ACTION SCENES IN RM2K3

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There was a saying, "Just because nobody is doing it, doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do."

Just because a commercial game's writing is "horrible" by your standards doesn't mean that yours should be too.
author=Archeia_Nessiah
There was a saying, "Just because nobody is doing it, doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do."

Just because a commercial game's writing is "horrible" by your standards doesn't mean that yours should be too.


it's the reason I want to make my own rpg - I think to myself - man, I could do better than that, what a waste of all that budget
I'll just say that the idea that you can't improve your writing skill is the wrongest idea ever. (Well, except for those guys who tried russian roulette with an automatic gun, I guess)

And that "graphics don't matter at all" is exactly as wrong as "graphics are the only thing that matter".
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
The choreography is brilliant; Stephen Chow would be proud. I especially enjoyed watching the hordes of Matelites get mauled, the hammy pricks.

I agree that you should make everything less tinted, though. No point in that much action if you can't really see it.

Oh, and if anyone assaults you with criticisms regarding consistency, just tell them you're trying to harken back to the RM2k days of old. That should work.

EDIT: With regards to cutscenes in general, if they fit in with the rest of the game and have decent choreography, by all means, go for it! They'd definitely add 'flavour' to a game IMO.
author=Cozzer
I'll just say that the idea that you can't improve your writing skill is the wrongest idea ever. (Well, except for those guys who tried russian roulette with an automatic gun, I guess)

And that "graphics don't matter at all" is exactly as wrong as "graphics are the only thing that matter".


Not that you can't improve your writing skills. It's that it's unlikely your writing will improve dramatically without a ton a practice. This takes more time than most people have to put into it. I'm sure lots of them would rather work on programming or map building or whatever else they like to do, than sit there and master turn of phrase.
But... getting good at programming or map building or whatever takes as much time as getting good at writing. And why do you assume "they" don't like writing? If they're creating RPGs instead of action games, chances are they have some kind of interest in creating a good story.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9219
I'm just going to talk about this in theory....I like having action sequences and cutscenes in RM games. I think it's a lot of fun. Even if it takes a lot of hard work which I'd say is its major drawback.

One example of a game that did this really, really slickly is In The Name Of The Rose (and its sequel, Until My Finest Hour) by Bloodrose. It's an old one, but you should consider looking it up.

*Watches The Video*

That was really cool, although I'd leave out the part with the pig man (it drags something fierce!) or even better, make it playable! Overall, I think the limitations of battle animations have been well discussed. This reminded me a lot of the games I was making circa 2004ish, with the difference that your tone seemed less serious and your music and choreography was better. But the awful faceset clashing and lengthy non-interactive battle sequences remind me a lot of my own RM output from ~2001-~2005.

Having credits when the game was made by two people that just credit those two people over and over again is laughably preposterous. I know it's fun and cool to be able to intersplice an intro sequence with credits, but why not try actually crediting the people who made all the resources/music used in the game instead of just yourselves with increasingly jokey titles over and over again?

I guess this is justified by it being a comedy game, but I didn't really see much comedy anywhere else, it was more like "AWESOMECOOLFLEX"...done fairly well.

Also: your response to criticism, within this thread, is absolutely terrible. This reminds me of myself during that era, and if I were to be a bit more honest--always. Believe me, you do not want to go down that road. It is really best to grit your teeth and force yourself to be humble and polite and receptive--if you're not a receptacle, then this place will carve a new receptacle out of you where your pride used to be, in the harshest way possible, rubbing their knives with nightshade and salt.

I'd like to talk about the scene on a more macro level: on a story (not WRITING) level there is some dichotomy here. Because they discuss tactics like they're actually going to be using some kind of pseudo-realistic or genre-realistic military tactics (like the A Team) and then presume to just mow down huge hordes of guys like in a DBZ-level realism anime. I mean, this was kind of cool, but it also kept me from really taking what was going on seriously. Then again "comedy game" but I mean it wasn't really funny either, so I don't know.

If you don't think that's feedback on your action scene, then I give up. You're clearly not looking for actual opinions and using this thread as a thin attempt to seek praise for something you spent all afternoon putting together.

My aplogies. This is the best scene I've ever seen and I envy your godly skills at setting event move routes. Keep doing what you're doing—there is no room for improvement. Thanks for posting.

