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TURN-BASED...DEAD?
Posts
Ginseng_Tea
51
Ginseng_Tea
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CloseToday, I asked my peers why is it that Final Fantasy XIV(14) did not utilize a turn-based system to resemble Final Fantasy's "golden age".
I got the response: "They are not that big of idiots!"
Sometime, while I was wasting away in the world of classic RPG's, the world decided that turn-based is dead and obsolete - so much so that an MMORPG with this battle system is hard to come by or 'stupid'.
I remember a time when the turn-based system was nearly the essence of an RPG.
Can we please discuss this?
I value your input and opinion.
I got the response: "They are not that big of idiots!"
Sometime, while I was wasting away in the world of classic RPG's, the world decided that turn-based is dead and obsolete - so much so that an MMORPG with this battle system is hard to come by or 'stupid'.
I remember a time when the turn-based system was nearly the essence of an RPG.
Can we please discuss this?
I value your input and opinion.
WolfCoder
3554
I say good riddance.
Alright, but Fire Emblem still rocked. Still, I get bored easily if it's not a tactical RPG.
Take my response with consideration, if it's not EXTREMELY FULL OF ON THE EGDE OF YOUR SEAT ACTION I feel any battle system could be more furious. I'm obsessed with action in games.
Alright, but Fire Emblem still rocked. Still, I get bored easily if it's not a tactical RPG.
Take my response with consideration, if it's not EXTREMELY FULL OF ON THE EGDE OF YOUR SEAT ACTION I feel any battle system could be more furious. I'm obsessed with action in games.
FF14 is a bomb. Turn based is a lot more fun and strategic when you control a party instead of a single member in a party.
Natook
1000
Strategy is essential for fun when it comes to turn based, whether it's SRPG or Traditional style. When you mash A to get through turn based, then they might as well remove the turn based aspect entirely. If Squenix isn't willing to develop a new way to be strategical in turn based styled games, then recycling the same crap with slightly less turn styled gameplay to give the taste of an action game with commands makes sense. Essentially, it's easier to do than to recreate turn based to be fun again.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well, in MMORPGs, turn-based combat is obviously totally impossible. What, would you have to wait for every single player in the world to input their command for that round before you perform your attack?
But I dunno where you're getting your stats from. Turn-based RPGs fill the market. There was a time when they were out of style, but the Dragon Quest series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Etrian Odyssey series, 100% of all tactical RPGs, and plenty more are all turn-based. FF13 is the only recent Japanese RPG I can think of that uses an ATB system. Though Western RPGs have admittedly continued using the same real-time system they've been using since... Baldur's Gate.
But I dunno where you're getting your stats from. Turn-based RPGs fill the market. There was a time when they were out of style, but the Dragon Quest series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Etrian Odyssey series, 100% of all tactical RPGs, and plenty more are all turn-based. FF13 is the only recent Japanese RPG I can think of that uses an ATB system. Though Western RPGs have admittedly continued using the same real-time system they've been using since... Baldur's Gate.
mellytan
995
author=LockeZ
Well, in MMORPGs, turn-based combat is obviously totally impossible. What, would you have to wait for every single player in the world to input their command for that round before you perform your attack?
But though the actions are carried out in "real time," there are MMORPGs where two sides take turns executing a certain command given by the player(s) continuously until a) the player changes the command, or b) someone dies, right? It's basically the same thing in terms of the boringness factor, I think.
author=LockeZ
But I dunno where you're getting your stats from. Turn-based RPGs fill the market. There was a time when they were out of style, but the Dragon Quest series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Etrian Odyssey series, 100% of all tactical RPGs, and plenty more are all turn-based. FF13 is the only recent Japanese RPG I can think of that uses an ATB system. Though Western RPGs have admittedly continued using the same real-time system they've been using since... Baldur's Gate.
This. Turn-based RPGs as a genre will die when (Japanese) people stop buying turn-based RPGs. And I doubt that will happen within our lifetimes; many franchises in Japan thrive off of the bittersweet nostalgia people feel for ye olde battle systems. Case in point: the Dragon Quest series.
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=WolfCoderI understand. Personally, I've been playing FPS more than RPG's lately.
I say good riddance.
Alright, but Fire Emblem still rocked. Still, I get bored easily if it's not a tactical RPG.
Take my response with consideration, if it's not EXTREMELY FULL OF ON THE EGDE OF YOUR SEAT ACTION I feel any battle system could be more furious. I'm obsessed with action in games.
author=ShortStarA title like Fairyland allowed you to control both your character and a pet. It's certainly different not controlling all your allies, but it does encourage teamwork and communication.
FF14 is a bomb. Turn based is a lot more fun and strategic when you control a party instead of a single member in a party.
author=NatookPersonally, I believe Square Enix adopted a more 'action' battle system for Final Fantasy 11 because of already established ideas of what an MMORPG should be. From a marketing perspective, I can understand why most MMORPGs tend to have the same playstyle... and dare I say Final Fantasy 11 pulled it off sweetly(IMO).
