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TURN-BASED...DEAD?
Posts
Ginseng_Tea
51
Ginseng_Tea
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Closeauthor=ShinanHaha.author=Ginseng_TeaI guess you'd have to ask the Final Fantasy fanbase about that. But considering the things I know about the fanbase they could release a literal turd in a game case and it would sell. (and they've certainly done so already... okay not a literal turd but pretty close)author=ShinanNiche - That word's been thrown about in our discussion too.
Turn based RPGS are sort of a niche nowadays. And since RPGs also are sort of a niche nowadays it is a case of a niche within a niche. RPGs generally go toward a more action-based style these days ("real time with pause" see the latest version of this in Oblivion With Guns and Mass Effect).
But within the niche (and the indie market especially) there's still the occasional turn-based development. Age of Decadence and Dead State are two indie RPGs that will have a purely turn-based system for example.
So like many subgenres they're not really dead and obsolete. They just aren't in the main spotlight.
Do you think a Final Fantasy 14 with a turn-based system would be a big mistake?
Would you yourself play it if it were turn-based? (Sans overall crappiness Ex. Fatigue System)
Would that not help it stand out from the crowd, without alienating old fans?
WolfCoder
3554
author=Ginseng_Teaauthor=WolfCoderI resent that. It used to be an enjoyable game before it fell victim to the Cash Shop syndrome.
Yeah but Fairyland is a really shitty Chinese MMORPG that isn't worth it even though it's a free to play game.Dream of Mirror Online is the best I've seen games from China go and that's actually a fun MMO with the whole class system.
I don't think so. You had like six characters to choose from and all you could do was palette swap them, character customization was nonexistent. Moving around was clunky to do and it really was Mash the SpaceBar Online... Although I don't think you entered commands with space, it was something else.
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=WolfCoderYou had to mash left-click. xDauthor=Ginseng_TeaI don't think so. You had like six characters to choose from, character customization was nonexistent. Moving around was clunky to do and it really was Mash the SpaceBar Online... Although I don't think you entered commands with space, it was something else.author=WolfCoderI resent that. It used to be an enjoyable game before it fell victim to the Cash Shop syndrome.
Yeah but Fairyland is a really shitty Chinese MMORPG that isn't worth it even though it's a free to play game.Dream of Mirror Online is the best I've seen games from China go and that's actually a fun MMO with the whole class system.
To each their own.
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=WolfCoderTo each their own.Some people prefer coffee, some people prefer filtered mud.
I'm a coffee person, myself. What about you?
but I digress!
Shinan
4314
author=Ginseng_Tea
Would you yourself play it if it were turn-based? (Sans overall crappiness Ex. Fatigue System)
Would that not help it stand out from the crowd, without alienating old fans?
I would not play it. But that's because I don't play MMOs and I don't play Final Fantasy either. So there's really no reasonable reason for me to play it.
prexus
309
Final Fantasy 14 is a big mistake regardless of what system you put into it. Although I assume you meant to talk about FF15, since FF14 is an MMO.
Turn based systems work if the goal is for the players to think about every move they make, as if it were their last. In a situation where effects aren't random at all, turn based combat almost becomes puzzle combat.
Every type of system has its place. An MMO does not benefit from turn based play. Can you imagine a late game encounter, 40 players taking on one big boss, having to wait for each person to take their turn?
EDIT: ToonTown by Disney Interactive is just about the only successful turn based MMO I know of, and the combat worked because it limited your party to three or four, and it was more about the hilarious animations than difficulty.
Turn based systems work if the goal is for the players to think about every move they make, as if it were their last. In a situation where effects aren't random at all, turn based combat almost becomes puzzle combat.
Every type of system has its place. An MMO does not benefit from turn based play. Can you imagine a late game encounter, 40 players taking on one big boss, having to wait for each person to take their turn?
EDIT: ToonTown by Disney Interactive is just about the only successful turn based MMO I know of, and the combat worked because it limited your party to three or four, and it was more about the hilarious animations than difficulty.
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=prexusThe stigma attached to the name is a whole new can of worms.
Final Fantasy 14 is a big mistake regardless of what system you put into it. Although I assume you meant to talk about FF15, since FF14 is an MMO.
I'm speaking of FF14 as if it were to exist in an alternate universe where it was indeed turn-based and did not suck in all the other ways.
author=prexusYes indeed!
Turn based systems work if the goal is for the players to think about every move they make, as if it were their last. In a situation where effects aren't random at all, turn based combat almost becomes puzzle combat.
author=prexusEndgame content doesn't have to include a ridiculously large number of players. I've always found WoW's epic boss battles to be ridiculous as it's not test of individual strength, but a test in levels and headcount. A difficult endgame boss battle with, say, ten people is viable.
