DIFFICULTY
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like difficulty in games. When I win, it makes me feel like it was actually an accomplishment, instead of just an inevitability. It makes me feel good.
Difficulty in RPGs can be sticky compared to difficulty in more actiony games, though. A lot of professional RPG designers don't seem to have the foggiest idea how to do it, so you get games like the Suikoden series that could be beaten by a drunken quadriplegic ferret. As I see it, there are a few things that can be classified as "difficulty" in an RPG.
Reflexes and coordination - Introducing action game mechanics into an RPG can add very real difficulty to the game, especially for players who are used to RPGs and do not play many action games. This can be integrated into traditional battles like Mario RPG and Paper Mario, where every hit must be timed; or done on a full Action RPG scale like the Mana or Tales or Kingdom Hearts series, where you must actually run around and attack the enemies with each button press; or done on a much more limited level for just a couple skills like in Final Fantasy 8 and Final Fantasy 10, where your limit breaks are the only skills that involve timed button input.
Time consumption - Raw repetition as a requirement for success. This qualifies difficulty in that it makes the game harder to play; unfortunately, the reason it's harder to play is because it's less fun and makes you want to quit. This type of "difficulty" is typically not desirable in most situations, though in an online game where you are attempting to form a community, you may want to include a healthy amount of this to keep people playing longer than they would otherwise.
Complexity - So this ability costs 25 rage point and 16 MP and has a 3 round cooldown, and is only usable when the limit gauge of two or more of your allies is between 15 and 45 percent. Rage points are restored by 5-8 points every time you perform a normal attack and by 10-15 points every time you're hit by a normal attack, while MP recovers by 10% of its maximum amount every round, and both are reduced by half at the end of every normal battle, by 1/3 at the end of every sub-elite battle, and by 1/5 at the end of every elite battle. To learn the ability you must have spent 15 talent points in the Discipline talent tree and have learned the three prerequisite abilities that are above it in the tree, and your job level in the Dark Hunter job must be at least level 15, while your experience level must be at least 40 and your strength level and agility level must each be at least 4B and 3A, respectively. The player will spend the first half of the game just figuring out how the hell to play - once he understands everything, he will typically be able to abuse this knowledge to completely overpower enemies in a large variety of ways. This can actually be quite fun if done right, because it eventually gives the player a feeling of "overcoming the system" which is extremely satisfying. However, at the beginning of the game, it is often very frustrating for a new player, unless you are really good at introducing the ideas gradually.
Problem solving - My personal favorite form of difficulty in RPGs. You have a variety of abilities with interesting side-effects that work together in unusual ways, and you have to figure out how to use them to overcome skills that the enemies use. So, you're in the middle of fighting a boss, and your fire spell inflicts a damage-over-time effect, and then the boss counters with an area magic spell that only one of your characters is immune to, so you heal the other three with an area healing spell, and then dualcast Shell on two of them, but not the third because he has an attack that gets stronger when his HP is low, and then you cast a lightning spell because using fire again would be a waste while the boss is still taking damage from the first fire spell, but you didn't notice that the boss had used WallChange and now absorbs lightning, and he counter-attacks by draining your mage's MP down to 0, so you have your monk use his Chakra ability that you never usually use because it's awful but it does heal the entire party's MP a little bit, and then one of your other characters starts charging up for a strong physical attack but the boss kills him with an instant death spell before he finishes, but you had cast Reraise on that character so he manages to pull the attack off anyway, and now Shell wore off but you wait to recast it until the cooldown for Doublecast has worn off, and in the meantime the boss uses an area attack again and kills 3 of your 4 party members, causing the last one to go into Enrage mode and gain double attack power, so you summon Phoenix which revives your party and almost kills the boss, and then you have three members low on HP so you use the monk's Sacrifice ability to kill him off and fully heal the other two, and then since the boss is low on HP you use your other three characters's strongest attacks with no regard to survival and you finally win. When I design player and enemy skillsets, I try to create situations like this - situations where, every turn, you are responding to events that have taken place in the battle so far and thinking about how each of your skills can counteract whatever problems the enemies are causing or augment whatever strategies your allies are using. So that the player is never just using his optimal damage output strategy over and over, never button mashing his simplest attacks and healing spells, but always thinking critically about the situation. Because if he doesn't, he will die.
