REVIEW SCORING: STANDARDIZATION, PROFESSIONALISM, ETC.

author=DemonofElru
I've been a frequent visitor of this site, but have had no need to introduce myself or really take part in any of the discussions (i.e. most of them are silly anyway) so I'm just going to make this comment, and then disappear entirely. This is entirely for your benefit, I have no stake in any one game or developer on here.

If you want to be taken seriously as a community, then stop downgrading your own games, and put an end to the "it's only a hobby" crap that has kept your community from being formally recognized for so long.

I'm not going to say much about myself, only that at where I work your community is usually laughed at because not a single game listed in your database would ever be accepted by an IGN staff member for digital distribution if any of your developers wanted to sell their products.

It's not because the games are crap, they're not. It's not because your community is crap, your community is definitely not that.

Here's the #1 secret to why not ONE game in your database would ever be considered "fit for commercialization"...you're not promoting your games to the general public correctly.

Here's a brief list of a few RM/Indie (all turn-based RPG) games that are doing very well, are commercialized, and that certain staffers would and have taken notice of:

Laxius Force Series
Aveyond Series
Winter Voices Series
Chronicles of a Dark Lord Series
King's Bounty Series
Disciples Series
Spellforce Series

You may loathe every game on that list, you may despise the developers, or you may like them or even love some of those games, but one thing they all have in common is that they have all been professionally reviewed by internet/tv/radio shows like G4TV, Just Press Start, IGN, and so on. Not just once either, but multiple times, and their games have stood up to professional scrutiny.

Not only have they have been professionally reviewed, they were generally (consensus-wise) well-liked by a majority sampling of customer data and sales figures. If you want to be taken seriously outside of the RM community, then start holding yourselves up to the par those developers have set, and exceed them.

Those professional reviews go a long way with businesses and distributors, and that is why they are successful while your games...unfortunately...are not so much. If your only audience is the "RM maker audience" then don't expect to be taken seriously outside of that audience. It's a cold way of thinking yes, but it's the absolute truth, and it does a disservice to those on your site who are thinking or who want to get in on the indie gaming scene as actual game developers.

They were promoted to the public correctly, and now they're all generating a buzz because of the way they were promoted. If you all truly want to be taken seriously as a community, to get your games out there, free or otherwise, then the day you stop seeing yourselves as "this is only a hobby" is the day you'll be taken seriously as game developers. Until then, don't expect to be. Or do what your predecessors have done, and don't be part of this community and distance yourself from it.

Put it this way, there are some great games on this site that could make some good money on the market if they were promoted correctly. Here are a few of the games on this site that could do quite well if promoted correctly in the 'real' business world:

Legionwood: Tale of the Two Swords

Alter A.I.L.A. Genesis

Leo & Leah: A Love Story

Obviously, if you are one of those developers then any and all rips from past games would have to be re-designed with standard/edited RM or original graphics, though games like those would likely do very well if they were put out on the market correctly.

You want your game to be "fit for commercialization"? Then get your game ready with all RM/edited RM graphics/original graphics, RM/edited RM music/royalty-free music/original music and such, then go to an entity like IGN, Game Informer, Just Press Start, and try to have your game reviewed (usually a demo works fine). Then go to any number of digital distributors (i.e. Gamersgate, GoG, Steam), submit your game, and hope it gets accepted. Distributors can be very picky, so even getting on just one distributor is a big deal, it means that they can expect sales from your game because it meets a certain quality of standard. Remember that.

If you have a comment to make, don't make it to me on here, for as soon as I click "logout" you'll never hear from me again more than likely, though as I said in the beginning this is for you all to know. Take this advice, don't take it, up to you.

HOLY FUCK. Everyone really needs to read this. However, I agree with a lot of what F_G said in response.

One thing I have to say to though, is that of the games this person mentioned, I'm pretty sure some of those actually do use stolen/ripped materials. So it's not even like having a game that's "legal" is really a bar to entering the commercial arena (unless you have ethics of any kind).

but this is just a hobby

I have never felt this way. I have always counted myself as a failed developer, not a successful hobbyist. Of course, I don't expect everyone to be this harsh on themselves. I extend this to all of my creative pursuits. I am a failed and/or struggling professional, not a skilled amateur.

I am quite impressed that a few RM-created games managed to break into the mainstream, and good for them! It is nice to see people with the motivation, ambition and dedication to pull that off.

But some of those games are utter shit, so fuck them. It's horribly unjust, just like Twilight and Harry Potter being not only published but a worldwide national phenomenon while literally millions of unequivocally better novels collect rejections. I don't know if you really mean what you're saying; maybe you just have a LOT more good will than I do. Actually, that's probably the case.

But this post challenges us to ask ourselves: would you rather be the author of something shitty and popular like Twilight (Laxius Power) or something actually GOOD but unrecognized? All of the years I've spent improving my skills as a developer would probably have been better invested, in a financial sense, improving my skills as a promoter.

So, for the layman, are people actually seriously suggesting we all start taking our rpgmaker projects deadly seriously and start considering ourselves struggling wannabe-professionals?

this topic is about the specifics of the internal review system for this site, a tool intended to help developers improve their work, not so much about what steps users can take to bring their games into the commercial sphere

author=Fallen-Griever
Original graphics, music and <whatever else> do not equal better games.

god how are you this stupid how is this possible it is like you are completely incapable of reading a body of text and discerning its meaning

author=Max McGee

author=NewBlack
So, for the layman, are people actually seriously suggesting we all start taking our rpgmaker projects deadly seriously and start considering ourselves struggling wannabe-professionals?

