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DIALOGUE, CHARACTERS, AND YOU.
Posts
Crystalgate
694
Crystalgate
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CloseI think trying to make dialogs with nameless NPCs realistic is a lost cause. However, I do think you shouldn't make the unrealism stick out like a sore thumb. So I'd overlook if NPCs tell me something you normally wouldn't tell a stranger, but not so much if they take it one level further and tell me things you'd only want to confide to a friend.
Zephyr
1241
If the heroes can talk, how does it come that almost every single NPC you "talk" to is the only one actually talking?
The most cases I see heroes talk or comment back is if a hero has a personal opinion of the subject or if it story critical. It's like the heroes are mute otherwise.
I think either you make the heroes actually start the conversation or you're given choices of what to ask the NPC.
The most cases I see heroes talk or comment back is if a hero has a personal opinion of the subject or if it story critical. It's like the heroes are mute otherwise.
I think either you make the heroes actually start the conversation or you're given choices of what to ask the NPC.
This is mostly a holdover from the old days of NES RPGs where people only COULD say one thing due to engine limitations. You can be a lot more elaborate now, but most people don't because they've been conditioned to think NPCs should only say one thing. Its little wonder most players ignore NPCs entirely in most games.
Some games do go the extra mile though. On that springs to mind for me was in Lunar, where almost every single NPC had at least three or four lines they could say. Of course, there are limits to how realistic you can actually make this. Some games like Oblivion tried to make NPCs more life-like, with schedules and habits and randomly striking up conversations with other NPCs, but that's well beyond what most of us are capable of. (Also, the AI had a tendency to be randomly stupid and lead to hilarious moments, but that's another story..)
Some games do go the extra mile though. On that springs to mind for me was in Lunar, where almost every single NPC had at least three or four lines they could say. Of course, there are limits to how realistic you can actually make this. Some games like Oblivion tried to make NPCs more life-like, with schedules and habits and randomly striking up conversations with other NPCs, but that's well beyond what most of us are capable of. (Also, the AI had a tendency to be randomly stupid and lead to hilarious moments, but that's another story..)
If I had to suffer a barrage of trivial dialogue every time I talked to an NPC, I would stop talking to NPCs. My attention is being abused.
Keeping NPC dialogue short and sweet while adding the odd "flavor" NPC (with amusing totally irrelevant dialogue) is good enough.
Keeping NPC dialogue short and sweet while adding the odd "flavor" NPC (with amusing totally irrelevant dialogue) is good enough.
*has NPC recite all of shakespeares Macbeth*
But yeah, I'm trying to see what works best with NPCs, as I want people to want to talk to them, but not ever feel forced to. Usually I just do what I always do and make them silly. I love silly stuff.
But yeah, I'm trying to see what works best with NPCs, as I want people to want to talk to them, but not ever feel forced to. Usually I just do what I always do and make them silly. I love silly stuff.
Edifice had an item that instantly killed Lolitas, and had a chance to start playing a midi version of Bad Romance while the lyrics were sang by the Creeper Glove and were commented on by your party.
What I'm trying to say is that the Creeper Glove is the best NPC ever.
What I'm trying to say is that the Creeper Glove is the best NPC ever.
Anyone interested in characters talking back to NPCs should check out Grandia and Grandia II. I agree with you in general nukei. Thanks for the links Solitayre.
post=211756post=211741
What I'm trying to say is that the Creeper Glove is the best Vaporware NPC ever.
tonfa/RichardHawk is slowly finishing it.