Preparation - The player is tested not on his ability to fight the battle, but on his ability to create a party that can effectively deal with challenges. You have enemies that use paralyze? Sleep? Instant death? Powerful lightning attacks? You're dead meat unless you find a way to make yourself immune to the effect or give at least two characters ways to heal the effect. You need characters that have access to the right elements, to the right buffs and ailments, to all the healing and tanking skills you need. You need a party of characters that complement each-other and build upon each-others' skills. This is very closely linked to customization, and yet at the same time directly opposed to it. You can't have this type of difficulty unless your game allows a lot of customization, but each thing the player has to do to be successful removes alternative options as valid choices. If the player has to wear a poisonproof accessory for this fight, then all your other accessories are "wrong" choices and the customization is essentially nullified and replaced with preparation-based difficulty. A decent measure of this is necessary in any game that gives you any customization at all, but it must be carefully balanced with customization so that neither one nullifies the other too heavily.
Bullshit - I am using this as kind of a catch-all for things that cause the player to lose that are not the player's fault. Typically in RPGs this amounts to inability to read the designer's mind (how am I supposed to know that Meteor Strike is tri-elemental and is cast every 8 rounds on the party member with the second highest HP and can only be blocked by giving that party member all three elemental barriers on that round?), instant death attacks, crippling status effects that can't be reliably recovered from or prevented, or whatever other bullshit you can think of. If every choice you made as a player was the best you could make under the circumstances, and you still were able to die, that is the definition of bullshit.
Can you guys think of other things that qualify as difficulty in RPGs? Do you disagree with anything above?
Difficulty in RPGs can be sticky compared to difficulty in more actiony games, though. A lot of professional RPG designers don't seem to have the foggiest idea how to do it, so you get games like the Suikoden series that could be beaten by a drunken quadriplegic ferret. As I see it, there are a few things that can be classified as "difficulty" in an RPG.
Reflexes and coordination - Introducing action game mechanics into an RPG can add very real difficulty to the game, especially for players who are used to RPGs and do not play many action games. This can be integrated into traditional battles like Mario RPG and Paper Mario, where every hit must be timed; or done on a full Action RPG scale like the Mana or Tales or Kingdom Hearts series, where you must actually run around and attack the enemies with each button press; or done on a much more limited level for just a couple skills like in Final Fantasy 8 and Final Fantasy 10, where your limit breaks are the only skills that involve timed button input.
Time consumption - Raw repetition as a requirement for success. This qualifies difficulty in that it makes the game harder to play; unfortunately, the reason it's harder to play is because it's less fun and makes you want to quit. This type of "difficulty" is typically not desirable in most situations, though in an online game where you are attempting to form a community, you may want to include a healthy amount of this to keep people playing longer than they would otherwise.
Complexity - So this ability costs 25 rage point and 16 MP and has a 3 round cooldown, and is only usable when the limit gauge of two or more of your allies is between 15 and 45 percent. Rage points are restored by 5-8 points every time you perform a normal attack and by 10-15 points every time you're hit by a normal attack, while MP recovers by 10% of its maximum amount every round, and both are reduced by half at the end of every normal battle, by 1/3 at the end of every sub-elite battle, and by 1/5 at the end of every elite battle. To learn the ability you must have spent 15 talent points in the Discipline talent tree and have learned the three prerequisite abilities that are above it in the tree, and your job level in the Dark Hunter job must be at least level 15, while your experience level must be at least 40 and your strength level and agility level must each be at least 4B and 3A, respectively. The player will spend the first half of the game just figuring out how the hell to play - once he understands everything, he will typically be able to abuse this knowledge to completely overpower enemies in a large variety of ways. This can actually be quite fun if done right, because it eventually gives the player a feeling of "overcoming the system" which is extremely satisfying. However, at the beginning of the game, it is often very frustrating for a new player, unless you are really good at introducing the ideas gradually.