Des, if more people had said shit like that to me when I had been a little noob, and less had been like "here, have this awesome title screen and these free graphics and bla bla bla bla" then some games you enjoyed very much may never have been finished.

Also that was DEFINITELY more than an afternoon's worth of work. That looked like several days of work to me.

the game's comedy, this is the opening, which just sets the stage, not really meant to be funny

This seems problematic; the opening needs to set the tone for the rest of the game.

"We've cut off all avenues of escape" was pretty funny, with the door wide open behind him, but I"m not sure that was intentional.
author=Cozzer
But... getting good at programming or map building or whatever takes as much time as getting good at writing. And why do you assume "they" don't like writing? If they're creating RPGs instead of action games, chances are they have some kind of interest in creating a good story.


I'm saying that people who would rather do programming/writing and not focus on things they're not good at should do what they want. This is a hobby. If you establish that a person wants to/likes writing, then that person does not fit into the classification I was talking about.

author=Max McGee
I'm just going to talk about this in theory....I like having action sequences and cutscenes in RM games. I think it's a lot of fun. Even if it takes a lot of hard work which I'd say is its major drawback.


Unlike me, you'll probably satisfy all the aesthetic requirements. I say go for it. That stuff is fun. I'd love to see it.

author=Max McGee
but why not try actually crediting the people who made all the resources/music used in the game


I want to credit the creators of the graphics, but I honestly have no idea who made them. For example, I found basketball hoops I wanted to use in Monstrous Wars. I asked King of Games if I could use them, and he said he didn't make them.

author=Max McGee
I'd like to talk about the scene on a more macro level: on a story (not WRITING) level there is some dichotomy here. Because they discuss tactics like they're actually going to be using some kind of pseudo-realistic or genre-realistic military tactics (like the A Team) and then presume to just mow down huge hordes of guys like in a DBZ-level realism anime. I mean, this was kind of cool, but it also kept me from really taking what was going on seriously. Then again "comedy game" but I mean it wasn't really funny either, so I don't know.


Yeah, I realized that it's off. However, I really wanted to illustrate that the previous band of heroes was a class above the characters you're about to use. At the same time, despite their physical prowess, I wanted the group to also sound competent. Thus the pseudo realistic tactics.

The main reason that the opening is not playable is so I could align the scene to the soundtrack. It was originally playable.

author=Max McGee
This seems problematic; the opening needs to set the tone for the rest of the game.


I also noticed the disconnect between the opening and the intended tone for the game. I'll put it this way. The underlying story is serious, but everything along the way is comedy relief. This doesn't address your point, unfortunately. I realize there's an issue.

author=Max McGee
Also: your response to criticism, within this thread, is absolutely terrible. This reminds me of myself during that era, and if I were to be a bit more honest--always. Believe me, you do not want to go down that road. It is really best to grit your teeth and force yourself to be humble and polite and receptive--if you're not a receptacle, then this place will carve a new receptacle out of you where your pride used to be, in the harshest way possible, rubbing their knives with nightshade and salt.


As far as criticism goes, I was just responding to Despain. I took everyone else's comments and criticism to heart, and I made no complaints about it. I was, however, frustrated that the conversation was more about my video and less about the topic. For example, you opened up your post on topic. Then you watched the video and switched focus.

That being said. I'm not in a position of need that I should genuflect when someone starts mocking me. RM is a hobby. Being involved in rmn is a part of that hobby. The moment a hobby isn't worth my free time, I'll stop doing it. I'll quit my lacrosse team if the coach is an asshole; it's no different. I got ways of getting through federal tax class other than rmn.


author=Sauce
I'm saying that people who would rather do programming/writing and not focus on things they're not good at should do what they want.
But if they only like programming and dislike writing, why did they choose to make a game of a genre with such a big emphasis on the writing?

Now that I actually watched your video: I kinda assumed you were one of the "they" we're talking about, but it seems your writing isn't bad. Oh well.

About graphics... finding some consistent facesets wouldn't take you much time (there are some very user-friendly facemaker around on the web), and would improve the scene. Why are you so contrary to it? Same goes for changing a bit some battle animations.