Strategy is essential for fun when it comes to turn based, whether it's SRPG or Traditional style. When you mash A to get through turn based, then they might as well remove the turn based aspect entirely. If Squenix isn't willing to develop a new way to be strategical in turn based styled games, then recycling the same crap with slightly less turn styled gameplay to give the taste of an action game with commands makes sense. Essentially, it's easier to do than to recreate turn based to be fun again.
author=LockeZFairyland and Atlantica are two turn-based MMORPG's. It is possible. Each battle is an instance that exists outside of the 'map'.
Well, in MMORPGs, turn-based combat is obviously totally impossible. What, would you have to wait for every single player in the world to input their command for that round before you perform your attack?
author=LockeZI am reassured. :']
But I dunno where you're getting your stats from. Turn-based RPGs fill the market. There was a time when they were out of style, but the Dragon Quest series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the Etrian Odyssey series, 100% of all tactical RPGs, and plenty more are all turn-based. FF13 is the only recent Japanese RPG I can think of that uses an ATB system. Though Western RPGs have admittedly continued using the same real-time system they've been using since... Baldur's Gate.
My concern is the lack of them in MMORPG's and the overall attitude toward the very notion. The 'turn based is out-of-date' argument leads me to believe that my friends consider it dead. It's not an opinion I hold myself. I am an RM fiend, after all.
Yoshio
774
i might actually be able to tolerate a turn based mmorpg
an inability to press the dang spell buttons and then select my target quickly enough is my biggest beef with them
there is no point in having real time controls if it's just going to be clunky and boring, but that is just my usual feelings when i am fighting in a mmo
an inability to press the dang spell buttons and then select my target quickly enough is my biggest beef with them
there is no point in having real time controls if it's just going to be clunky and boring, but that is just my usual feelings when i am fighting in a mmo
I'm perfectly fine with Turn-based RPGs. I personally like being able to have the time to plan out my moves without feeling rushed. It's like playing a game of chess for me.
As LockeZ stated, turn-based RPGs aren't necessarily "dead". They may not be as popular as they used to (especially with younger audiences), but they are not dead. Dragon Quest and Pokemon are prime examples, here.
As for the system itself, it really needs to incorporate the strategy element in order to be fun. If you are just mashing the attack button for every battle, of course it gets boring. It's that same aspect that annoys me about most of the RPG Maker games on this site and others, no offense to those who have done this (even I'm guilty of it). As stated earlier, there is no point in including the system if the only strategy is to just mash the "A" button.
As LockeZ stated, turn-based RPGs aren't necessarily "dead". They may not be as popular as they used to (especially with younger audiences), but they are not dead. Dragon Quest and Pokemon are prime examples, here.
As for the system itself, it really needs to incorporate the strategy element in order to be fun. If you are just mashing the attack button for every battle, of course it gets boring. It's that same aspect that annoys me about most of the RPG Maker games on this site and others, no offense to those who have done this (even I'm guilty of it). As stated earlier, there is no point in including the system if the only strategy is to just mash the "A" button.
eplipswich
2728
author=LockeZ
Well, in MMORPGs, turn-based combat is obviously totally impossible. What, would you have to wait for every single player in the world to input their command for that round before you perform your attack?
Nope, turn-based combat is possible in MMORPGs. One particular MMORPG I've played before (known as TS Online) has a turn-based combat that works like Final Fantasy III and before, but adds a 20 second timer for all players to make their moves before time runs out. Then all actions will follow based on every individual character's agility. Of course though, there is a flaw in this because since it is heavily reliant on agility, usually the one with highest agility will prevail. But just saying turn-based combat is possible, just rare.
I guess turn-based battle system is getting rarer because real-time seems more realistic, apparently.
EDIT: And just like Ginseng mentioned, Fairyland and Atlantica are other examples of turn-based MMORPGs.
WolfCoder
3554
Yeah but Fairyland is a really shitty Chinese MMORPG that isn't worth it even though it's a free to play game. Dream of Mirror Online is the best I've seen games from China go and that's actually a fun MMO with the whole class system.
I can excuse a game for making me take turns if it's really big on strategy. Button mashing space should almost always lead you to your death in a well-designed turn-based battle system these days. Hello there, SMT!
Even in a furious action RPG, it is made better if you have to use good technique to win and pressing random keys won't do you too much good. I was going to write a complex AI for WeaponBirth combining fuzzy logic and predicate calculus, with a dose of good old fashioned mixed unit tactics. I like it when the enemy actually tries to intelligibly kick your ass ^^
I can excuse a game for making me take turns if it's really big on strategy. Button mashing space should almost always lead you to your death in a well-designed turn-based battle system these days. Hello there, SMT!
Even in a furious action RPG, it is made better if you have to use good technique to win and pressing random keys won't do you too much good. I was going to write a complex AI for WeaponBirth combining fuzzy logic and predicate calculus, with a dose of good old fashioned mixed unit tactics. I like it when the enemy actually tries to intelligibly kick your ass ^^
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=WolfCoderI resent that. It used to be an enjoyable game before it fell victim to the Cash Shop syndrome.
Yeah but Fairyland is a really shitty Chinese MMORPG that isn't worth it even though it's a free to play game.Dream of Mirror Online is the best I've seen games from China go and that's actually a fun MMO with the whole class system.