Problem solving - My personal favorite form of difficulty in RPGs. You have a variety of abilities with interesting side-effects that work together in unusual ways, and you have to figure out how to use them to overcome skills that the enemies use. So, you're in the middle of fighting a boss, and your fire spell inflicts a damage-over-time effect, and then the boss counters with an area magic spell that only one of your characters is immune to, so you heal the other three with an area healing spell, and then dualcast Shell on two of them, but not the third because he has an attack that gets stronger when his HP is low, and then you cast a lightning spell because using fire again would be a waste while the boss is still taking damage from the first fire spell, but you didn't notice that the boss had used WallChange and now absorbs lightning, and he counter-attacks by draining your mage's MP down to 0, so you have your monk use his Chakra ability that you never usually use because it's awful but it does heal the entire party's MP a little bit, and then one of your other characters starts charging up for a strong physical attack but the boss kills him with an instant death spell before he finishes, but you had cast Reraise on that character so he manages to pull the attack off anyway, and now Shell wore off but you wait to recast it until the cooldown for Doublecast has worn off, and in the meantime the boss uses an area attack again and kills 3 of your 4 party members, causing the last one to go into Enrage mode and gain double attack power, so you summon Phoenix which revives your party and almost kills the boss, and then you have three members low on HP so you use the monk's Sacrifice ability to kill him off and fully heal the other two, and then since the boss is low on HP you use your other three characters's strongest attacks with no regard to survival and you finally win. When I design player and enemy skillsets, I try to create situations like this - situations where, every turn, you are responding to events that have taken place in the battle so far and thinking about how each of your skills can counteract whatever problems the enemies are causing or augment whatever strategies your allies are using. So that the player is never just using his optimal damage output strategy over and over, never button mashing his simplest attacks and healing spells, but always thinking critically about the situation. Because if he doesn't, he will die.
Preparation - The player is tested not on his ability to fight the battle, but on his ability to create a party that can effectively deal with challenges. You have enemies that use paralyze? Sleep? Instant death? Powerful lightning attacks? You're dead meat unless you find a way to make yourself immune to the effect or give at least two characters ways to heal the effect. You need characters that have access to the right elements, to the right buffs and ailments, to all the healing and tanking skills you need. You need a party of characters that complement each-other and build upon each-others' skills. This is very closely linked to customization, and yet at the same time directly opposed to it. You can't have this type of difficulty unless your game allows a lot of customization, but each thing the player has to do to be successful removes alternative options as valid choices. If the player has to wear a poisonproof accessory for this fight, then all your other accessories are "wrong" choices and the customization is essentially nullified and replaced with preparation-based difficulty. A decent measure of this is necessary in any game that gives you any customization at all, but it must be carefully balanced with customization so that neither one nullifies the other too heavily.
Bullshit - I am using this as kind of a catch-all for things that cause the player to lose that are not the player's fault. Typically in RPGs this amounts to inability to read the designer's mind (how am I supposed to know that Meteor Strike is tri-elemental and is cast every 8 rounds on the party member with the second highest HP and can only be blocked by giving that party member all three elemental barriers on that round?), instant death attacks, crippling status effects that can't be reliably recovered from or prevented, or whatever other bullshit you can think of. If every choice you made as a player was the best you could make under the circumstances, and you still were able to die, that is the definition of bullshit.
Can you guys think of other things that qualify as difficulty in RPGs? Do you disagree with anything above?
I like the examples.
I definitely think some degree of trail and error should be present in games. Gotta lose a few times to enjoy the win.
I am in favor of complexity, but like you said you have to start very slowly.
There is also Luck based difficulty, which may fall into the category of bullshit.
I definitely think some degree of trail and error should be present in games. Gotta lose a few times to enjoy the win.
I am in favor of complexity, but like you said you have to start very slowly.
There is also Luck based difficulty, which may fall into the category of bullshit.
There's also level of difficulty, usually put onto a range from 1 to five or even up to 10, games can and should be challenging. I'm not to good in games, but I try and I act like I am, even if I get tons of gameovers...
Anyways...
1:These games are games with no battles, and just walk here to there with no challenge what-so-ever.
2:This takes it a step further, and still without fighting, there are puzzles, but are incredibly easy to solve.
3:Now there are battles, but there just one hit kills or puzzle fights, you know what a one hit kill is, but do you like it when you just hit an enemy and they die, ESPECIALLY ON BOSSES! And puzzle bosses are for people who want to add challenge to their game and even add their own battle system, but can't deal with all the coding. Just solve a puzzle while an enemy just sits there, that's a great idea isn't it! *_*...nevermind,anyways!