I really cannot understand your reaction to criticism. °° Even Despain, in his first comment, was basically saying that your video has potential and two little mistakes were blocking it.
Then you got defensive, he got offensive and Internet happened.
author=Cozzer
I really cannot understand your reaction to criticism. °° Even Despain, in his first comment, was basically saying that your video has potential and two little mistakes were blocking it.
Then you got defensive, he got offensive and Internet happened.

I'm not sure if you were there last night in irc, so I'll put it this way. I was. And despain didn't know that. I heard what he was really saying. Also his post was edited after the fact.

Golbez told me it looked retarded, and I thanked him for the feedback. I'm not against criticism.

It really boils down to the fact that people think I'm looking for praise, and when they see me picking a fight with a critic, I must be offended that my video was criticized. That's not the case, I appreciated all the criticism from everyone else. Despain was pissing me off.
Huh. °° I don't know the whole story (never liked irc), so I won't comment further on that.

Still, even supposing he was actually trying to attack you or something, the points he makes are true (I'm talking about his edited post, I have no idea how it was before).
By making those two changes, you could improve like 50% the quality of the scene with like 15% effort. That's a win.

Still, enough talking about someone else's feedback. Here's mine:
The scene is nice, but a bit too long. Since it's an opening that fault is partially forgiven, but you could improve it by changing the dialogue a bit: other than random tactical things, the characters could drop some hints about the game's main plot to keep the player interested in what is happening, and not only how it's happening.
It would be probably hard to do that while keeping the dialogue natural, but... well, we were talking about writing skills before, weren't we? I suggest you at least try it, and if you really don't like the result you can just revert back to the old scene.
author=Cozzer
Huh. °° I don't know the whole story (never liked irc), so I won't comment further on that.

Still, even supposing he was actually trying to attack you or something, the points he makes are true (I'm talking about his edited post, I have no idea how it was before).
By making those two changes, you could improve like 50% the quality of the scene with like 15% effort. That's a win.


I could send you my notebooks with my written story, and you'll realize that matching facesets aren't possible. I get it, it's important, but it's really not possible. Even handdrawing every single face wouldn't be enough. I'll make a separate thread for the effects of facesets on voice inflection and characterization.

Sacrificing my story to satisfy graphical consistency is almost pointless. If people don't play the game, because they can't stand the contrast, that's too bad. There's plenty of other games for them to try. Hell, I'm sure I'll try a less ambitious game/story with more consistent visuals at some point. Just not this one.

author=Sauce
I could send you my notebooks with my written story, and you'll realize that matching facesets aren't possible. I get it, it's important, but it's really not possible.


It's... kinda strange. As I said, there are some powerful and easy to use faceset makers around. Could you just explain the reason for that? I'm curious.

Still, if you mentioned that from the beginning instead of launching yourself against the very idea of graphics being important, I think the whole thread wuold have taken a different course.
Huh. °° I don't know the whole story (never liked irc), so I won't comment further on that.


there's not much of a story, man. pretty much the same stuff that was said in this thread.

Despain was pissing me off.


apologies, bro. that wasn't my intent. well—it was—but not until after you responded. when i give criticism, i call it like i see it. and your game has some serious graphical downfalls that's preventing you from reaching your full potential.

honestly i love the oldschool rm2k/3 style—there's a definite charm that appeals to me. but that appeal comes from nostalgia, not from any kind of definite quality. when i give someone feedback i give it objectively. your graphics are shit and they detract from an otherwise well-made cutscene.

if you're making an rm2k/3 game for the fun of it—because you want to write a story or create a world—then FUCK YEAH DUDE go for it. i ain't gonna hold you back. i wish you luck, man. but when you post something online, expect people to be dicks. when i'm at my meanest, i'm also a my most constructive. because i speak the truth, bro. release something on the internet and people will nitpick. i say your graphics are lacking because they are, man. it's not an insult. we tryin' to help you better yourself.


author=Cozzer
It's... kinda strange. As I said, there are some powerful and easy to use faceset makers around. Could you just explain the reason for that? I'm curious.

Still, if you mentioned that from the beginning instead of launching yourself against the very idea of graphics being important, I think the whole thread wuold have taken a different course.


I dunno if you saw this in the earlier posts, but this is my first rm game. When I first posted a video 2 months ago, I got the same criticism. I THOUGHT that people saw the choreography, assumed I wasn't a total novice, and held me to a higher standard for my visuals. I was wrong. They go after everyone. I really hated that.