Every type of system has its place. An MMO does not benefit from turn based play. Can you imagine a late game encounter, 40 players taking on one big boss, having to wait for each person to take their turn?
Mabinogi has a limited number of people that can enter a dungeon. This really forces you and your friends to put your heads together to defeat a big boss. This was also done to a decent effect in Fairyland. (5 people, 5 pet limit, if I remember correctly)
At any rate, 40 people turn-based can work seamlessly. The animation may be hectic, but if you follow this process:
-Players/Enemies choose attacks. There is a time limit which becomes shorter as more player/enemies are ready and have made their moves.
-Players and enemies begin the attacking phase. Players with higher agility go first and so forth. If done correctly, everybody would be done with their attacks easily in less than 3 seconds. (Like in Fairyland)
This model shortens downtime like nobody's business, and offers a reasonable amount of turnbasedness. The issue that persists with such large numbers is the inability to predict the outcome each turn. In a 40x40 setup, could you imagine having to guess who would be spiked to death next? Now that I think about it, an action-based MMORPG faces the same issue in its own way.
Also, an MMORPG can easily utilize the ATB style. (Although Squeenix owns ATB, I heard)
Aside: An earlier post in this thread suggested that AGILITY is the most important stat in a turn-based game. It's nothing that can't be tweaked. Also, by pumping AGI to get that first turn, you do miss out on more important stats. So, I don't believe it to be much more imbalanced than AGI or SPEED in most other games. In a more action-based model, speed may directly affect your DPS and also take you out of battle just as things get hairy.
author=prexusI wasn't aware of this game. Yet another one to add to the list.
EDIT: ToonTown by Disney Interactive is just about the only successful turn based MMO I know of, and the combat worked because it limited your party to three or four, and it was more about the hilarious animations than difficulty.
author=WolfCoderlol
I thought you were a Ginseng Tea person o.o"
it can be done well
Turn-based is boring because Firaga/Curaga/Omnislash does not an interesting battle setup make. SMT is okay, but ultimately stabs itself in the face because it kills its meaningful Firaga/Cura with Megido/Diaharan.
Have you guys ever played Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant? It adds Sanity to the mix, as well as customizable spell lists and unique commands for everybody. It was great fun, even if we pretend the second disk doesn't exist. It was CTB and not pure turn-based, but still - not real-time.
Etrian Odyssey 3 is better than you. Check it out. "W-what," you say, "you use Guard Order/Reinforce in normal battles? You set up parties with elemental weapons, attacks and enchants to work with Buccaneers' Chase skills? You have ninjas counter every move the enemy makes with Otori/Makibishi?"
I don't know about y'all, but I'm pretty sick of Firaga. Let's see some Fire Prophecy or Fire Dancer up in this hellhole.
Oh, and have none of you played Diablocide? I might not have ever finished it, but...
Make a pledge with me.
DO NOT SUPPORT FIRAGA.
Turn-based is boring because Firaga/Curaga/Omnislash does not an interesting battle setup make. SMT is okay, but ultimately stabs itself in the face because it kills its meaningful Firaga/Cura with Megido/Diaharan.
Have you guys ever played Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant? It adds Sanity to the mix, as well as customizable spell lists and unique commands for everybody. It was great fun, even if we pretend the second disk doesn't exist. It was CTB and not pure turn-based, but still - not real-time.
Etrian Odyssey 3 is better than you. Check it out. "W-what," you say, "you use Guard Order/Reinforce in normal battles? You set up parties with elemental weapons, attacks and enchants to work with Buccaneers' Chase skills? You have ninjas counter every move the enemy makes with Otori/Makibishi?"
I don't know about y'all, but I'm pretty sick of Firaga. Let's see some Fire Prophecy or Fire Dancer up in this hellhole.
Oh, and have none of you played Diablocide? I might not have ever finished it, but...
Make a pledge with me.
DO NOT SUPPORT FIRAGA.
Actually, Megido/Diarahan doesn't 'kill' any meaningful strategies in SMT. Both of these spells usually carry massive MP costs, and MP is one of the scarcest resources in any SMT game. Not to mention that Megido does actually less damage than most other elements, and is simply "nonelemental." Plus Diarahan, if you overwrite any other healing spell with it, can be horribly inefficient - you have to wait until your characters are at seriously low health or expending the MP on it is a waste.
These are all give-and-take that you factor into your typical battle strategy.