I might be missing something here but isn't Gunbound like a Turn Based MMORPG game like worms? I think it could work out well!
Shinan
4314
Turn based RPGS are sort of a niche nowadays. And since RPGs also are sort of a niche nowadays it is a case of a niche within a niche. RPGs generally go toward a more action-based style these days ("real time with pause" see the latest version of this in Oblivion With Guns and Mass Effect).
But within the niche (and the indie market especially) there's still the occasional turn-based development. Age of Decadence and Dead State are two indie RPGs that will have a purely turn-based system for example.
So like many subgenres they're not really dead and obsolete. They just aren't in the main spotlight.
But within the niche (and the indie market especially) there's still the occasional turn-based development. Age of Decadence and Dead State are two indie RPGs that will have a purely turn-based system for example.
So like many subgenres they're not really dead and obsolete. They just aren't in the main spotlight.
Pladough
163
Turn-based game play is dead if you don't own a Nintendo DS. I get my fill thanks to that little machine.
Hostilefun
30
The turn based game is not dead yet!
It just depends if you are buying localized games or not, as many games being released in japan are still turn-based. Most of the doujin gaming community still pumps out un-offical turn based games every time.
Rather, The lack of strategy and need of any thought is ruining the players.
It just depends if you are buying localized games or not, as many games being released in japan are still turn-based. Most of the doujin gaming community still pumps out un-offical turn based games every time.
Rather, The lack of strategy and need of any thought is ruining the players.
Ginseng_Tea
51
author=Archeia_NessiahWhile Gunbound is turn-based, other turn-based online games don't require you to wait so much. Gunbound had so much waiting. :[
I might be missing something here but isn't Gunbound like a Turn Based MMORPG game like worms? I think it could work out well!
author=ShinanNiche - That word's been thrown about in our discussion too.
Turn based RPGS are sort of a niche nowadays. And since RPGs also are sort of a niche nowadays it is a case of a niche within a niche. RPGs generally go toward a more action-based style these days ("real time with pause" see the latest version of this in Oblivion With Guns and Mass Effect).
But within the niche (and the indie market especially) there's still the occasional turn-based development. Age of Decadence and Dead State are two indie RPGs that will have a purely turn-based system for example.
So like many subgenres they're not really dead and obsolete. They just aren't in the main spotlight.
Do you think a Final Fantasy 14 with a turn-based system would be a big mistake?
author=PladoughPSP has its share of turn-based games, too. If you run out of DS games...
Turn-based game play is dead if you don't own a Nintendo DS. I get my fill thanks to that little machine.
author=Fallen-GrieverThe MMORPG market is one piggybacking game off of another in an attempt to make sure cash. because of this, throw backs to turn-based games are rare. While it may make sense in a marketing perspective, one can see the ill effects it may have.
Turn-based battles are dead because games that have traditionally relied on real-time input from multiple players (MMORPGs) don't utilise it. Makes perfect sense!
See: WoW clone (I'm not trolling when I say it)
Hell, even Fairyland (pitiful unnoticed turn-based game) got its share of clones.
Do you see any potential for larger turn-based MMORPG's? or do you think sticking to the norm is the best for this genre?
author=Fallen-GrieverSilly? I'm encouraging discussion on the missing link between single-player RPG and MMORPG. :[
EDIT:
If MMORPGs had traditionally utilised turn-based battles then this would make sense, but they never did. There are plenty of commercial RPGs being released that still use a turn-based system of one kind or another (hello, Pokemon!). This topic is silly.
I've not tried to say Pokemon doesn't exist.
I apologize if there is confusion, but I made this topic to shed some light on the lack of turn-based MMORPG's.
The ones I've played have been very enjoyable, but to see Square shun the system utilized in its 'most popular game' (Final Fantasy 7) forces me to question whether it's just me stuck on the past.
Do you think a AAA title (FF14) would fare well with such a system?
author=HostilefunWe're guilty of this ourselves.:]
The turn based game is not dead yet!
It just depends if you are buying localized games or not, as many games being released in japan are still turn-based. Most of the doujin gaming community still pumps out un-offical turn based games every time.
author=HostilefunWe're guilty of this ourselves.:[
Rather, The lack of strategy and need of any thought is ruining the players.
Shinan
4314
author=Ginseng_Teaauthor=Shinan
Turn based RPGS are sort of a niche nowadays. And since RPGs also are sort of a niche nowadays it is a case of a niche within a niche. RPGs generally go toward a more action-based style these days ("real time with pause" see the latest version of this in Oblivion With Guns and Mass Effect).
But within the niche (and the indie market especially) there's still the occasional turn-based development. Age of Decadence and Dead State are two indie RPGs that will have a purely turn-based system for example.
So like many subgenres they're not really dead and obsolete. They just aren't in the main spotlight.
Niche - That word's been thrown about in our discussion too.
Do you think a Final Fantasy 14 with a turn-based system would be a big mistake?
I guess you'd have to ask the Final Fantasy fanbase about that. But considering the things I know about the fanbase they could release a literal turd in a game case and it would sell. (and they've certainly done so already... okay not a literal turd but pretty close)