4:The puzzles get a little more difficult along with the battles, and I don't think these include puzzle battles.Sadly, this up to 6 or 7 is my range...
5:This is mid-way challenge, it get's way better! Battles aren't that easy, and you can get stuck in a puzzle if your not careful enough, but you can fix it.
6:The challenge is getting a little more difficult, battles are harder and can take longer if your a wimp(level 2 to 4), and if your a level 1 player, don't go near here until you've gotten better! Puzzles do pretty good and are literally alot bigger than before, all RPG's I think have quests, but the others were just unmentionable! This is where it gets good.
7:7 is a little more difficult as puzzles get a little too hard to solve unless you know about Allusions, references, certain blocks or symbols reference others, and the people who code this are making it a little bit difficult for themselves.Battles are doing good, but bosses take pretty long now if your even around just 6th level player!
8:You're fucked here, it's getting impossible! The quests are going across the land just to do some random stuff while random enemies beat your ass up! Puzzles are barely merciful do you have to find this really hard way around the thing just to restart the damn puzzle!Battles are completely unmerciful here and you get killed way too easily, hopefully these aren't RPG's without gameovers!
9:You're are expert here, if you can beat these quests,puzzles, and enemies, no one will be playing DND with you for a while. The quests get way to complex, puzzles aren't merciful at all, and the battles in the beggining just suck AAAAAASSSSS!!!
10:You're fucked, these are broken games that aren't tested and either have game breaking bugs, or have teleports that fuck you over, or impossible to navigate maps,or just points where you can't go on like a dead end or point in the game that says the coding went wrong and it giltches up. These puzzles are walls that you can't get by, no quests are in here because the puzzles ARE your quests,and your first fight your dead, you can't even escape...
And those are all the levels of difficulty.
Anyways...
1:These games are games with no battles, and just walk here to there with no challenge what-so-ever.
2:This takes it a step further, and still without fighting, there are puzzles, but are incredibly easy to solve.
3:Now there are battles, but there just one hit kills or puzzle fights, you know what a one hit kill is, but do you like it when you just hit an enemy and they die, ESPECIALLY ON BOSSES! And puzzle bosses are for people who want to add challenge to their game and even add their own battle system, but can't deal with all the coding. Just solve a puzzle while an enemy just sits there, that's a great idea isn't it! *_*...nevermind,anyways!
4:The puzzles get a little more difficult along with the battles, and I don't think these include puzzle battles.Sadly, this up to 6 or 7 is my range...
5:This is mid-way challenge, it get's way better! Battles aren't that easy, and you can get stuck in a puzzle if your not careful enough, but you can fix it.
6:The challenge is getting a little more difficult, battles are harder and can take longer if your a wimp(level 2 to 4), and if your a level 1 player, don't go near here until you've gotten better! Puzzles do pretty good and are literally alot bigger than before, all RPG's I think have quests, but the others were just unmentionable! This is where it gets good.
7:7 is a little more difficult as puzzles get a little too hard to solve unless you know about Allusions, references, certain blocks or symbols reference others, and the people who code this are making it a little bit difficult for themselves.Battles are doing good, but bosses take pretty long now if your even around just 6th level player!
8:You're fucked here, it's getting impossible! The quests are going across the land just to do some random stuff while random enemies beat your ass up! Puzzles are barely merciful do you have to find this really hard way around the thing just to restart the damn puzzle!Battles are completely unmerciful here and you get killed way too easily, hopefully these aren't RPG's without gameovers!
9:You're are expert here, if you can beat these quests,puzzles, and enemies, no one will be playing DND with you for a while. The quests get way to complex, puzzles aren't merciful at all, and the battles in the beggining just suck AAAAAASSSSS!!!
10:You're fucked, these are broken games that aren't tested and either have game breaking bugs, or have teleports that fuck you over, or impossible to navigate maps,or just points where you can't go on like a dead end or point in the game that says the coding went wrong and it giltches up. These puzzles are walls that you can't get by, no quests are in here because the puzzles ARE your quests,and your first fight your dead, you can't even escape...
And those are all the levels of difficulty.