Obviously, RPGs are a total package: visuals, music, story, characterization, gameplay mechanics. The problem is, most gamemakers, even those who spend considerable time and effort in it, aren't good at everything.

I decided to question whether it's better time spent eventing actions scenes or fixing up consistency. Boom, here's a video with horrible graphics, but isn't it kinda cool anyway? Would you rather look a pretty image that does absolutely nothing? How about a pretty game with terrible dialogue? Can you overlook the bad visuals as long as it's got some redeeming characteristics? I'm not talking about marketing the game; I mean actual quality.

The response was a resounding no. It's got potential, but no. I responded by saying, in my opinion, all the multimillion dollar imagery in FF13 couldn't get me to like its cast or the game. It got me to buy it, mission success!, but I didn't like it.

As for why I can't use faceset makers... well... 1/3 of my characters, hundred and hundreds of them, are complete spoofs. Also, seeing certain faces, that you might recognize, used out of context in my game means that that character, before you even hear a word they say, has already been intrinsically characterized.

There's a video in my game profile where Nicolas Cage is a loan shark. It's Nicolas Cage's face. Why Nicolas Cage? Because Nicolas Cage is one creepy mofo. He's a joke unto himself. Even if you don't know anything about My Nicolas Cage, you already think he's like the real one, or at least his movie roles. I can't make a more hilarious loan shark with a facemaker.

It got me to buy it, mission success!, but I didn't like it.


commercial games area different story, dude. they dont give a shit if you LIKE it ornot. by the time you make that decision, they already have yur money
You still seem to assume graphics is more about "marketing" than part of the quality of the game. Oh well.

The point is not graphics, anyway.
How can I put it... if your game scores an 8 out of 10 in an area, I will gladly accept everything else to be a 5/6.
But I cannot overlook a 2, even if you have a 10 in your strong area.
Whichever your "strong area" and your "weak area" are.

Also, I think everybody assumes you post things on forums like this to get feedback on your weak areas, not your strong ones.
I mean, what can I say about your coreography other than "it's good, don't change it"? It is more productive to point out the ways you could bring up your weak areas to a 6.
Consider that it's always way easier to bring a 4 to a 6 than to bring a 7 to a 8.

(By which I'm not saying your graphics are a 2. It's an example.)
author=Cozzer
You still seem to assume graphics is more about "marketing" than part of the quality of the game. Oh well.

The point is not graphics, anyway.
How can I put it... if your game scores an 8 out of 10 in an area, I will gladly accept everything else to be a 5/6.
But I cannot overlook a 2, even if you have a 10 in your strong area.
Whichever your "strong area" and your "weak area" are.

Also, I think everybody assumes you post things on forums like this to get feedback on your weak areas, not your strong ones.
I mean, what can I say about your coreography other than "it's good, don't change it"? It is more productive to point out the ways you could bring up your weak areas to a 6.
Consider that it's always way easier to bring a 4 to a 6 than to bring a 7 to a 8.

I found that second mellynd war game with a 10 in story and a 0 in just about everything else very enjoyable. There was also this other game that used nothing but RTP graphics, kinetic cipher, was also really cool to play.

It's not that graphics are only for marketing. But they're only one of several criteria. It's that people seem to assume that if someone doesn't make a better effort with their graphics, the other elements in the game must be bad. I understand that having quality graphics or an intriguing concept is what gets you noticed, but that doesn't mean games without those can't be good.

And again, originally I wanted to know if people thought action scenes with little 2D pixel characters was cool. That one guy who made Ascension told me a month ago that action scenes in low quality sprites was stupid. If my video had matching graphics, the discussion wouldn't have broken down so badly.

author=Sauce
I found that second mellynd war game with a 10 in story and a 0 in just about everything else very enjoyable. There was also this other game that used nothing but RTP graphics, kinetic cipher, was also really cool to play.

I don't know. I'm kinda big on choosing the right medium for your ideas.
RPGs are a very composed medium; if you make a game with 10 in something and 0 in everything else, that idea would probably have been much better as something else.

Still, general consenus was that your video was cool, wasn't it? Even the harshest critics said that it could be cool with some ajdustments. So, it seems that one guy who made Ascension is in the minority here.