cho
0
i think the point is your NPCs shouldn't be saying random bullshit, and if they are then you're approaching it the wrong way
i mean it seems pretty pointless to even talk about NPCs at all if we're just going to say they're pointless no matter what because who cares
who cares
i mean it seems pretty pointless to even talk about NPCs at all if we're just going to say they're pointless no matter what because who cares
who cares
I've been writing dialog for my little game and taking in feedback from everyone that seems to have posted here as well. To combat my LONG, wordy dialog, I did a list of things:
0. Write all dialog in MS Word to use spell check (and copy and paste into the game later)
1. Write the scene.
2. Write the characters participating.
3. Write the point what you'll be doing next (slay this, visit that, find something)
4. Write the dialog and it should be no more than 10 turns of talking (2 people talk each with 5 turns)
5. Forget semicolons. Even if MS Word tells you its gramatically correct, humans think its not.
For NPCs, they give facts, but also I tried to be logical, like 2 NPCs are having a conversation and you hear about it. 2 friends talking and you overhear their most intimate details. Like that time in California when I was at a Chinese restaurant in San Fernando where I overheard a middle aged couple talking about how hot the orgy was last night.
0. Write all dialog in MS Word to use spell check (and copy and paste into the game later)
1. Write the scene.
2. Write the characters participating.
3. Write the point what you'll be doing next (slay this, visit that, find something)
4. Write the dialog and it should be no more than 10 turns of talking (2 people talk each with 5 turns)
5. Forget semicolons. Even if MS Word tells you its gramatically correct, humans think its not.
For NPCs, they give facts, but also I tried to be logical, like 2 NPCs are having a conversation and you hear about it. 2 friends talking and you overhear their most intimate details. Like that time in California when I was at a Chinese restaurant in San Fernando where I overheard a middle aged couple talking about how hot the orgy was last night.
post=210833
Honestly, I haven't played many games with engaging characters. Commercial games aside, I haven't found a game which gave me a reason to care (by which I mean, I actually care if the guys die or not) about the main characters.
No one really does care about the main characters in old school RPGs. What people care about is their perceptions of how the game will end. Twist away from how people think the game will end and you'll get a bigger reaction. Such as have the bad guy win. Have the good guy become the bad guy. Have the main character die after you've grinded for 30 hours. Almost kill the player, with a death blow and the final boss only to be saved.
nukei
0
Give me some more life in those dialogues, really. Even though they had accents and all that, it just seemed out of place, like Griever mentioned. Don't just make miscellaneous one liners like, "Hey man!" and that's it. Talk about something, or in Griever's case, have a group of people talking to each other about an issue which generalizes the state of affairs that a country is in.
However, it seems that most people already have this down, or at least I assume so.
A small idea is to give players an incentive to talk to NPCs, characterize them as human, let them talk to their friends and acquaintances, as well as giving out important information all at the same time. Maybe a group of adventurers in the hunter's guild might be speaking of some dangerous monster having a big weak spot. For regular townspeople, maybe add different things ranging from what they saw (maybe even treasure or a strange man) to the easy tips for daily life in that town which will give the player benefits indirectly. For example, maybe there's a charitable woman who would give free healing somewhere in a corner in town, and some people are talking about her.
Condition your players to talk to NPCs, like conditioning them to check every vase in house for potential treasure.
However, it seems that most people already have this down, or at least I assume so.
A small idea is to give players an incentive to talk to NPCs, characterize them as human, let them talk to their friends and acquaintances, as well as giving out important information all at the same time. Maybe a group of adventurers in the hunter's guild might be speaking of some dangerous monster having a big weak spot. For regular townspeople, maybe add different things ranging from what they saw (maybe even treasure or a strange man) to the easy tips for daily life in that town which will give the player benefits indirectly. For example, maybe there's a charitable woman who would give free healing somewhere in a corner in town, and some people are talking about her.
Condition your players to talk to NPCs, like conditioning them to check every vase in house for potential treasure.
post=211768
If your NPCs are addressing the hero for no reason whatsoever then you're approaching it the wrong way.
When was the last time you went up to a random person and said something like:
"Hey! The Sainsbury's (read: item store) has a large stock of soft-drinks (read: potions)" ???
I liked how only NPCs with something to say said something in FFXII. It made cities lively while also making sense - that woman really doesn't give a fuck about you, but the braggart does.
Like I posted in one of my blogs. You're playing a game, not reading a novel. Playing > reading.