Reflexes and coordination - Introducing action game mechanics into an RPG can add very real difficulty to the game, especially for players who are used to RPGs and do not play many action games. This can be integrated into traditional battles like Mario RPG and Paper Mario, where every hit must be timed; or done on a full Action RPG scale like the Mana or Tales or Kingdom Hearts series, where you must actually run around and attack the enemies with each button press; or done on a much more limited level for just a couple skills like in Final Fantasy 8 and Final Fantasy 10, where your limit breaks are the only skills that involve timed button input.
no, don't do this >:|
When I play an RPG I want to play an RPG, not a twitch game. (This kind of mechanic is what made me not enjoy Super Mario RPG, Jade Empire, and Sabin in FFVI). For me, an RPG is more about strategic choices (both before and during a battle) - not about twitch reflexes or timing. Bleargh.
Wow. I love it when people post huge posts. They end up in my game notes.
I love difficulty in games. And thanks, LockeZ!
I love difficulty in games. And thanks, LockeZ!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I agree with Kentona that adding twitch reflexes to an RPG makes it less enjoyable to most people who love RPGs. At the same time, it makes it more enjoyable to most people who hate RPGs. A lot of major game developers seem to think that something like 98% of the gaming market hates RPGs, so this has become a pretty common practice. However, I assume it's safe to say that most people around here love them.
Personally, if rating these types of difficulty by how much I enjoy them, I would put them in this order:
1) Problem solving
2) Complexity
3) Preparation
4) Reflexes and coordination
5) Time consumption
6) Bullshit
Your mileage will vary for the top four; they tend to be mostly an issue of preference, as there are good points to all four. I feel like those bottom two are probably the bottom two for almost everyone, though.
Personally, if rating these types of difficulty by how much I enjoy them, I would put them in this order:
1) Problem solving
2) Complexity
3) Preparation
4) Reflexes and coordination
5) Time consumption
6) Bullshit
Your mileage will vary for the top four; they tend to be mostly an issue of preference, as there are good points to all four. I feel like those bottom two are probably the bottom two for almost everyone, though.
Difficult or not, Suikoden 1 and 2 were wonderful nonetheless.
author=LockeZ
So, you're in the middle of fighting a boss, and your fire spell inflicts a damage-over-time effect, and then the boss counters with an area magic spell that only one of your characters is immune to, so you heal the other three with an area healing spell, and then dualcast Shell on two of them, but not the third because he has an attack that gets stronger when his HP is low, and then you cast a lightning spell because using fire again would be a waste while the boss is still taking damage from the first fire spell, but you didn't notice that the boss had used WallChange and now absorbs lightning, and he counter-attacks by draining your mage's MP down to 0, so you have your monk use his Chakra ability that you never usually use because it's awful but it does heal the entire party's MP a little bit, and then one of your other characters starts charging up for a strong physical attack but the boss kills him with an instant death spell before he finishes, but you had cast Reraise on that character so he manages to pull the attack off anyway, and now Shell wore off but you wait to recast it until the cooldown for Doublecast has worn off, and in the meantime the boss uses an area attack again and kills 3 of your 4 party members, causing the last one to go into Enrage mode and gain double attack power, so you summon Phoenix which revives your party and almost kills the boss, and then you have three members low on HP so you use the monk's Sacrifice ability to kill him off and fully heal the other two, and then since the boss is low on HP you use your other three characters's strongest attacks with no regard to survival and you finally win.
Where have I read this before? -_o
One thing I don't know where it goes. I suppose it's a combination of problem solving, complexity and preparation.
The bloody tactical map!
Sure in most RPGs it doesn't enter into it too much. But in party-based games where you move around in turn based tactical battles. A very satistfying moment was once in Fallout Tactics (not a "proper" rpg, but neither are most games you list so stfu) where I had managed to sneak my guys around sandbags and the completely unaware raiders stood by a campfire, probably talking bullshit (but in reality the AI was probably just pre-programmed to set them to stand there and then maybe attack whatever they saw whenever they saw it. But don't ruin my imagination with reality). I positioned my guys and stood them up from the sandbags unloaded some automatic fire into them and then dropped down again. They never knew what was coming and for one of few times in that game it felt like I had actually managed to pull off a planned maneuver.
