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TANKING FOR HEALTH AND... WELL, HEALTH
Posts
Craze
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CloseYou guys just need to play more Hoplite/Ninja/Wilding in Etrian Odyssey 3, which has all of you except Karsu and maybe Anaryo whooped.
Ninjas and Wildings are summoner tanks, Ninjas can pick somebody to be targeted, Hoplites can branch off into various forms of provoke and/or bodyguard tanking. There is also sub-classing (Hoplite using Ninja skills to clone themselves, what?)
Whoever said that 90% of RPGs don't have "pick who gets attacked" in any form:
-All FFs, most prominent in FFI (DQ-style), FFIV (forced rows) and FFXIII (provoke as Protector)
-All DQs (first two slots take brunt of hits, third takes fewer and fourth takes even fewer
-Etrian Odyssey series (forced rows + branching tanks (EO3 is the best))
-Any game with a 2D playing field (wRPGs; Torment, Baldur's Gate, etc. allow positioning - not 2D as in Tales of)
Pretty sure that's at least 10%, especially since everything else is a derivative of these games. =D (Well, reverse derivative in EO's case, but EO2/3 are actually playable (get EO3)).
Ninjas and Wildings are summoner tanks, Ninjas can pick somebody to be targeted, Hoplites can branch off into various forms of provoke and/or bodyguard tanking. There is also sub-classing (Hoplite using Ninja skills to clone themselves, what?)
Whoever said that 90% of RPGs don't have "pick who gets attacked" in any form:
-All FFs, most prominent in FFI (DQ-style), FFIV (forced rows) and FFXIII (provoke as Protector)
-All DQs (first two slots take brunt of hits, third takes fewer and fourth takes even fewer
-Etrian Odyssey series (forced rows + branching tanks (EO3 is the best))
-Any game with a 2D playing field (wRPGs; Torment, Baldur's Gate, etc. allow positioning - not 2D as in Tales of)
Pretty sure that's at least 10%, especially since everything else is a derivative of these games. =D (Well, reverse derivative in EO's case, but EO2/3 are actually playable (get EO3)).
ashriot
222
I've always wanted to see a caster tank of some kind ever since the "drain-tank Warlock" in WoW.
The best type of caster I've thought of for this would be an illusionist who would be able to use a combination of evasion, control, and temporary hit points to tank for the group.
A few abilities could be something like setting up a decoy that draws attention and absorbs attacks. Mirror Image on him/herself that would cause the next few physical attacks to miss. Imaginary armor would absorb incoming damage until it shattered. Deflect elements could set up a shell of light that would reduce incoming magic damage and False Life would temporarily increase his maximum hit points.
The illusionist could also distract enemies with ghost images that would keep them off allies. They could also render an ally invisible to completely shut down an enemy who is targeting that ally. Another party protection spell could be something like terrifying visage that temporarily gives an ally a frightening look that would decrease their threat against enemies. Also, using a clone spell could transfer some threat from an ally to the illusionist.
For causing damage, I've always liked the idea that an illusionist could stack up imaginary wounds on a target that cause periodic damage. This ability could stack a few times on each target but if allowed to drop off, the enemy would begin to regain some of the lost health because he/she/it would begin to see through the illusion. The illusionist could also fire off some sort of pain spike ability that would cause damage that scales with the number of stacks of wounds and would end the effect so that they could not recover.
So a basic battle with an illusionist would begin the fight by setting up a decoy to distract the enemy's initial attention, put up mirror image, imaginary armor, false life, and deflect elements, and then begin to stack imaginary wounds on the enemies, rotating through as needed. Then simply watch your allies and cast things like ghost image, invisibility, and terrifying visage to protect allies from taking too much damage.
Also, if you wanted this character to be a hybrid of a damage class and a tank, you could set up a condition where for each self-buff the illusionist is maintaining, it decreases his/her damage output (but not threat.) This way, an illusionist could still fill the damage roll in a party but could tank if needed.
I'm sure there are many more interesting ways for an illusionist to tank, but I'm just having fun brainstorming :D
The best type of caster I've thought of for this would be an illusionist who would be able to use a combination of evasion, control, and temporary hit points to tank for the group.
A few abilities could be something like setting up a decoy that draws attention and absorbs attacks. Mirror Image on him/herself that would cause the next few physical attacks to miss. Imaginary armor would absorb incoming damage until it shattered. Deflect elements could set up a shell of light that would reduce incoming magic damage and False Life would temporarily increase his maximum hit points.
The illusionist could also distract enemies with ghost images that would keep them off allies. They could also render an ally invisible to completely shut down an enemy who is targeting that ally. Another party protection spell could be something like terrifying visage that temporarily gives an ally a frightening look that would decrease their threat against enemies. Also, using a clone spell could transfer some threat from an ally to the illusionist.
