• Add Review
  • Subscribe
  • Nominate
  • Submit Media
  • RSS

Too Easy...?

  • Ephiam
  • 03/31/2013 01:08 PM
  • 4259 views
I designed Heroes of Tsufana with old-shcool GAMES in mind, but based the game-play and difficulty around casual GAMERS. I didn't want to have players grind each and every time they entered a new area, or spend an hour or two leveling-up simply to topple the next storyline boss because the difficulty decided to take a gigantic leap towards the skies. I simply wanted a casual adventure that most people could complete simply by traveling from one plot-point to the next without ever having the need to farm EXP and Gold.

But was that a good decision on my part? Oftentimes I hear/read that the difficulty is what MAKES these kinds of games good, so I'm wondering if it really does need an overhaul in terms of difficulty.

So what are your thoughts on the matter?

Posts

Pages: 1
It's the better of two evils, because hard games have a higher chance of making a player ragequit.


I haven't played the game, but may I recommend two difficulties?
One for casual gamers, and one for those who are willing to grind every once and awhile.

This is a feature I love because it allows for me to design a really hard game without the alienation of those who don't like dieing on every other fight. The only other thing I have to say is make sure you tell the player about this difficulty option.

As another note, I tend to copy, paste, and scale all my fights. I could see you scaling only the boss fights with a conditional branch. Any random battles are meant as trash mobs who could exist as a break to the more punishing boss battles.
I just had a thought. Maybe it could work, maybe not.
You could release a "Hard Mode patch", and all it is is the *.ldt file containing enemies with higher numbers. The player could simply drop it in the main project folder, overwriting the old one.

Otherwise, I agree with Clareain. Too high a difficulty and players will quit the game, never bothering to really enjoy it.
Difficulty should be determined not by enemy statistics but how you design the monster groups and bosses themselves and the options available to the player to win. Numbers/statistics should come last (or at least not first) when designing the enemies. It is possible to make a moderately difficult game where you actually have to think to win without requiring intense grinding. If people don't want to be clever when fighting battles, the option exists to grind to power through, but the difficulty should never be at the point where grinding is required.
author=Shoobinator
Difficulty should be determined not by enemy statistics but how you design the monster groups and bosses themselves and the options available to the player to win. Numbers/statistics should come last (or at least not first) when designing the enemies. It is possible to make a moderately difficult game where you actually have to think to win without requiring intense grinding. If people don't want to be clever when fighting battles, the option exists to grind to power through, but the difficulty should never be at the point where grinding is required.


Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, it's the most important part, lol.

I like looking at world of warcraft raiding for my designs. When I think of a boss with 2 difficulties, I think of normal and heroic. Some skills on normal can easily be dealt with... but on heroic either you die due to not paying attention, or you grind.
Then it's just a matter of making sure the information is clear.
Otherwise, people will think it's unbalanced right off the bat. This can be pretty hard to do.
author=Clareain_Christopher
author=Shoobinator
Difficulty should be determined not by enemy statistics but how you design the monster groups and bosses themselves and the options available to the player to win. Numbers/statistics should come last (or at least not first) when designing the enemies. It is possible to make a moderately difficult game where you actually have to think to win without requiring intense grinding. If people don't want to be clever when fighting battles, the option exists to grind to power through, but the difficulty should never be at the point where grinding is required.
Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, it's the most important part, lol.

I like looking at world of warcraft raiding for my designs. When I think of a boss with 2 difficulties, I think of normal and heroic. Some skills on normal can easily be dealt with... but on heroic either you die due to not paying attention, or you grind.
Then it's just a matter of making sure the information is clear.
Otherwise, people will think it's unbalanced right off the bat. This can be pretty hard to do.


Yeah, basically, are the battles fun (i.e. engaging)? If not, you probably have yourself a button-masher-to-win game, and if you want that kind of gameplay go play Mario Party >.> lol
And that's how this game was originally designed. No grinding is required, but the player still has to use some common sense and strategy if they wish to get through whatever challenges they face without completely exhausting their team.

But that's how things work NOW! I sorta want to take a step back through time and make a game difficult... just BECAUSE! Y'know, how a lot of it was cranked up to MAX just to inflate the play-time of the game. Oftentimes I see people say that's one of the main factors that make these NES-inspired projects "unique," and that without that weirdly forced difficulty then they're not all that different than everything else except that they, well... look older? Hahaha.

I'd really like to make a moderately cheap, HARD experience for once. But I'm usually too bound by fairness. And I know that's not what people really look for and will probably ask why anyone would ever want to be DELIBERATELY CHEAP, but I just think it would help in... capturing the spirit? Style? Even now in trying to make a "Hard Mode" for Heroes of Tsufana, if I feel things are even a BIT too unfair, I always have to adjust everything so there's never really any considerable boost to the difficulty in the end. =P
Maybe for "Hard mode", make it so that you must play with one less hero in your party. I'm not sure what that would entail with your game as far as difficulty goes, since I haven't played it, but that's another direction possibly that you could take.
Then I'm afraid one character's just going to have WAYYYY too many skills, and also have to tackle an extra role that will making controlling them in battle and forming strategies quite hectic.