I think everyone should be free to approach it however you want. Viewing it as just a hobby is perfectly valid, and is probably a lot more healthy for you in the long run. Doesn't mean that people like myself and Craze aren't allowed to aspire to something more.

Actually I couldn't agree more. I love what Craze is going for in his new project, personally. It's a great example of a straight-up serious attempt at using RM to make a *real game* (excuse the nebulous definition). But I think extending that attitude to everyone is counter-productive to hobbyists who don't really benefit from escalating standards within a field they only got into as something to do for fun... It makes the entire process not fun anymore.

Edit: So yeah, I basically just re-iterated what you just said.

author=Ciel
this topic is about the specifics of the internal review system for this site, a tool intended to help developers improve their work, not so much about what steps users can take to bring their games into the commercial sphere

author=Fallen-Griever
Original graphics, music and <whatever else> do not equal better games.

god how are you this stupid how is this possible it is like you are completely incapable of reading a body of text and discerning its meaning

It directly states that RM* games aren't respected because they use rips. Games should be respected because they are fun, regardless of other factors. Ergo, I think that I made a valid point.

god how are you this stupid how is this possible it is like you are completely incapable of reading a body of text and discerning its meaning

Honestly I'm surprised this topic went on for so long that said, if a game is good it will get a good score, if a game is bad, not fun, or a blatant ripoff of something else it will get a score that reflects this. Nobody really cares about graphics and/or the music used in a game but rather how it is used in the game.

Whether you made a game to reflect professional level quality or made a game just for kicks, if it's good or bad that's the pretty much going to be reflected in it's score. Not everyone is going to make a 3 star game on their first try nor is everyone attempting to make a 1 star game. We simply make the games because we want to and learn from our previous attempts to better ourselves as developers. Instead of bitching about how most of the games are going to be rated x amount of stars if we use this or that setup for reviews we should be focused more on why we got those scores in the first place. And stop complaining about the commercial/professional level review vs hobby reviews because you're not only lying to yourselves by curving the score but you're also ignoring the fact that your game may really be as bad as someone says. If it's bad, learn from your mistakes.

If that's the case then there should be sections each with an individual score that's averaged. For example Story, Graphics, Audio, Gameplay, and Immersion, each having an individual score between 0 and 5 that's added together, averaged, and rounded

<off topic>

author=DemonofElru
If you want to be taken seriously as a community, then stop downgrading your own games, and put an end to the "it's only a hobby" crap that has kept your community from being formally recognized for so long.

This whole post made my day. The lack of promotion is one thing : it's true that, strangely enough, people who spend time making games instead of promoting them make less buzz while their games tend to be better. I can hardly blame them for doing something they like rather than running for internet fame.

But your main point is interesting. I hadn't been aware that giving was just a downgraded form of selling.

Is there really no end to the myth that being paid for something instantly turns you into someone different ?
Being a professional isn't "more".
Well, it's more lucrative, okay. But it doesn't make you more of a game maker (or critic) than if you're doing it for free. Think of it as an art or a sport if you feel diminished by the word "hobby" : is it ridiculous to write or paint or learn go or judo and become excellent at it (possibly just as good and dedicated as any professionnal), just for your own satisfaction ? Is it absurd to do things for free, even - or especially - if you do them very well ?

</off topic>

author=Fallen-Griever
the idea is to make it easier for people who come here from other websites to understand what the stars next to a game mean without having to go through a load of different reviews in order to understand that what we consider an "average" score is not the same as what they will have seen average games get given on other websites.

You keep saying this over and over and over again, but what's the point really ? There are eleven pages of 4+ star games on this site already. Do you honestly think that an outsider to the community, upon seeing this, will believe we're lacking in quality games ?
Or are you concerned by the "low" score of one game in particular that you feel you can't promote to the outside because of it ?

On the contrary I believe the problem for a newcomer would be the difficulty to single out those games that are the most worthy of their attention among those 11 pages (or 4 pages of 4.5 star games)

Oh actually that was meant as an earnest question, not an accusation - and not necessarily about your own games, I don't know them. I just can't see where you're coming from. Averages don't mean much since most games have 3 reviews at most and a fluctuation of 1 star can happen any time, but nevertheless, with 40 games rated 4.5/5 ( = 90% !) I'm not convinced that we're that different from the other rating systems. We must be somewhere between IMDb where 8/10 is already a very high level and Famitsu where it's physically impossible to have below 38/40.

It's common sense of the purest form. If you try to compare indi games with "professional" games you're doing it wrong. Why are you doing it wrong? Well, let's see shall we.

#1: Indi games are usually a single person. Some indi designers might have a small crew of people who help them out.

#2: Game companies PAY people to work eight hours a day to create a game. They also don't accept just anything and have a strict quality assurance set in place.
Imagine if you had a big boss man breathing down your neck while you tried to create your indi game? Yeah, that doesn't fit well for most people who aren't getting paid but instead putting out a free game for everybody.

Most indi developers go through a lot of hard work just to find their game bashed by a JRPG/COD fanboi. The reviewer is completely fucking oblivious to the fact the game was made by a solo artist or small group of people and bash the shit out of it with completely retarded statements like. "Call of Duty is better. This is boring."


There SHOULD be a review a reviewer and if that reviewer gets horrible ratings their ability to review is revoked. The best review of a game or movie is the MOB not a single person's opinion. A group of one thousand people with LIKE/DISLIKE opinions usually tell the truth pretty good. Of course you have trolls who rate everything bad because they are just assholes but not everybody is like that.


As far as the rating system goes. I think "Wording" would be more user friendly. Just like that person at the beginning of this thread suggested.