WHAT IS THE BIGGEST DESIGN FLAW IN GAMES?
Posts
author=GreatRedSpirit
More games need a room at the end of the giant confusing final dungeon (only accessible via another dungeon and traveling in a monster littered area of the world filled with poison swamps, random damaging earthquakes, and having to traverse damaging ocean) where you are outnumbered three to one with some of the most dangerous enemies in the game divided by a forcefield where your side of the room gets filled with lava after one turn
lmfao
author=Fallen-Griever
You don't give them the whole game on easy mode, you give them the first few levels and then throw out a fake/bad ending (hence the SoR reference), meaning they still have extra content to unlock/be rewarded with in normal mode!
It's all about application...
Hey all. Sorry if I'm late to the party but I thought I'd chip in.
On a fundamental level, I disagree with this design pattern (Which with use cases like Halo 3, still sees some use in the modern generation). The idea of a game that requires the player to beat it on it's most taxing difficultly to get the end is seen as somewhat disrespectful these days of the time and energy a player can actually spend on any given title. If they've selected it on easy, it often means they want to experience all of the content without the frustration of repeated failure, and playing it on the easy setting lets them do that. Taking away content from the easier settings does not 1:1 end up with the player trying it again on a harder setting. Development now more than ever, feels like an environment where "Oh, you just aren't good enough to get the real ending" is just not an acceptable practice, and it may drive people away from your game.
I feel games should move away from this level of negative reinforcement, and more into building fun, exciting ways to increase the game difficulty. Look at Super Meat Boy. Now look at those band-aids. Now look at that Hell World. Most of it is totally optional for the standard player, but exists to create the same kind of challenge for hardcore gamers without any sort of alienation.
Now, I'm totally for unlockables only available in the harder difficulty setting, because there you can throw something to tease the hardcore gamer into challenging your most brutal mode, without sacrificing the ability for Easy-mode players, be it skill, time, or interest that keeps them from doing so themselves.
author=Fallen-GrieverI can understand the "secret ending" if you finish the game on a harder difficulty but not allowing the player to play the whole game just because it's too difficult is generally considered bad practice these days.
You don't give them the whole game on easy mode, you give them the first few levels and then throw out a fake/bad ending (hence the SoR reference), meaning they still have extra content to unlock/be rewarded with in normal mode!
It's all about application...
I guess there's a few places it's acceptable (very short games where maybe each difficulty level means basically a completely new game for example). But generally if someone paid for a game they don't want to be told by the game that they suck just because they didn't play the game on the hardest difficulty level. (this also goes hand in hand with being able to change the difficulty mid-game if it turned out too difficulty/too easy)
And with Youtube they'll probably look at it online and then get pissed that the game left out shit for them and never buy a game from that developer again. (if they're that informed)
EDIT: Qetzl probably said it better.
You can disallow the player to beat the game at the lowest difficulty, but you can also let people beat a game in whatever difficulty they choose. I do not see the benefit of locking people out of major parts of the game unless they play at a certain minimum difficulty. It does however make sense to create challenges that cannot be beaten unless you have the skill needed to beat them.
You mentioned encouraging the player at getting better at the game. However, locking out major content of the game sounds more like demanding than encouraging to me. Sure, I don't have to experience the whole content, but if it's a game I bought it means I get less content for my money and also that it's less likely I buy more games made from the same company.
There are several games I've beaten and then replayed on a higher difficulty. Other games I didn't feel were good enough for me to play a second time, or I did play it a second time, but not until years have passed. If those other games would have held content hostage unless I play a higher difficulty than I originally choose, it would not have meant I suddenly find them more fun. Rather, I would have to choose between continue playing the game despite getting a bit tired of it or abandoning the playtrough.
If someone wants to encourage me to get better at his/her game, then make the game fun enough for me to play multiple times. Also make getting better fun. For example, increasing the offensive capabilities of enemies in higher difficulty levels is usually a better idea than increasing their defensive capabilities since the latter often means fights just take longer.
Finally, let's say that a player plays trough a game five times in a row and selects the easiest difficulty all the time. Why care? Even if I work my way towards the hardest difficulty level, it doesn't matter if someone else just keeps playing the easiest difficulty level over and over. Why bother to encourage players who aren't interested at getting better to get better?
You mentioned encouraging the player at getting better at the game. However, locking out major content of the game sounds more like demanding than encouraging to me. Sure, I don't have to experience the whole content, but if it's a game I bought it means I get less content for my money and also that it's less likely I buy more games made from the same company.