It all dependson what you want with your game. Like Kevin Smith and Quinton movies. 20 minutes of dialog in 1 scene. Sure super nerds like to quote everything word for word, but its a movie. Just like this is a game. Cator to why people are enjoying your medium.
Another thing about dialog is like searching for hidden loot in people's houses. Do you want to check every single chest of drawers or would you rather have something shine and catch your eye like Resident Evil 2?
It all dependson what you want with your game. Like Kevin Smith and Quinton movies. 20 minutes of dialog in 1 scene. Sure super nerds like to quote everything word for word, but its a movie. Just like this is a game. Cator to why people are enjoying your medium.
Another thing about dialog is like searching for hidden loot in people's houses. Do you want to check every single chest of drawers or would you rather have something shine and catch your eye like Resident Evil 2?
Pasty
908
is it always interesting talking only to the braggart? i'd think you'd run out of subjects at that point if you limited your game's NPCs to a few character archetypes simply because they're the ones who would actually speak in that scenario.
i think violating normal rules of realistic conversation is okay as long as the participants have something interesting to say. if the end result is something that informs or entertains the player, i don't personally care how realistic the participants were in getting to that point.
i think violating normal rules of realistic conversation is okay as long as the participants have something interesting to say. if the end result is something that informs or entertains the player, i don't personally care how realistic the participants were in getting to that point.
Mother games should absolutely be looked to, in terms of good, quirky, dialogue that just catches one's attention. When it comes to actually considering a game where I ENJOY going around talking to every NPC, Earthbound is one of them, Mario RPG is another, and Pokemon is another.
--Earthbound is quirky, as said, and plain interesting. Everyone says different strange things that don't relate to each other. It's in its own category.
--Mario RPG was just plain fun. Not as quirky or unexpected as Earthbound, but it was enjoyable to go around talking to everybody, especially considering you were in control of a cast of famous first party characers.
--Pokemon's is good because you're speaking with NPCs which casually discuss the world around you. I mentioned Pokemon for that reason over the others, since I am interested in the world of Pokemon more-so than that of other games, and talking to the NPCs actually intrigues me.
In terms of drop-dead boring and amateur writing, Breath of Fire takes the cake. It's a good game besides, but the dialogue is so lacking character and definition that it does not reach out to me. It would have been a favorite, HAD its dialogue actually been at least good. That's how important dialogue can be.
I noticed with RPGMaker games and the like, the creators fill dialogue boxes with long, verbose, self-indulgent drivel which carries no interest to the reader no matter how pretentious he be. Aside from that, you have the to-the-point, boring, mediocre mess that has no ounce of value to it at all. Both are great aspects of games-I-don't-want-to-play.
Good dialogue and good conversations comes from having well-defined characters and adversaries, so that in turn NPCs have more interesting things about which to talk. It's all connected.
--Earthbound is quirky, as said, and plain interesting. Everyone says different strange things that don't relate to each other. It's in its own category.
--Mario RPG was just plain fun. Not as quirky or unexpected as Earthbound, but it was enjoyable to go around talking to everybody, especially considering you were in control of a cast of famous first party characers.
--Pokemon's is good because you're speaking with NPCs which casually discuss the world around you. I mentioned Pokemon for that reason over the others, since I am interested in the world of Pokemon more-so than that of other games, and talking to the NPCs actually intrigues me.
In terms of drop-dead boring and amateur writing, Breath of Fire takes the cake. It's a good game besides, but the dialogue is so lacking character and definition that it does not reach out to me. It would have been a favorite, HAD its dialogue actually been at least good. That's how important dialogue can be.
I noticed with RPGMaker games and the like, the creators fill dialogue boxes with long, verbose, self-indulgent drivel which carries no interest to the reader no matter how pretentious he be. Aside from that, you have the to-the-point, boring, mediocre mess that has no ounce of value to it at all. Both are great aspects of games-I-don't-want-to-play.
Good dialogue and good conversations comes from having well-defined characters and adversaries, so that in turn NPCs have more interesting things about which to talk. It's all connected.
