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IS GRINDING A FLAW IN RPGS?
Posts
McBick
1339
McBick
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CloseThat's basically what I was talking about. I think the battle system in smrpg could be refined more though.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The Mario & Luigi games (as well as the Paper Mario games) are an interesting case. Because the games let you dodge enemy attacks by timing your button presses, you can beat every battle in the game at level 1. However, despite this, grinding is actually extremely effective at improving both your offense and defense. Levelling up and saving up coins for better equipment are never necessary to win, they simply decrease the difficulty level of the game by giving you more room for error.
But notably, they're also set up so that if you continuously use the wrong strategy or always mess up your attack timing, you can still lose battles no matter how high of a level you are. No amount of attack, defense and HP will let you win by using a normal jump attack on a spiny beetle - and that's such a simple gimmick that it appears in the first dungeon of most M&L games. The vast majority of boss battles, and even many normal battles, include gimmicks like this that keep you from progressing until you figure out how to win.
Summary: You are never required to grind even for a moment. And it is impossible to intentionally spend time grinding in order to overwhelm and thus bypass challenges. The only result of grinding is that you get more chances to mess up while you learn. This is key to what makes grinding "work" in M&L games.
(Mario RPG doesn't work like this. You can never totally avoid damage by timing your button presses, and normal attacks work on almost everything. Mario RPG is more like a traditional RPG in this regard.)
But notably, they're also set up so that if you continuously use the wrong strategy or always mess up your attack timing, you can still lose battles no matter how high of a level you are. No amount of attack, defense and HP will let you win by using a normal jump attack on a spiny beetle - and that's such a simple gimmick that it appears in the first dungeon of most M&L games. The vast majority of boss battles, and even many normal battles, include gimmicks like this that keep you from progressing until you figure out how to win.
Summary: You are never required to grind even for a moment. And it is impossible to intentionally spend time grinding in order to overwhelm and thus bypass challenges. The only result of grinding is that you get more chances to mess up while you learn. This is key to what makes grinding "work" in M&L games.
(Mario RPG doesn't work like this. You can never totally avoid damage by timing your button presses, and normal attacks work on almost everything. Mario RPG is more like a traditional RPG in this regard.)
McBick
1339
author=LockeZActually there are 2 kinds of blocked attacks. One is when you block normally, which reduces damage taken. The other one is when you block at an exact frame causing there to be no damage taken at all. You can't block all spells though, usually ones that target everyone. Also smrpg is a very unbalanced game since it has the most overpowered equipment I have ever seen in an rpg, talking about the lazy shell and items acquired through the super jump. Fun game though.
(Mario RPG doesn't work like this. You can never totally avoid damage by timing your button presses, and normal attacks work on almost everything. Mario RPG is more like a traditional RPG in this regard.)
Grinding would be a flaw, if the actual game itself was very short. Then in that case it'd be like 85% of the actual game-time would be filled with grinding and fighting insanely, beastly enemies. But if the game is a full length rpg game, then the grinding only makes sense. It evens out the game-play to a certain degree..
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Not seeing any validity to Thiamor's point. "Evens out"? What does this mean? If your game is long, you need a certain amount of non-fun gameplay to even out the fun gameplay? If you actually feel this is the case, or if you meant something else, then please justify your points with actual arguments so we know where you are coming from?
Spellbinder
72
(Just a marginal note)
One of my projects is called "GrindQuest" - oh my god, im flawed!
One of my projects is called "GrindQuest" - oh my god, im flawed!
I meant it evens out the time it takes to grind, over the time it takes to play the game. In my opinion.
I just feel a short game doesn't need grinding. Instead a decent system of experience points given and needed, so to speak. Because to me, it just doesn't feel right. I have no way to explain myself as it doesn't change anything, really. But with a long game, grinding just feels better than grinding on a short, short game.
I just feel a short game doesn't need grinding. Instead a decent system of experience points given and needed, so to speak. Because to me, it just doesn't feel right. I have no way to explain myself as it doesn't change anything, really. But with a long game, grinding just feels better than grinding on a short, short game.
Murmillo
0
Personally, I wouldn't consider it 'grinding' if I enjoyed the battle system and game play. Grinding kind of has a negative connotation to it (to most I would think).
Some games make me feel like it's a grind, or chore, and others are just fun.
(But I like to spend extra time in my dungeons, just in case that boss is nasty).
-On second thought, I would think that if dungeons are well designed, then by the time you get to the boss of it, and if the player didn't run away from fights, then they should be ready.
Some games make me feel like it's a grind, or chore, and others are just fun.
(But I like to spend extra time in my dungeons, just in case that boss is nasty).
-On second thought, I would think that if dungeons are well designed, then by the time you get to the boss of it, and if the player didn't run away from fights, then they should be ready.
facesforce
442
Recently, I played a game called Super Robot Taisen: Endless Frontier, a game which altered my idea of grinding quite a bit. If the games battle system is really fun, then you are in a grind haven. But if it is not... Well, it becomes tiring really fast. So is grinding a flaw? Who can say.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If the definition of grinding is "shit you don't like doing" then this is a meaningless topic; of course requiring you to repeatedly do things you don't find fun is going to make the game less fun.
If the definition of grinding is "repetition of any task you've done at least once before" then this becomes a more interesting topic where I can easily imagine people taking both sides. I dislike this kind of repetition in most situations, but I definitely understand its purpose and recognize that it's often unavoidable.
If the definition of grinding is "any non-boss battles" then I think the only real problem is that so many RPGs have such shitty, boring non-boss battles. When non-boss battles are fun and engaging I don't mind them at all. Only when they become mindless and repetitive do I get bored and stop having fun.
If the definition of grind is "a form of club dancing in which a dude dry humps a chick's ass" then RPGs would only be improved by including more grind.
If the definition of grinding is "repetition of any task you've done at least once before" then this becomes a more interesting topic where I can easily imagine people taking both sides. I dislike this kind of repetition in most situations, but I definitely understand its purpose and recognize that it's often unavoidable.
If the definition of grinding is "any non-boss battles" then I think the only real problem is that so many RPGs have such shitty, boring non-boss battles. When non-boss battles are fun and engaging I don't mind them at all. Only when they become mindless and repetitive do I get bored and stop having fun.
If the definition of grind is "a form of club dancing in which a dude dry humps a chick's ass" then RPGs would only be improved by including more grind.
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=facesforce
Recently, I played a game called Super Robot Taisen: Endless Frontier, a game which altered my idea of grinding quite a bit. If the games battle system is really fun, then you are in a grind haven. But if it is not... Well, it becomes tiring really fast. So is grinding a flaw? Who can say.
This. I would probably want to offer optional content to grind in, with rewards such as add'l resources, equipment, or story scenes. If you can make the battle system really fun, too, then I don't mind allowing someone to grind enemies to become overpowered, either.
Forced grinding with an un-fun battle system? No thanks.