Similar things happened in Silent Storm (it had XP and inventories so it should count as an RPG) especially with the destructible environments where you could blow a hole in a wall and flank the enemies for fun and profit.
The bloody tactical map!
Sure in most RPGs it doesn't enter into it too much. But in party-based games where you move around in turn based tactical battles. A very satistfying moment was once in Fallout Tactics (not a "proper" rpg, but neither are most games you list so stfu) where I had managed to sneak my guys around sandbags and the completely unaware raiders stood by a campfire, probably talking bullshit (but in reality the AI was probably just pre-programmed to set them to stand there and then maybe attack whatever they saw whenever they saw it. But don't ruin my imagination with reality). I positioned my guys and stood them up from the sandbags unloaded some automatic fire into them and then dropped down again. They never knew what was coming and for one of few times in that game it felt like I had actually managed to pull off a planned maneuver.
Similar things happened in Silent Storm (it had XP and inventories so it should count as an RPG) especially with the destructible environments where you could blow a hole in a wall and flank the enemies for fun and profit.
Out of all those options, I prefer problem solving. It's problem solving that gives the fights variations and that gives my brain something to do all the time. Roughly, problem solving means that the player has to use tactics that depends on the enemies and what they are doing, not solely on what the character are good at. The reason this is so great is because the player generally only changes his/her character setup between dungeons while enemies can change from battle to battle, therefore enemy based tactics leads to more variance than character based tactics.
Preparation is also fun, but it's very limiting by itself. You spend some time setting the characters up, but when you're done, it's back to using the same string of commands over and over. In fact, being better prepared than the creator expected can sometimes decrease the aspect of problem solving as the player can just smash trough the problems rather than solving them. Still, I do definitely enjoy trying to optimize my characters.
I don't think complexity necessarily adds difficulty as much as it widens the gap between the players. A good example of that is Final Fantasy VIII and it's junction system. Some players complain that they can only damage the enemies properly by summoning over and over, which is certainly aggravating due to their long animations. Other players instead find that the enemies provides almost no resistance whatsoever as they are killed quickly while dealing next to no damage in return. Frankly, I don't think high level of complexity adds that much.
When it comes to reflexes and coordination, I prefer an all or nothing deal. Either make a fully action based such as Kingdom Hearts or don't have it at all. I don't like it added to traditional RPG battles,such as the case with the Legend of Dragoon addition system. To me it's like saying "we can't figure out how to make the enemies require attention, so instead we make your own attacks require attention".
Preparation is also fun, but it's very limiting by itself. You spend some time setting the characters up, but when you're done, it's back to using the same string of commands over and over. In fact, being better prepared than the creator expected can sometimes decrease the aspect of problem solving as the player can just smash trough the problems rather than solving them. Still, I do definitely enjoy trying to optimize my characters.
I don't think complexity necessarily adds difficulty as much as it widens the gap between the players. A good example of that is Final Fantasy VIII and it's junction system. Some players complain that they can only damage the enemies properly by summoning over and over, which is certainly aggravating due to their long animations. Other players instead find that the enemies provides almost no resistance whatsoever as they are killed quickly while dealing next to no damage in return. Frankly, I don't think high level of complexity adds that much.
When it comes to reflexes and coordination, I prefer an all or nothing deal. Either make a fully action based such as Kingdom Hearts or don't have it at all. I don't like it added to traditional RPG battles,such as the case with the Legend of Dragoon addition system. To me it's like saying "we can't figure out how to make the enemies require attention, so instead we make your own attacks require attention".
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
What would you say is the difference between proper difficulty and "just widening the gap between players"? A lot of people would say these are the same thing. Certainly, the latter is an inevitable result of the former.
If you make the enemies stronger, the game becomes harder for both good and bad players. However, if you add a complicated character building system, that can make the game harder for bad players who builds weak characters, while it makes the game easier for good players who builds powerful characters.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Hmm. But.
I can see where you're coming from, but... adding complexity still causes the complexity itself to be harder. If we're saying that complexity is a type of challenge, that it's a type of difficulty that the player is expected to have to overcome in order to be successful, then adding more of it adds more difficulty.