Another strange thing I've run into that sorta un-related to this entire difficulty topic is that the way I've set up the AGL stat for the game makes the "Speed-Up" patch for Rm2K3 kinda useless. It doesn't do a thing! Hahahhaha! I guess it's because this game uses very low numbers for that stat that RARELY change (between 10-15) as opposed to most other 2K3 titles. Huh. Oh well!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Time and difficulty aren't the same thing. The idea that adding difficulty and adding grinding are linked is faulty. Adding grinding will REMOVE difficulty. If the player can overcome obstacles by grinding easier obstacles, then he can effectively bypass ever even experiencing hard ones.

If you want your game to be hard, try adding an experience limiter of some sort. Perhaps a level cap that increases after each boss, to prevent the player from levelling any higher than he's supposed to be. Or perhaps diminishing returns from grinding, so that after you've levelled higher than the enemies they no longer give exp. Maybe cause enemy groups to only give exp the first time you kill them, and re-killing the same group provides no reward, since you've already learned everything you can from them.
While I grew up with NES games, I prefer easier difficulty mainly because I just don't have the time anymore to sit through lengthy hours of grinding. There's way too many RM games at my disposal, and if one takes too long to grasp my interest, it's at risk of being set aside and ultimately forgotten.

That said, perhaps keep the main storyline in its simple form, but spike the difficulty in some of the optional content, as long as the player feels justified in the rewards. Rewards can come in the way of skills, loot, gold, powerful weapons, armor, mini games, but also adding storyline that the player may otherwise not receive.
I should point out that in distributing a modified *.ldt file, you can also change enemy group compositions, the skills they have, AI, et al. Just don't forget to overwrite the correct battles, or the player will accidentally fight Polar Muffs in the Lava Cave.
Another option is to make certain bosses incredibly difficult, while the rest are first-tryable. Phantasy Star 4 did this with Zio and Lassic. It makes those particular boss encounters more personal, and they come with a real sense of accomplishment (even if all the player did was grind for an hour).

Also, an exp cap in a NES-styled RPG is a horrible idea. It contradicts the oldschool play style.
I know that time=/=difficulty and all of that, but with this project I was trying to stay as true as possible to the NES style of doing things (maps, story, game-play, etc.) but I think I was a little skimpy on the difficulty. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine and comfortable with how it is currently as it caters to more casual players (with the small exception of only being able to save in towns for the most part), I'm just curious as to WHAT IF?

The matter was brought to my attention and made me question a few things when I read somewhere around here that several people thought that the style (NES) and difficulty went hand-in-hand. It's what made this kind of game unique, and without having that SUPER HARD, GRINDY approach to things it was just a simpler version of any other game (visually, at least). I don't necessarily agree, but it still roused my interest in other people's opinion on the matter.

I guess that when people think "old-school, NES-styled RPG" they associate it to something fairly difficult and sort of EXPECT a grind.

Although to be quite honest, I don't think much of a "hard mode" in the style that I've been thinking of will be very possible with this game. The dungeons and enemies are designed to slowly wear your party down rather than IMMEDIATELY pose a threat, sort of like the original Final Fantasy. The exceptions in this game's case being its bosses--90% of them having a save point before them so that if a player were to lose due to the sudden increased difficulty, they wouldn't have to trek all the way back through the dungeon just to potentially lose again. I 'm not THAT cruel. =P

I just think that all of these "new" and unique ideas on how to control the difficulty and play-style of a game clash with the type of game I'm trying to (or was trying to) make. I was limiting myself to how most older RPGs work. And because most of them back in the day needed to milk their play-time for all it was worth, they had an inflated sense of difficulty and "challenge" which usually required grinding. Catch my drift? Hahaha. I'm just wondering if I can capture that same feeling and approach, as ass-backwards as it may be.
imo adding level caps would take an option away from the player. Difficulty should not be made by taking options away from the player, but instead by forcing them to use what they already have in a different way. Alternatively, I don't think adding grinding as a requirement for victory, especially retroactively, should be the way to go. This would be another way to limit the players' options because there would be statistically almost no chance to advance past certain areas without first reaching a certain level.

I'm sure you already have some kind of general level you should be at for each boss fight, etc., that may not require grinding and be lower than if you had required more grinding, but you should expect the player to fight at least some of their fights and not run from all of them because otherwise, that'd largely defeat the purpose of the game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Shoobinator
imo adding level caps would take an option away from the player. Difficulty should not be made by taking options away from the player, but instead by forcing them to use what they already have in a different way.
Those are... the same thing. Difficulty is inherently ALL ABOUT taking options away from the player. Like, if you think about it, that's all difficulty is. Removing some of the valid options, so some of the options that would have resulted in success now result in failure. I mean, "win without even trying" and "win by mashing the A button" are options that you want to remove, right?

It's true that old RPGs were really grindy. I don't think that's something you want to replicate. However, you can replicate the feeling they produced: stuff is too powerful for you right now and you need to become stronger before you stand a chance. Instead of grinding, you could do this via some other type of powerup: equipment, for example. Put powerful equipment in chests that require thorough exploration, battles, even minibosses. Stick them in seperate, totally optional areas instead of one screen away from the main path. And then balance the enemies with the assumption that the player got every single one of these items.

