Japan was being reduced to rubble anyway - they were running out of food and oil and knew defeat was inevitable, the bombings weren't militarily necessary. I don't think an invasion was either.
Also America couldn't afford not to bomb a country after they had spent billions on the project. Japan was the perfect guinea pig, and though Truman could justify the bombings of Hiroshima because of the military base(even though way more civilians were killed than any kind of military force), Nagasaki was just...
It's hard to conclude whether or not it was the right thing to do but even if you think it was, thousands of civilians were killed and deserve to be berieved :(
I'm not trying to 'take sides,' or anything by the way, before everyone jumps me! War is tricky!
You seem to know your stuff! Also, there is a belief that Truman dropped the bombs as a show of power, and one of the first 'hostilities' of the Cold War, to the emerging Russia, who was really the only major power left besides the US after the war.
Japan has a military, but it is written in their consitution that they are not allowed to declare war on anyone (hence it is a self-defence force rather than a conventional military). If you're not wasting your resources fighting wars then it leaves you more money for developing GIANT ROBOTS.
True, it was only luck that allowed them to 'slide' their way into having a self defense force and the military they do have. It's quite advanced as well. The Diet is currently debating whether or not to pursue repealing the 9th Constitution, given the growing power of China and North Korea.
True, it was only luck that allowed them to 'slide' their way into having a self defense force and the military they do have.
It wasn't really luck so much as it was necessity. Back in those days, the US was becoming more and more occupied with the Korean War and moved much of the occupation/garrison force from Japan out to the frontline in Korea. Japan needed a way to defend itself without relying completely on US protection and the US needed to be able to move out of Japan without risk to the latter's survival.
It's quite advanced as well.
It's not really advanced given that the JSDF's air force still primarily flies legacy F-4J Phantoms and the somewhat more modern but aging F-15J Eagles. The JSDF's navy's recent issues with crew/officer capabilities wasn't really good for publicity, either. I haven't much info on their ground forces, but I suspect it isn't much better.
The Diet is currently debating whether or not to pursue repealing the 9th Constitution, given the growing power of China and North Korea.
To be honest, I don't see such a thing happening (what you're referring to is the "no offensive use of self-defense force" clause, right?). Japan is in too much of a peace-dumb mindset, or what we call "heiwa boke", to fully understand the world situation.
deboo
85
post=150448haha my coursework for history is international relations up to and after the cuban missile crisis, which...loosely covers the bombings.
You seem to know your stuff! Also, there is a belief that Truman dropped the bombs as a show of power, and one of the first 'hostilities' of the Cold War, to the emerging Russia, who was really the only major power left besides the US after the war.
and yes, this is true!
It wasn't really luck so much as it was necessity. Back in those days, the US was becoming more and more occupied with the Korean War and moved much of the occupation/garrison force from Japan out to the frontline in Korea. Japan needed a way to defend itself without relying completely on US protection and the US needed to be able to move out of Japan without risk to the latter's survival.
I meant 'luck' in the fashion that even though all that is true, the US still could have told them to go fuck themselves irregardless but instead they went like, 'well, I guess you guys can have a self defense force.' The actual situation was a lot more complex with that, I don't mean to dumb it down like that, though.
It's not really advanced given that the JSDF's air force still primarily flies legacy F-4J Phantoms and the somewhat more modern but aging F-15J Eagles. The JSDF's navy's recent issues with crew/officer capabilities wasn't really good for publicity, either. I haven't much info on their ground forces, but I suspect it isn't much better.
Really? I hear due to the trading of tech with the US (and Japan's own technological prowess), their tech capabilities were pretty impressive given their circumstances.
To be honest, I don't see such a thing happening (what you're referring to is the "no offensive use of self-defense force" clause, right?). Japan is in too much of a peace-dumb mindset, or what we call "heiwa boke", to fully understand the world situation.
True, but there's enough awareness of the issue for the Diet to even debate it in the first place, yeah?
I meant 'luck' in the fashion that even though all that is true, the US still could have told them to go fuck themselves irregardless but instead they went like, 'well, I guess you guys can have a self defense force.' The actual situation was a lot more complex with that, I don't mean to dumb it down like that, though.Ah, yes, in that fashion I guess it can be taken as luck. However, the situation of that time would have made a "no, no military for you!" call by the US to be rather illogical at best. The complexity of the situation merits more indepth research though, so I'll just leave it at that.
Really? I hear due to the trading of tech with the US (and Japan's own technological prowess), their tech capabilities were pretty impressive given their circumstances.Japan does indeed possess technological capabilities that rival first-world nations like the US. The problem lies in that Japan cannot (or will not) field those technologies to their fullest extent because of limitations or problems with hardware or logistics, or simply for political/budgetary reasons.
Take those F-4J Phantoms, for example: They are 52 year old airframe designs for crying out loud! There's a limit to how much such a legacy aircraft can do before they simply cannot compete. There are the F-15J Eagles and the recent F-2s to compensate, but the former's aging pretty badly and the latter is still small in numbers, based on the F-16 Fighting Falcon airframe, and expensive to produce.
The JSDF Navy is a completely different story, to make things more interesting. Their ships, especially the Aegis-class ships, are state-of-the-art. They are, however, crewed by incompetent crew members and officers. The couple incidents of JSDF Navy ships colliding with merchant vessels and sinking them and causing fatal civilian casualties put a big dent in the JSDF's reputation.
All in all, Japan as a country is advanced, but to say their defense force is advanced is a hilarious joke.
True, but there's enough awareness of the issue for the Diet to even debate it in the first place, yeah?There actually isn't any such awareness as far as I know. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if any such amendment to the constitution was rejected outright unanimously by both chambers of the Japanese
EDIT: Fixed something. ;-;
On a related note, apparently some survivors of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima went to the US for surgery and then appeared on a TV show where the host (unbeknownst to the Japanese) had the co-pilot from the Enola Gay (plane that dropped the bomb) as a guest to meet one of them.