I do agree, definitely, that if the player is skilled at handling the complexity, then the problem solving becomes simpler. That's absolutely true. The problem solving in battle allows a wider margin of error because your skill in complexity made you stronger. But the same is true of preparation: if you are skilled at handling the preparation, then the problem solving becomes simpler. On the same token, if you are skilled at handling the problem solving, then the preparation becomes easier: you can fail at certain aspects of it and still win.
And in fact, I think this works in all directions. If you're skilled at handling the preparation, then you don't have to work as hard at the time consumption or the complexity. If your game involves reflexes and you're skilled at handling the reflexes, then you can win with less preparation and with less problem solving and with less time consumption and with less complexity. It seems like this is universal - being good at any one part of the game will make it so you don't have to be as good at other parts.
The exception, I guess, is if the different types of difficulty are completely separated into distinct gameplay segments: a reflex-based level, then a problem solving based level, then a pure time consumption level, then a level with nothing but complexity, and you earn no powers or rewards or anything else that carry over from one segment to the next.
I can see where you're coming from, but... adding complexity still causes the complexity itself to be harder. If we're saying that complexity is a type of challenge, that it's a type of difficulty that the player is expected to have to overcome in order to be successful, then adding more of it adds more difficulty.
I do agree, definitely, that if the player is skilled at handling the complexity, then the problem solving becomes simpler. That's absolutely true. The problem solving in battle allows a wider margin of error because your skill in complexity made you stronger. But the same is true of preparation: if you are skilled at handling the preparation, then the problem solving becomes simpler. On the same token, if you are skilled at handling the problem solving, then the preparation becomes easier: you can fail at certain aspects of it and still win.
And in fact, I think this works in all directions. If you're skilled at handling the preparation, then you don't have to work as hard at the time consumption or the complexity. If your game involves reflexes and you're skilled at handling the reflexes, then you can win with less preparation and with less problem solving and with less time consumption and with less complexity. It seems like this is universal - being good at any one part of the game will make it so you don't have to be as good at other parts.
The exception, I guess, is if the different types of difficulty are completely separated into distinct gameplay segments: a reflex-based level, then a problem solving based level, then a pure time consumption level, then a level with nothing but complexity, and you earn no powers or rewards or anything else that carry over from one segment to the next.
author=LockeZ
I can see where you're coming from, but... adding complexity still causes the complexity itself to be harder. If we're saying that complexity is a type of challenge, that it's a type of difficulty that the player is expected to have to overcome in order to be successful, then adding more of it adds more difficulty.
You're right. I focused on difficulty in beating monsters and my experience with complicated systems, such as FF VIII's junktion system, is that enemies become really easy to beat since I have overpowered characters. That was why I didn't think of complexity as a difficulty.
I do agree, definitely, that if the player is skilled at handling the complexity, then the problem solving becomes simpler. That's absolutely true. The problem solving in battle allows a wider margin of error because your skill in complexity made you stronger. But the same is true of preparation: if you are skilled at handling the preparation, then the problem solving becomes simpler. On the same token, if you are skilled at handling the problem solving, then the preparation becomes easier: you can fail at certain aspects of it and still win.
And in fact, I think this works in all directions. If you're skilled at handling the preparation, then you don't have to work as hard at the time consumption or the complexity. If your game involves reflexes and you're skilled at handling the reflexes, then you can win with less preparation and with less problem solving and with less time consumption and with less complexity. It seems like this is universal - being good at any one part of the game will make it so you don't have to be as good at other parts.
This is definitely true. However, I noticed one peculiar thing, for me it's a good thing in all genres except for RPGs.
When playing Contra, I didn't have great reflexes, but I managed to compensate by being able to "see in the future" so to say. I learned how the randomly spawning enemies moved and could judge which spots would be safe respective dangerous soon.
This is also a way to lower the chance of a player getting stuck. If you need one particular skill, you can encounter a situation you cannot handle. However, if there are multiple skills tested and you can compensate the lack of one by doing great in another, there's a much lower chance you run into a complete stop.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work so well in RPGs. If I'm good at preparation or complexity, problem solving don't just become easier, it becomes duller as well. The more optimized my characters are, the fewer the number of useful skills. I get into situations where my characters simple are to strong for certain skills to be useful.