There are several games I've beaten and then replayed on a higher difficulty. Other games I didn't feel were good enough for me to play a second time, or I did play it a second time, but not until years have passed. If those other games would have held content hostage unless I play a higher difficulty than I originally choose, it would not have meant I suddenly find them more fun. Rather, I would have to choose between continue playing the game despite getting a bit tired of it or abandoning the playtrough.
If someone wants to encourage me to get better at his/her game, then make the game fun enough for me to play multiple times. Also make getting better fun. For example, increasing the offensive capabilities of enemies in higher difficulty levels is usually a better idea than increasing their defensive capabilities since the latter often means fights just take longer.
Finally, let's say that a player plays trough a game five times in a row and selects the easiest difficulty all the time. Why care? Even if I work my way towards the hardest difficulty level, it doesn't matter if someone else just keeps playing the easiest difficulty level over and over. Why bother to encourage players who aren't interested at getting better to get better?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
A lot of people would argue the opposite - that the only reason to play on a harder difficulty is if there are better rewards, and the only reward good enough for playing through the entire game on a higher difficulty is extra content. People enjoy taking risks in games if there is some potential benefit. If you don't get a better ending or more game or anything at all, then many of them just won't see the point. To them, increasing the difficulty is equivalent to throwing away the new armor you just got. Wearing the armor makes you stronger, it improves how well you play, therefore you should do it. Same thing for lowering the difficulty.
Not all people think this way. Some people are achievement whores, some people enjoy doing things they've mastered, some people enjoy trying to become a better player, some people like to cheat, and some people beat a NMNINEQNLBSCCNAMBLAWYSIWYG challenge of FF7 in 7 hours 38 minutes, but are aiming for 7 hours 20 minutes next time. You can't please them all.
Not all people think this way. Some people are achievement whores, some people enjoy doing things they've mastered, some people enjoy trying to become a better player, some people like to cheat, and some people beat a NMNINEQNLBSCCNAMBLAWYSIWYG challenge of FF7 in 7 hours 38 minutes, but are aiming for 7 hours 20 minutes next time. You can't please them all.
author=LockeZ
A lot of people would argue the opposite - that the only reason to play on a harder difficulty is if there are better rewards, and the only reward good enough for playing through the entire game on a higher difficulty is extra content. People enjoy taking risks in games if there is some potential benefit. If you don't get a better ending or more game or anything at all, then many of them just won't see the point. To them, increasing the difficulty is equivalent to throwing away the new armor you just got. Wearing the armor makes you stronger, it improves how well you play, therefore you should do it. Same thing for lowering the difficulty.
Not all people think this way. Some people are achievement whores, some people enjoy doing things they've mastered, some people enjoy trying to become a better player, some people like to cheat, and some people beat a NMNINEQNLBSCCNAMBLAWYSIWYG challenge of FF7 in 7 hours 38 minutes, but are aiming for 7 hours 20 minutes next time. You can't please them all.
If to them increasing the difficulty is the equivalent of throwing away the armor, then they would benefit from getting the full reward from playing at any difficulty. That way they can both keep the armor and get the full reward anyway. But yes, some people do want to play a harder difficulty, but they also want the game to provide a reason for it.
While you can't please everyone, I still think you should pay attention to who you are encouraging to do what. It's not a healthy practice to encourage a child who's very interested in machines and want to work with them when he grows up, to instead become a lawyer. Cutting out major content in order to encourage improvement does seem to me like the equivalent of encouraging every child, regardless of interest, to become a lawyer. It's an unfocused measure that's likely to do a lot of harm compared to the amount of good.
Another example is if you give the player a sad ending on easier difficulties and a happy ending on hard difficulties. Some players like happy endings, some sad and some like variance. However, there is no known correlation between people who wants to play on harder difficulties and people who like happy endings, so you're now again encouraging the wrong people to play the harder difficulty.
I think achievements and other bragging rights enhancers works better. Players who just play a game once and then puts it away is less likely to care about such things. Most people also don't think you get any bragging rights unless you have something to brag about to begin with, therefore it's safer to deny them bragging rights than major content of the game.
There's no perfect way to encourage people to become better, but I think it's better to stick to measures that have a correlation between those it encourages to become better and those who even are interested at becoming better, even if that correlation won't be 100%.