For causing damage, I've always liked the idea that an illusionist could stack up imaginary wounds on a target that cause periodic damage. This ability could stack a few times on each target but if allowed to drop off, the enemy would begin to regain some of the lost health because he/she/it would begin to see through the illusion. The illusionist could also fire off some sort of pain spike ability that would cause damage that scales with the number of stacks of wounds and would end the effect so that they could not recover.
So a basic battle with an illusionist would begin the fight by setting up a decoy to distract the enemy's initial attention, put up mirror image, imaginary armor, false life, and deflect elements, and then begin to stack imaginary wounds on the enemies, rotating through as needed. Then simply watch your allies and cast things like ghost image, invisibility, and terrifying visage to protect allies from taking too much damage.
Also, if you wanted this character to be a hybrid of a damage class and a tank, you could set up a condition where for each self-buff the illusionist is maintaining, it decreases his/her damage output (but not threat.) This way, an illusionist could still fill the damage roll in a party but could tank if needed.
I'm sure there are many more interesting ways for an illusionist to tank, but I'm just having fun brainstorming :D
ashriot
222
If that's what they do, then sure. But, I like the idea of a squishy caster being able to take on the tanking role!
And I was just brainstorming and coming up with ideas I wasn't trying to come up with things not in EO3 XD
Though I do want to try EO3 now... might have to find myself a copy!
And I was just brainstorming and coming up with ideas I wasn't trying to come up with things not in EO3 XD
Though I do want to try EO3 now... might have to find myself a copy!
author=Craze
Whoever said that 90% of RPGs don't have "pick who gets attacked" in any form:
-All FFs, most prominent in FFI (DQ-style), FFIV (forced rows) and FFXIII (provoke as Protector)
-All DQs (first two slots take brunt of hits, third takes fewer and fourth takes even fewer
-Etrian Odyssey series (forced rows + branching tanks (EO3 is the best))
-Any game with a 2D playing field (wRPGs; Torment, Baldur's Gate, etc. allow positioning - not 2D as in Tales of)
Pretty sure that's at least 10%, especially since everything else is a derivative of these games. =D (Well, reverse derivative in EO's case, but EO2/3 are actually playable (get EO3)).
Yo!
True true. All of the FFs add it in some form (Cover in FF7 was great). although I've only played DW3 so I wouldn't know. I also forgot about "Row" tanking, which has been around since the SNES as well (or earlier) - Obviously RM2k3 had this as well, even if it was poorly explained. I was thinking of stuff like Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG and Earthbound.
That being said, a lot of these RPGs have random-based "tanking" - ex. putting someone in the first slot only increases the chance that he is hit - so it boils down to "put big guy in front, swap him out if he gets really low" which is, in my humble opinion, a lackluster mechanic.
Active tanking has so much more potential. If you can guarantee that the next attack is going to land on a certain character with a "Provoke" skill, all of a sudden you have an amazing game dynamic. You can queue up a heal, put him in "counterattack mode", give him some +DEF buffs, or whatever your game may allow, and watch your strategy unfold. Rather than hoping the hit goes where you want it to based on the luck of the dice, you can plan a whole battle strategy with proactive tanking. This is a mechanic MMORPGs like WoW have already embraced to great effect. I'm sure someone will make an RPG with a mechanic like this and it will lead to amazing fun battles.
Unpredictability leads to scary enemy AI ("please please don't attack my 3 HP mage") and non-tank-based targeting should be kept in games (especially with smaller parties) to keep the pressure on the player, but seeing some more active tank possibilities would be great. AOE attacks also help put pressure on the whole party, so it's not just the tank's HP that matters.
(This is going to devolve into a rant about RNG, so I think I'm just gonna make a topic about that)
(Hell, what about a system where every character in the party has the opportunity to use "Taunt" command, but it can only be used once every three turns? Random targeting, but the possibility to save a dying member from one fatal attack)
Zephyr
1241
Ar tonlico has an interesting approach in the overall battle mechanics. The battle consists of two lines.
The vanguard and the magic caster. The magic caster is very weak physically, so the vanguard line must hold away enemy attacks. Sometimes the enemy can charge a piercing attack that you must set up even fiercer defence to counter. So practically all melee-fighters serve as pummel bags.
Ar tonelico II is quite similar, but each magic caster is assigned a vanguard. To block attacks, you must press block button with timing precision. The better timed, the less damage is dealt.
The vanguard and the magic caster. The magic caster is very weak physically, so the vanguard line must hold away enemy attacks. Sometimes the enemy can charge a piercing attack that you must set up even fiercer defence to counter. So practically all melee-fighters serve as pummel bags.
Ar tonelico II is quite similar, but each magic caster is assigned a vanguard. To block attacks, you must press block button with timing precision. The better timed, the less damage is dealt.