In fairness to the co-pilot he does seem remorseful, still in pretty poor taste though.
In fairness to the co-pilot he does seem remorseful, still in pretty poor taste though.
Darken
3952
honestly if i was the pilot I would just anonymously make the donation and not even appear on the show, maybe drink myself to death afterwards
Kaempfer
1932
post=150338
should've invested in some SDI defence
haha
Also:
Everything useful has already been said, but let's not forget the Japanese army was filled to the brim with assholes. It's not like the Japanese were offering acceptable terms for their surrender.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 hey guess what apologize for THIS SHIT
p.s.
post=150345
if anything, a powerful bomb untested on humans could have resulted in millions of more deaths if its "maiden explosion" had occurred in New York or Moscow. Truman made the right call.
This is the best point in this topic. There have been 2053 nuclear detonations in history. Pretty much every subsequent one makes the two in Japan look like a joke. Let's just be happy we haven't seen any of those dropped on people!
post=150494post=150338haha
should've invested in some SDI defence
Also:
Everything useful has already been said, but let's not forget the Japanese army was filled to the brim with assholes. It's not like the Japanese were offering acceptable terms for their surrender.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 hey guess what apologize for THIS SHIT
p.s.post=150345
if anything, a powerful bomb untested on humans could have resulted in millions of more deaths if its "maiden explosion" had occurred in New York or Moscow. Truman made the right call.
This is the best point in this topic. There have been 2053 nuclear detonations in history. Pretty much every subsequent one makes the two in Japan look like a joke. Let's just be happy we haven't seen any of those dropped on people!
Yeah. We saw the horrors of the bombs on humans firsthand. What if those horrors hadn't been seen until a more powerful version was developed? It was a gamechanger, but if could have been far worse. The Cold Wars was definitely nerfed by the fact that the powerful weapons had already been used on humans and subsequently well-documented.
I just wish war wasn't part of life. But that's quite the wish.
Don't normally come into General Discussion (so I may forget to check back), but just wanted to state my opinion.
Personally, I feel that America really doesn't need to apologize. Maybe it's because since there was the Japanese occupation here in Singapore, and if it wasn't for the bombings, it probably wouldn't have ended (and I would be hating the Japanese).
Personally, I feel that America really doesn't need to apologize. Maybe it's because since there was the Japanese occupation here in Singapore, and if it wasn't for the bombings, it probably wouldn't have ended (and I would be hating the Japanese).
Canuck
0
There was an interesting article in the Japan Times the other day proposing a new theory to the Japanese surrender.
It said the Soviet's crushing victory in Japan controlled Manchuria was much more of a threat than the two atomic bombs (mainly for loss of resources coming from there an Korea), and the Japanese knew if they waited to surrender any longer, it would be to the Soviet's and not to the Russians, so they did it earlier to the Americans.
Anyways, an apology would be nice, but an apology from the Emperor of Japan (as the head of state) would be nicer. Kan recently apologized to Korea on the forced annexation anniversary, and for the first time no cabinet members went to Yasukuni Shrine, so we're going in the right direction.
It said the Soviet's crushing victory in Japan controlled Manchuria was much more of a threat than the two atomic bombs (mainly for loss of resources coming from there an Korea), and the Japanese knew if they waited to surrender any longer, it would be to the Soviet's and not to the Russians, so they did it earlier to the Americans.
Anyways, an apology would be nice, but an apology from the Emperor of Japan (as the head of state) would be nicer. Kan recently apologized to Korea on the forced annexation anniversary, and for the first time no cabinet members went to Yasukuni Shrine, so we're going in the right direction.
Kaempfer
1932
Haha, "new theory"? The reason the Japanese COULDN'T enter into proper peace talks with the US is because the only embassy they had remaining in 1945 was the Soviet embassy, which was suddenly closed when the war in Europe ended and the Soviets suddenly realised they could invade Manchuria pretty much unopposed. If not for the Soviet stance, the Japanese probably could have negotiated a near-total surrender with the Americans before the bombs. When the Japanese surrendered unconditionally, the Soviets lost a big opportunity. They were pissed, so they partitioned Korea and kept their eyes on Manchuria for years afterward. It's what caused decades of terrible Sino-Russian relations.
Canuck
0
Someone's condescending over the Japan Times.
The article also said the Japanese had a million troops in Manchuria at the time.
The article also said the Japanese had a million troops in Manchuria at the time.
Kaempfer
1932
Not really. They had 80 or so divisions, I think (my memory is a bit fuzzy on the exact number), but almost none of them were full strength. A full strength division is somewhere between 8000 and 12000 (usually), but the Japanese were so badly battered that I doubt they had half a million combat troops in Manchuria, including the border militia and Manchurian army (what as left of it, anyway. It was very large, at one point).
The situation was comparable to Germany's "paper divisions". On paper, Hitler had something like 150000 troops defending Berlin (15 divisions), but in reality he only had less than three. Oh well!
Still, half a million men is a large number of troops, so the Soviets needed time to pull army divisions Eastward, as they only had about two-three hundred thousand in Siberia at the time. Then the nukes went off, and the war ended! No more invasion of Manchuria!
The situation was comparable to Germany's "paper divisions". On paper, Hitler had something like 150000 troops defending Berlin (15 divisions), but in reality he only had less than three. Oh well!
Still, half a million men is a large number of troops, so the Soviets needed time to pull army divisions Eastward, as they only had about two-three hundred thousand in Siberia at the time. Then the nukes went off, and the war ended! No more invasion of Manchuria!