A big design flaw in some RPGs is, it seems as if the game is built for the enemies rather than the player. I'm all for difficult enemies/bosses, but when they're just cheap it makes me wonder how the devs could've thought it was possibly a good idea?
The worst thing is when enemies can spam full party sleep, paralyze or what have you. *Paralyze, attack, paralyze, attack* Oh, I'm dead! Never got to pull off a single attack or spell. Awesome! Accessories to block against it? Not obtainable yet!
Then you have to grind a lot, which is fine, but even then you still have to hope that 95% chance to hit paralyze move misses atleast one character so you can do SOMETHING.
The worst thing is when enemies can spam full party sleep, paralyze or what have you. *Paralyze, attack, paralyze, attack* Oh, I'm dead! Never got to pull off a single attack or spell. Awesome! Accessories to block against it? Not obtainable yet!
Then you have to grind a lot, which is fine, but even then you still have to hope that 95% chance to hit paralyze move misses atleast one character so you can do SOMETHING.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=WolfCoder
Can't recall an RPG that was like that.
Clearly you've never played any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. They have a tendency to do that. They also tend to give lots of enemies instant death spells, which, combined with the fact that main character death = game over, is not fun. Sometimes enemies even have area instant death spells!
I definitely agree that if you get a game over, it should be because you did something wrong or made a bad choice. There should be some way to avoid losing.
Defense (the action not the stat). So many games has defense being ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS. Think about it, when you play RPGs, you smack on the enemy as hard as possible until you get hit, in which you would cast a healing spell or pop a potion. For my games, I make defense actually OP. Is it a bad idea? Maybe, but its better than it being bum-fucking-worthless.
author=Necrile
Defense (the action not the stat). So many games has defense being ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS. Think about it, when you play RPGs, you smack on the enemy as hard as possible until you get hit, in which you would cast a healing spell or pop a potion. For my games, I make defense actually OP. Is it a bad idea? Maybe, but its better than it being bum-fucking-worthless.
I agree, actually. So many times I'll get some new armor, increase my defense by about 150 points, and the damage I take goes down by 1-10 points. When enemies are dealing thousands, what's the point? Oh, okay. Instead of 3,000 I now take 2,990.
Once again, I'm talking about the defense ACTION, not the stat. As in, attack, skill, defend, and item.
Lol. Funny thing is, I even read that part, but my brain ignored it.
Edit: Defense is mostly pointless because it gets you nowhere. Maybe if defense caused you to counter when attacked it would have a point.
Edit: Defense is mostly pointless because it gets you nowhere. Maybe if defense caused you to counter when attacked it would have a point.
What I'm trying to say is that most games give you so many healing items that it is actually worthless. And even if they don't, its generally a better idea just to beat on the creature you are fighting. I think defense should take away close to (if not all) the damage that you would normally receive while defending, and then have certain creatures that can break defense, much like in Assassins Creed.
That could be useful, but there needs to be a better way to know when to use it. Often we don't need to bother defending against normal attacks, but usually there's no warning for special attacks. Games seem to have done away with casting times.
Everything is instant now so actually getting a defend in before a fatal attack is all luck now. Games like Final Fantasy IV, where spells and such took time to cast instead of click-boom, would actually work, or bosses would often show signs of what they're about to do.
Everything is instant now so actually getting a defend in before a fatal attack is all luck now. Games like Final Fantasy IV, where spells and such took time to cast instead of click-boom, would actually work, or bosses would often show signs of what they're about to do.
I agree. I would actually like to see games incorporate defend AND evade, where evade would cost energy or mana or whatever, but could avoid anyone of those kind of super attacks. I wouldn't even mind one hit ko skills, as long as they were avoidable with a little bit of skill.
author=Fallen-GrieverThis makes kind of sense now that I think about it. Why reward the player for beating the game on easy anyways. They should suffer like everybody else and try to beat the game in the normal difficulty.
You don't give them the whole game on easy mode, you give them the first few levels and then throw out a fake/bad ending (hence the SoR reference), meaning they still have extra content to unlock/be rewarded with in normal mode!
It's all about application...
I know this was said a lot of times, but I think the biggest flaw in design is making cutscenes that are over 30 minutes long for apparently no reason. It is cool to see cutscenes when finishing a level to reward the player but I don't want to see a movie just because of that. In fact I prefer interactive cutscene where at least you control the player to some extent. Fable 2 and 3 did that, even though it was kinda limited.




