The exception, I guess, is if the different types of difficulty are completely separated into distinct gameplay segments: a reflex-based level, then a problem solving based level, then a pure time consumption level, then a level with nothing but complexity, and you earn no powers or rewards or anything else that carry over from one segment to the next.
Alternatively, you can create a scenario where the player has to be good at all of them and there's very little in ways of compensating if you're lacking in one skill. One example is raid bosses in World of Warcraft. To beat them, your party has to both have good enough gear and the players have to know what to do. If your gear isn't good enough, either you will flat out die (the tank isn't durable enough) or you can't defeat the boss fast enough and some form of time limit kicks in. If you don't know what to do or you do know, but cannot execute the maneuvers properly, you (and sometimes teammates as well) will often get hit by something strong enough to kill you many times over. In neither case can you compensate for lacking in one by being better than needed in the other.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
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author=Crystalgate
Alternatively, you can create a scenario where the player has to be good at all of them and there's very little in ways of compensating if you're lacking in one skill. One example is raid bosses in World of Warcraft. To beat them, your party has to both have good enough gear and the players have to know what to do. If your gear isn't good enough, either you will flat out die (the tank isn't durable enough) or you can't defeat the boss fast enough and some form of time limit kicks in. If you don't know what to do or you do know, but cannot execute the maneuvers properly, you (and sometimes teammates as well) will often get hit by something strong enough to kill you many times over. In neither case can you compensate for lacking in one by being better than needed in the other.
I think this is actually an extremely good way to handle time consumption.
See, testing the player's willingness to put up with time consumption isn't fun. Time consumption isn't something I want players to feel like they gain an advantage from, because then they compulsively go out of their way to do it, and as a result the game becomes less fun for them. Yet a lot of RPGs do exactly that: you can keep gaining more and more experience until all other types of challenge become obsolete. This can even happen by accident if the game offers engaging sidequests and makes time consumption seem like fun - but even though you're having fun at the time, it removes all of the other aspects of the game's challenge when you reach them later.
Making a game with no time consumption is obviously impossible, and trying to make your game as short as possible is not really advisable, but what you can do is make time consumption have a binary effect on other aspects of challenge, like what you described in WoW. You can make it so once you pass a certain point in time consumption - say, level 10 - you can no longer put extra effort into time consumption to become more powerful and marginalize the rest of the gameplay. One way of doing this is an experience system where enemies stop giving rewards when you surpass them in level. Another way is to have a limited number of encounters in the game, so that once you kill them all, you're done killing them. Or you can make a game with no 'level up' system at all, so that the only time the player gets a benefit from time consumption is when he's spending that time moving forward in the game.
I kind of wonder why so many RPGs give time consumption such a huge benefit.
You're right and there are other ways to get round this such as making the same enemies get stronger or they use stronger skills. In my own game leveling up doesn't improve your stats dramatically. So by time you are level 50 your health is probably only 4x larger. It's more of the fact of what Items you have equipped that increases power. Therefore leveling up is good for learning new skills for more problem solving rather than becoming invincible against your opponents.
author=LockeZ
I kind of wonder why so many RPGs give time consumption such a huge benefit.
I think it's because it was a set formula that had a huge success when those first rpgs came out, but every one, on the whole, has totally outgrown that. I think some people don't realize this enough.
I'm just chipping in here, and I'm going to say that I don't really mind the traditional RPG formula and while I enjoy new twists and ideas, I'm not really asking for them either. I also don't mind difficulty and to be challenged and occasionally frustrated, I play games that demand something from me in order to have the privilege of getting a cool item or a weapon or beating them in general.
For example, the balls to the wall difficulty of Demon's Souls certainly wouldn't fit in every game, but it's acclaimed for a good reason; victories in that game are definitely sweet.
There's a thin line between a new idea or a twist on an old mechanic being genius or 'what the fuck is this shit who asked for this'. I am sure that I represent a demographic of gamers who feel the same way.
For example, the balls to the wall difficulty of Demon's Souls certainly wouldn't fit in every game, but it's acclaimed for a good reason; victories in that game are definitely sweet.
There's a thin line between a new idea or a twist on an old mechanic being genius or 'what the fuck is this shit who asked for this'. I am sure that I represent a demographic of gamers who feel the same way.