Finding new spells is also another way of getting a similar effect. Equipment and spells are both very basic things that could be found hidden throughout the game in the oldest RPGs, so this wouldn't interfere with your old-schoolness. They're tools you can use without feeling like you're cheating. But yeah, if you don't want the difficulty to be based as heavily on grinding, then simply move more of the player's growth from their level to things they find in treasure chests. And if you want the game to be harder, then make them work for those chests.

Edit: I do think two difficulty modes would be better than just making it this hard for everyone. One mode that's balanced with the expectation that the player will hunt down and work for all the out-of-the-way treasures, and one mode that's balanced with the expectation that he'll skip them.
author=LockeZ
Those are... the same thing. Difficulty is inherently ALL ABOUT taking options away from the player. Like, if you think about it, that's all difficulty is. Removing some of the valid options, so some of the options that would have resulted in success now result in failure. I mean, "win without even trying" and "win by mashing the A button" are options that you want to remove, right?

By option, I mean a choice that the player can make. I see what you mean by 'valid option'. Yeah, difficulty is achieved by taking away 'valid' options because you must do something in a more particular way, but semantics aside, what I meant was that you shouldn't take away options/choices from the player as a means of achieving difficulty (e.g. level caps or perhaps another example: you HAVE to buy that ONE particular item from that ONE particular secret shop to beat the next boss with the new boost in difficulty). Ideally, the options/choices should still be available; it's just that some of them will no longer be as effective.

Edit: I don't think that previous example worked as well as I thought it did. Something perhaps a little more clear: you can't use weapons in the next boss fight.

While actually taking away options/choices is one way to increase difficulty, I would not advocate doing so very often. Although, on the flip side, it can spice things up in certain circumstances. So I guess do it sparingly.
When I first released my game (Night of the Living Noobyas) for testing, I had played through it multiple times and thought the difficulty curve was just right. However, my testers came back and told me that it was too tedious. So I adjusted the stats, the drops, the EXP, the damage output on my skills and weapons, and I thought the game became way too easy. However, the comments I've received state they feel the game is very well balanced.

So... it goes to show that the developer will almost always believe their game is easier than it may actually be. That and the fact that gamers don't want to grind anymore. I'm not saying a player should stand around and grind for an hour just to traverse a four-room dungeon, but some bit of extra grind should be expected, be it a touch encounter and the player must revisit a room or two for extra combat, or random encounter and the player must walk around to find a few extra battles... at least when the game mimics older rpg's.

However, when you see the comments over at other sites (such as RMW), the top three things most gamers hate and consider the worst mistakes of older NES games are:

1. The inability to save anywhere - required to use save points in a dungeon, can only save on the world map, etc.
2. Random Encounters - everything has to be touch encounter.
3. Level Grinding.

The end result is to either:

A. Make a game you want at the difficulty you want, but expect that it will only appeal to a certain audience, and even then may cause for people to quit and complain or...

B. Make a game that will appeal to the masses, even if you feel it's not very challenging. At least then you will know more people will download and play through it.

Edit: I've heard people say to offer options (easy or difficult). The problem is, unless there is a reward, most people will just take the easy route. If you do offer an option of difficulty, I recommend including extra loot, mini games, unique skills, or even story content on the difficulty setting just to encourage more people to try that options.

And of course, there is always the New Game +, which offers even more opportunities.

For example, let's say the normal path to get a certain type of ending (we'll just call it Ending A) is easy. However, a lot of the side quests and maybe even the path to get the real ending (we'll call it Ending B) is hard. The player can try for the harder path first, but if they can't, they can always play the easy path first and then reload with their EXP/GOld, etc., upon finishing the game and then take on the harder path, which would then be easier for them.
author=amerk
When I first released my game (Night of the Living Noobyas) for testing, I had played through it multiple times and thought the difficulty curve was just right. However, my testers came back and told me that it was too tedious. So I adjusted the stats, the drops, the EXP, the damage output on my skills and weapons, and I thought the game became way too easy. However, the comments I've received state they feel the game is very well balanced.

So... it goes to show that the developer will almost always believe their game is easier than it may actually be. That and the fact that gamers don't want to grind anymore. I'm not saying a player should stand around and grind for an hour just to traverse a four-room dungeon, but some bit of extra grind should be expected, be it a touch encounter and the player must revisit a room or two for extra combat, or random encounter and the player must walk around to find a few extra battles... at least when the game mimics older rpg's.


You seem to imply that harder difficulty is tedious, but I would imagine that easier difficulty would be too tedious and too hard would lead to frustration, so maybe you meant to say something else or the player comments were not clear/poorly written. Unless you mean that losing and repeating parts of the game is tedious, or there is grinding or other forms of fake difficulty that doing is just boring.

There is a whole other thread over in the Development forum about this (challenge vs. frustration).

It basically comes down to: there are ways to make your game more accessible like different difficulty modes, BUT you have to consider, "Will my game still be the same experience as I intended?".
Pages: 1