Also yes Craze we get it, you are a talented designer with your thumb on the pulse of battle mechanics, you don't need to plug yourself to make the point
These are all give-and-take that you factor into your typical battle strategy.
Also yes Craze we get it, you are a talented designer with your thumb on the pulse of battle mechanics, you don't need to plug yourself to make the point
prexus
309
author=Ginseng_Teaauthor=prexusEndgame content doesn't have to include a ridiculously large number of players. I've always found WoW's epic boss battles to be ridiculous as it's not test of individual strength, but a test in levels and headcount. A difficult endgame boss battle with, say, ten people is viable.
Every type of system has its place. An MMO does not benefit from turn based play. Can you imagine a late game encounter, 40 players taking on one big boss, having to wait for each person to take their turn?
Mabinogi has a limited number of people that can enter a dungeon. This really forces you and your friends to put your heads together to defeat a big boss. This was also done to a decent effect in Fairyland. (5 people, 5 pet limit, if I remember correctly)
At any rate, 40 people turn-based can work seamlessly. The animation may be hectic, but if you follow this process:
-Players/Enemies choose attacks. There is a time limit which becomes shorter as more player/enemies are ready and have made their moves.
-Players and enemies begin the attacking phase. Players with higher agility go first and so forth. If done correctly, everybody would be done with their attacks easily in less than 3 seconds. (Like in Fairyland)
This model shortens downtime like nobody's business, and offers a reasonable amount of turnbasedness. The issue that persists with such large numbers is the inability to predict the outcome each turn. In a 40x40 setup, could you imagine having to guess who would be spiked to death next? Now that I think about it, an action-based MMORPG faces the same issue in its own way.
Also, an MMORPG can easily utilize the ATB style. (Although Squeenix owns ATB, I heard)
Aside: An earlier post in this thread suggested that AGILITY is the most important stat in a turn-based game. It's nothing that can't be tweaked. Also, by pumping AGI to get that first turn, you do miss out on more important stats. So, I don't believe it to be much more imbalanced than AGI or SPEED in most other games. In a more action-based model, speed may directly affect your DPS and also take you out of battle just as things get hairy.
WoW has user restrictions for end-game content as well. They balance the fights around you having the maximum number of people there at maximum level. (10 and 25 players respectively)
Yes, if you balance the fights around 3-4 people, turn based can work. But then it isn't really MMO, is it? It's more like, Some Multiplayer Online.
author=Versalia
Actually, Megido/Diarahan doesn't 'kill' any meaningful strategies in SMT. Both of these spells usually carry massive MP costs, and MP is one of the scarcest resources in any SMT game. Not to mention that Megido does actually less damage than most other elements, and is simply "nonelemental." Plus Diarahan, if you overwrite any other healing spell with it, can be horribly inefficient - you have to wait until your characters are at seriously low health or expending the MP on it is a waste.
These are all give-and-take that you factor into your typical battle strategy.
Also yes Craze we get it, you are a talented designer with your thumb on the pulse of battle mechanics, you don't need to plug yourself to make the point
Tell that to SMT bosses past the 60-70% mark.
Also, Karsuman designs the characters and the battle system is based on ideas he lifted from an indie XBox Live game (Breath of Death).
author=Craze
Also, Karsuman designs the characters and the battle system is based on ideas he lifted from an indie XBox Live game (Breath of Death).
Why can't you just take credit and let my jealousy slowly crush my soul
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=prexusYou make a good point. A game like Mabinogi is still massively multiplayer even with an 8-person cap on dungeons, though.
WoW has user restrictions for end-game content as well. They balance the fights around you having the maximum number of people there at maximum level. (10 and 25 players respectively)
Yes, if you balance the fights around 3-4 people, turn based can work. But then it isn't really MMO, is it? It's more like, Some Multiplayer Online.
Outside of raids (or PVP), there's hardly any need for more than ten people. Massively multiplayer is moreso defined by the number of people in the persistent game world, whether they are in your active party of not.
Also, it is possible to have upwards of ten people in a turn-based game. It's been done. See Atlantica.
mellytan
995
author=Craze
Have you guys ever played Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant? It adds Sanity to the mix, as well as customizable spell lists and unique commands for everybody. It was great fun, even if we pretend the second disk doesn't exist. It was CTB and not pure turn-based, but still - not real-time.
Agreed; the addition of the Judgment Ring mini-minigame to each turn also helped make battles oddly compelling. Similarly, Legend of Dragoon has Additions in place of a normal attack, which require different timed button presses for each Addition (and most characters have several, with different rhythms and timing, etc).
So I would say making the player perform some sort of action that makes them be at least a little alert each turn is an easy way to make a turn-based battle system a little less boring.
